SALT OF THE EARTH No. 63 WINTER 2007-2008 P.37-58 DEBATE ON UNIVERSAL ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM

p. 37 The infallibility of the ordinary universal magisterium (MOU) is a frequently used by the defenders of Vatican II argument. Forced to admit that the council did not set out to solemn definitions (infallible), they con-crochent the MOU as their last chance to "dogmatic" a council which was intended primarily pastoral. We have repeatedly explained here why the MOU may not be invoked in favor of Vatican II

1.

Abbe Ber-nard Lucien comes wearing the contradiction in a book published by Editions La Nef under the title: The Degrees of authority of the Magisterium

2.

This book contains a number of articles appearing in the journal Seat of Wisdom. In a new chapter Abbe Lucien takes part those who refuse certain texts of the Council, including the declaration Dignitatis Humanae on religious

freedom.'sBrother Pierre-Marie Abbe Calderon meet critical here made to them. The Salt of the Earth-.

I  MAGISTERIUM THE CONCILIAR IS INFAILLIBLE? BROTHER BY PIERRE-MARIE OP

THE POSITION OF THE FATHER Father Bernard Lucien Lucien think that Vatican II was infallible, at least in its "focal points". Here is a diagram of his argument:

p. 1 38. - The universal ordinary magisterium (MOU) of the Church is infallible. 2. - But Vatican II exercised the MOU in its central points. 3. - So Vatican II was infallible, at least in the "central point" of his teaching. 1. - On the first proposal, Father Lucien described the MOU:

The "ordinary and universal magisterium" is the Magisterium exercised routinely, daily, each time by the Pope and subordinates with moral unanimitybishops.

Itmagisterium is infallible when he proposes a doctrine as revealed, or as necessarily linked to the revelation, or as some, or as to keep permanently

3.

2. - As regards the second proposal of its reasoning, the following assertions Father Lucien: Some passages of Vatican II are covered by the infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium. These are the passages where a doctrine is directly affirmed, and further wherein this doctrine is presented as revealed, or as necessarily linked to the revelation, or as absolutely mandatory for all the faithful. These are indeed different ways to say that doctrine is to believe (or hold) definitively and irrevocably

4.

Father Lucien explained that the MOU should not be confused with "the canon Lérinien"

5.

St. Vincent of Lerins, in his Commonitorium said to believe what is taught "everywhere, always and by all (quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus

6)."

This is a test that ensures the orthodoxy of doctrine, to find out what is in the Tradition.

Several authors have thought that the MOU is infallible, it must respect the Magisterium this rule, and in particular the teaching he always (semper) the same thing, that is to say it again for a while.

Under these conditions, the ordinary teaching of the council, s it is new, can not claim infallibility.

p. 39 This view has been defended in particular by Canon René Berthod

7,

by Michel Martin

8

and Arnaud de Las extra

9.

Father Lucien fight this opinion: it is not necessary, he said, that the MOU is infallible, that the Magisterium is exercised for a while. Just as all the bishops (moral unanimity), at a given time, teach the same doctrine as revealed or as necessarily linked to the revelation that one is in the presence of a magis-ter infallible.

1

2

View The Salt of the Earth 34 (p. 48), 35 (p. 47-52), 47 (p. 60-69 and 91-95), 49 (p. 18-19 and -43!) etc. Abbot Bernard Lucien , The Degrees of magisterial authority (The question of infallibility. Catholic Doctrine. Developments re-cents. 3

4

5

Current debates), Abbot LUCIEN LUCIEN The Abbot, The On this point, we Feucherolles, La Nef, 2007 (230 pages).

Degrees of magisterial authority, p. 16. Degrees of magisterial authority, p. 159. agree with Father Lucien, as he himself notes (p. 137), but give the references where we present our point of view. Here they are, with regard to the Salt of the Earth: The Salt of the Earth 26, p. 47, The Salt of the Earth June

7,

34, p. 47-48, The Salt of the Earth 35, p. 45-46. Saint Vincent de LÉRINS, Commonitorium, c. II, RJ 2168. Father RENE MARIE "Infallibility ordinary magisterium of the Church," Una Voce Helvetica (Chalet Snow, CH 1634 La Roche), Jan.  September

8

1981. Rome and elsewhere No. 15, November-December 1980. Family and School 145 (1999) Action, p. 2-33, Family Action and School 183 (February 2006), p. 3-27.

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But that's exactly what happened at the Council thinks Father Lucien, regarding the central points of his teaching.

3. - The third proposition of his argument, Father Lucien gives as an example the cen-tral teaching declaration Dignitatis Humanae. He writes:

Let quite accurate: that we support here and various authors 'traditionalists' deny is that the infallible-libilité the ordinary and universal magisterium covers central affirmation of Dignitatis Humanae, statement in the first paragraph of DH, 2 and we recall:

"The Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of both individuals and social groups and of any human power whatsoever, so that no one is to be forced to act against or prevented his conscience to act within bounds, according to his conscience, in private and in public, alone or with others. It further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as did know the word of God and by reason itself.

"Thisis obviously the the most elementary literary analysis shows that this passage is really central in the statement, and directly targeted. In addition, we have in this case a quasi-official confirmation of the "centrality". The theological commission to examine, integrate or reject corrections requested by the Fathers had in fact asserted in the report provided at the 164

th

General Meeting (19 November 1965). [...] "[Response Committee] - The full text is required to place where it is: it's like the focal point of the statement. Also when it comes to the foundation, it is not provided arguments.

"Sothe commission says that our way is the focal point of the statement, and she says that the statement is part of the foundation of this

p. Central 40, and is therefore desired for itself, and can not be relegated to a single row of argument

1.

*** Unlike the Abbe Lucien, we believe that the Council's teaching is not covered the infallibility of the MOU

2.

We base our argument on two reasons: 1. - To join the MOU requires that education is presented as a truth to believe or hold a firm and final. However, the Council, the teaching has not been presented in this way.

2. - The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Church is the teaching of the bishops dispersed. However, the Council, the bishops were precisely met.

Mr. Father Lucien takes in his book, our second reason. The second reason is less important than the first, as we explained in The Salt of the Earth 41 (p. 239): "This is secondary because, since the end of the Council, the bishops now scattered continue to teach Errors of this Council.

"Themain reason why we say that the Council's teaching on religious freedom (for example) is not covered by the MOU is that the conciliar magisterium does not appear as a teacher of truths to believe or hold firmly and finally

3.

That said, since the Father Lucien criticize us on our second reason [the ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Church is the teaching of the bishops dispersed], we will consider his arguments. If they are better than ours, we will not trouble him right.

ARGUMENTS OF AUTHORITY In a theological question, the arguments from authority are the most important. We have cited to defend several autoour

pview.41 authorities, including the Council of Trent, Pope Pius IX, the preparatory drawings of the last two councils and the DTC

4.

Father Lucien does not examine these texts. It simply concede that "a cursory reading of several official docuмents (to varying degrees) may give the impression of an identification between" ordinary and universal magisterium "and" dispersed magisterium "." He adds:

Finally, theologians before Vatican II, expressed as if they identified "ordinary and universal magisterium" and "dispersed magisterium" [p encountered. 170]. So that the Father Lucien himself acknowledges that "several official docuмents" and "theologians" are expressed as

2

January

Abbot See by LUCIEN, eg Degrees The Church and authority Counter Church's magisterium, the council p . Vatican 160-161.

II, Proceedings of the  nd

2

congress of theological Si Si No No, in January 1996, Ed. Publications authority

3and receive E of Vatican Rome, II, 1996, Proceedings p. 4the 287

th andsq Symposium, The Salt of the Earth 35, Winter 2000-2001, theology of Paris, Paris, This lack of conciliar magisterium, which forbade him to teach infallibly is p. 32-63 (especially pp. 45-52.) Auto-Father Calderon published in The Salt of the Earth (47, 55 and 60), and in the book Authority 2006, p.99-150.

Reception and explained at length in the articles of Vatican II, M. Proceedings of the

4

th

Symposium 4

The 2006.View theological texts and references of Paris in

Salt of the Earth 35, pp.Paris,.46-49. Include the preparatory regimen Vatican Cardinal Ottaviani :: "The body of legitimate pastors and doctors of the Church [...] [has] the prerogative of infallibility when each teacher with au-thority in his diocese they agree in the same school with the Roman Pontiff as witnesses of faith in the doctrine of faith to pass. " See The Salt of the Earth 34, p. 47-48

2.



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We.To defend his position, Father Lucien, he does not cite a single text, intervention Zinelli Bishop, a member of the deputation of the faith, the Vatican Council:

The agreement of the bishops dispersed has the same value as when combined: assistance was indeed promised to the formal union of the bishops, and not just their physical union

2.

This text can be printed. But when we look at the context, we see that Bishop Zinelli says a draft anathema on solemn definitions:

If anyone says that the consent of the scattered Church has no value for a ruling dogma faith, and that, therefore, it is quite necessary that the bishops meet to define matters of faith and morals, it is anathema

3.

In this text, Bishop Zinelli not speaking as a member of the deputation of faith, but as Bishop of Tre-designed. It considers the case where you renounce define the dogma of papal infallibility (due to

p. 42 opposition of some bishops who considered it inappropriate definition), and it still offers to give instruction on question (in the form of four guns), so join a large number of bishops. In this draft anathema it to a definition by the Pope, which rallied a part of the episcopate, or is ap-puyée a part of the episcopate. He explains that it is not necessary to bring the bishops to this definition. He does not speak of the MOU, but the conditions that allow the pope to make an infallible definition.

Scattered bishops The agreement in question here is an agreement to allow the bishops to the pope "to decide a dogma of faith" of "define matters of faith and morals."

We are not in the case of ordinary magisterium, which is not intended to define dogmas, but to bestow doctrine, much less in the case of the universal ordinary magisterium exerted by the whole episcopate, not the Pope alone.

Father Lucien therefore can not state this text to support his thesis

4.

We could stop here our discussion. Indeed, while we have several arguments of authority for our thesis, Father Lucien can not name any for his.

However, as Father Lucien accuses us of "completely ignoring the real cause ofthe infallibility of the universal magisterium, every time

"5,

.continuing somewhat this review

THE REAL CAUSE OF THE MOU INFALLIBILITY In The Salt of the Earth 35 (p. 48) we wrote:

When all the bishops spread throughout Earth teach the same thing as belonging to faith, because of their unanimity can not be their common origin, namely the Apostolic Tradition. If their teaching is common, the only reason is that they draw from the same source: the Apostolic Traditionteaching:.

But if the bishops met, you can find other reasons unanimously  Can be pressure, influences

6,

etc.. This is precisely what happened at Vatican II. If you had asked

p. 43 the Fathers, before coming to the Council, while they were still dispersed, if the Council's teaching on religious liberty was part of the faith of the Church, it is clear that the vast majority, if not unanimously , replied in the negative. But the Council, after four years of pressure, after returning six times the load (for the state-ment on religious freedom), it has managed to bend almost all

7.

Father Lucien says:

Father Pierre-Marie so completely ignores the real cause of the infallibility of the universal magisterium, every time. This case, it is Our Lord himself always acting so now, over the centuries, as Head of the Church. This is the same doctrine of the Mystical Body. Our Lord is permanently

invisible-1

P. 170. We believe that this finding should retain Father Lucien qualify our position of "extravagance" (p. 138). Seat of Wisdom magazine in its issue 101, which devotes 15 pages to let the book of Father Lucien, she calls on our thesis "fanciful"2,

MANSI  t. 51 (p. neck. 114).

676 A. Father Lucien cites this text in his book on page 171, but it does not give the reference. It merely refers to one of his own works dating from 1984. It is not easier for those who want to check the reference and context. 3

"If quis Dixerit, adsensum Ecclesiae dispersæ non valere ad statuendum dogma fidei ac proinde necessarium Omnino esse ut epis-copi

4congregentur authority of Archbishop ad Zinelli res fidei is morum and the only definiendas that falls anathema sit on brother ". (MANSI, vol. 51, col. 673).

Augustin Aubry (the author of the article Seat of Wisdom 101) for it May

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Abbot particular, LUCIEN, qualify and our thesis "visionary."

The Degrees of authority of the magisterium, p. 177.

It is understandable most of the bishops at the last council sought to know what the Pope thought 7

Bishop to follow his advice.

Lefebvre explained that the bishops gathered in Rome for a council a few weeks (this is what thought John XXIII summoning), eventually getting bored. They were often poorly housed, they were impatient to be away from their diocese. They were in a hurry to finish. Also, when changed the declaration on religious freedom by adding a sentence to say that this statement does not contradict the traditional teaching of the Church, the opposition dropped considerably. However, following the state-ment contradicts many traditional teaching of the Church.

March



1ment and visibly. Invisibly, by himself and by the Holy Spirit to

send.It seems rather that it is the Father Lucien which ignores the nature of the Magisterium, and more generally the nature of causality.

Our Lord, head and head of the Church, assists (the Holy Spirit) invisibly Magisterium ("I am with you all days" Mt 28, 20), but this does not remove their human agents seconds and visible way of acting.

The Holy Spirit invisibly assist the Church so to ensure visible transmission of Revelation every time, human, visibly, from hand to hand

2,

from the Apostles to us. We can see this transmission, and when we see that there is unanimity in education usu-ally of the Bishops of the whole world, we are confident both in reason

3

at the level of faith

four

that theeducation back to the Apostles and is part of the revelation.

Consider now the case of bishops assembled in council.

p. 44 If a council was wrong in a definition (to which all are bound to comply), the Church would have failed: Our Lord therefore will ever, councils are infallible in their definitions

5.

But if a council taught an error without defining (and thus without imposing as required), some bishops (minority council or absent) could resist and continue to transmit the true faith, and after a while, cook their . colleagues

indefectibility The Church does not always require the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium of the councils, and it requires that the ordinary magisterium of the bishops dispersedunderstand.:

This is what Father Lucien did not  for him, the meeting of bishops in council or their dispersion diocese is an accidental difference

6.

In fact, this difference is not accidental in terms of faith, since in one case all bishops are in-volved and indefectibility the Church is directly involved (if all the world's bishops were wrong in their ordinary magisterium, the Church would have failed in faith), while in the other case all the bishops are not involved and indefectibility is not immediately engaged (if a council is wrong in a regular education, some Bishops can withstand and then return to their colleagues

7).

p. 45 This difference is not accidental in relation to the right. We explained how the pressure can be exerted in a council. This is probably the reason why Pope Pius XI, well advised by Cardinal Billot, waived convene a council:

We know that the Vatican Council had to be interrupted because of the war of 1870. Pius XI, who wanted to continue the work of the council consulted his compass on whether to call the bishops to complete Will tican I. According to research conducted by Giovanni Caprile twenty-six responses are preserved in the Vatican archives. Only two Cardinals answered in the negative: the Austrian Cardinal Andreas Frühwirth OP (1845 - 1933) and Cardinal Billot SJ's argument Billot is every day more current because it seems to describe - forty years before its time - climate and atmosphere of Vatican II. It seems reason Billot, that the era of councils

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2

3

Abbot Expression In LUCIEN, The Degrees of magisterial authority, p. . 177

is the Council of Trent: "quasi per manus traditæ" (DS 1501). the level of reason, because such unanimity is not sufficient reason if it comes from a common source, namely4.

the Apostolic Tradition  In terms of faith, as faith tells us that the Church can not be universally in error, which would be the case if all the bishops5

taughtRecall that a conciliar definition everyone in his diocese, is a proposal which is the same error as being firmly held by all Catholics.

solemnly taught as a compulsory to believe. The latter definition 6

Father Lucien conciliar refers is that the words of the Bishop of Zinelli infallibility, pope, when he interpreter of Vatican through,I

asexplained. - Father Lucien we re-close here to oppose education revealed: "The words of our Lord [Mt 28, 19-20] state assistance permanent (a" being with ") and make no mention of the dispersed or held state: it would be contrary to the teaching revealed that pre-tender assistance of our Lord the Magisterium cease due to a circuмstance that his promise is no respecter "[p. 175]. - But the promise of our Lord did not mention either of the four conditions indicated by Vatican I for papal infallibility, it does not say that the Magisterium is infallible in its "focal points"; etc.. The whole doctrine of the Church 7

A note on the infallibility about is the unanimity required not exposed in detail in that the ordinary magisterium of the word Savior.

Either universal. For Father Lucien, if 90% of the bishops expressed their agreement with the Pope, it is the presence of the MOU (p. 184). Father Lucien would it not influenced by modern democratic mentality? In reality, the question seems simple. The universal ordinary magisterium is when a doctrine is sufficiently exposed by some to be known throughout the Church as a doctrine of faith to hold (or necessarily related to faith). When no bishop (including the pope) did condemn, we can consider that the majority of the episcopate is united. If manifest dissent, must it be ordered by a sufficiently authoritative voice (by the Pope or any authority with the implicit approval of the Pope) for the majority doctrine continues to represent the MOU despite this opposition - tion. - In our case, Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer have publicly stated their opposition to the errors of the Council. This opposition was sufficiently well known (the open letter they addressed to Pope November 21, 1983 where they declare to die-that "the declaration Dignitatis Humanae of Vatican II affirms the existence of a natural fake human right in reli-gious, unlike papal teachings formally deny such a blasphemy "was even published in the DC 1984, No 1874, p. 544-547), and the opposition has never been convicted doctrinally. That would be enough to ensure that there is no universalization ty of ordinary magisterium, assuming that the other conditions of the MOU were met (including the new doctrines-seignées since Vatican II were imposed as to be held).

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Ecuмenicalis finally over, because of the difficulties and dangers they contain, including: excessive extension of debates, the large number of participants, the difficulty for the Fathers of secrecy, they are besieged by a swarm of journalists of all countries, they are provided with all the means that science and the most modern customs now put at their disposal, the immediate impact, out of the conciliar aula, any discussion of the lesser confrontation, the preponderance of certain national blocks, and the excessive length of the entire Council, the danger of extremist elements - the modernists - seize the Council "to the revolution, in 1789 a new object of their dreams and hopes ". (The quoted text is from the pen of Cardinal Billot see Catholic Thought No. 170, September-October 1977, pp. 48 and 49.). Would have said Billot by attending the Second Vatican Council, manipulated by periti, influenced by the "marx-media" invaded by Germanic clouds preparing the October Revolution?

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INFALLIBILITYOF THE ORDINARY IN MAGISTERIUM council of foregoing explanations, it should not conclude too quickly that the ordinary magisterium would never infallible in a council.

p. 46 In fact, the council participates in the infallibility of the pope

2.

Definitions in the case, he participated in the infallibility of the Pope speaking ex cathedra outside the definitions, it is infallible as the pope in his ordinary magisterium

But the ordinary magisterium of the Pope can be infallible. On this point the position of Dom Paul Nau seems balanced: for there infallibility must be continuity and consistency of thepapal

three

teaching.Therefore the ordinary papal magisterium must be repeated for some time to be infallible

4.

Thus, for the ordinary magisterium of a council is infallible, there must be continuity and consistency of the conciliar teaching

5.

Father Lucien think mainstream education of a council is infallible in "focal points" concept again and elusive. If by "central point" he heard the definitions, we would agree. But in this case, Digni-tatis Humanae is not infallible, as Pope Paul VI himself admitted that the Council "has avoided enacting solemn dogmatic definitions engaging the infallibility of the magisterium"

6.

Note, however, that the Council's ordinary magisterium, even when it is not infallible, has great authority. The same is true of ordinary magisterium of the Pope in his most important docuмents (such as a great encyclical). Some theologians believe even he would never have allowed a simple faithful to criticize such teaching

7.

P. 47 Therefore, to enable us to question Vatican II, we have put forward other reasons

8.

*** In conclusion, the reasons for the Father Lucien we seem very weak, and we continue to believe that Vatican II was a mistake, even in the "central point" of his teachingCouncil:.

Father Lucien exaggerates the authority of the  exaggeration in that he remained close sedevacantists to the point that it is common to refer simply their works to criticize our position

9.

This first error on the authority of the Council, Father Lucien adds a second: he thinks that the declaration Dignitatis Humanae is not wrong in its "central point"fallacies.

We have repeatedly refuted this error, explaining the  of Father Lucien

10.

On this point he did not

in-1

Introduction Gustavo CORBI, "Billot and Vatican II" in the work of Louis Billot, The error of liberalism (El error del liberalismo Cruz2,

y Fierro  1978, Argentina, p. 28 and 29). The fact that the bishops to the pope added increases the solemnity of the act, but does not increase the degree of the Holy Spirit. March

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A Dom P. NAU, "The ordinary papal magisterium, theological place" Thomistic Review, July-September 1956, p. . 406 ff

sign that infallibility seems to be: because of the primacy of the See of Peter, if the Pope repeats for a while the same doctrine, without protests in the episcopate, he are necessarily accepted by the whole episcopate and is found in the case of the infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium. The acceptance by the whole episcopate is a sign of the infallibility of the papal magisterium, it is not the cause, the cause being a special assistance of the Church of5

RomeFather.

Lucien therefore wrong to criticize the canon Berthod. Undoubtedly it says it ("it is necessary that there be continuity in time to have an infallible ordinary magisterium") is incorrect if it means the ordinary magisterium of the bishops dispersed, but6

it isHearing exact of 12 January 1966 which concerns cited in the magisterium of Salt in council.

grounded 35, p. 37-38. We give this place other texts that prove widely 7

There is only the Council did not want to use the extraordinary magisterium. Father Lucien himself acknowledges (footnote 46, p. 217).

Probably no such error in the ordinary teaching of the ecuмenical councils before Vatican II. - If this is the case, we must caution the popes led and approved these councils. It is suggested that this caution to Popes Pius XI and Pius XII to abandon their original intention to convene a council. They were well aware of the difficulties of such an enterprise in our time risks. - Pope John XXIII did not have this caution. He even had the great imprudence - Paul VI share - to promote the progressive wing refused to consider the teaching of the Church and had relied on the "new September

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View View View Authority notes the particular theology "86 and p. reception: 221, "" The inspiration that freedom of religious council returns II.,

modernistVatican articles:  Paris, 2006, pp. 99-150 Gather in Salt of the Earth 60, pp. 165-180....

the abbot Ricossa and Father Murro published in Sodalitium. mistake the Father Lucien ... and other "" in The Salt of the Earth 2, p. 110-114 (see also in the same issue: p 8 and p 23-24..) And "Brief refutation of the thesis of Father Lucien" in The Salt of the Earth 56, p. 184-186.

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pledged to debate with us. Would it anything we meet-

II  LUCIDITÉ FOR CATHOLIC PRIEST BY ALVARO Calderon

Father Bernard Lucien has recently published a book where he lists some of his articles on the teaching of the Church and complete with a critique of the "traditionalists" positions on the doctrinal authority of Vatican II. Judging by his writings, the author is respectable in its doctrine and respectful of his opponents. Since, moreover, he took the trouble to read our articles - which is no small

p. 48 case - it deserves, unlike other

one,

that we meet him in a suitable manner. To keep the order of the discussion, we first consider its response to the criticisms we made ​​it before, and then we will respond to critics that we did here. The title of each part relates to the main theme therein Treaty.

THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN MAGISTERIUM ORDINARY AND EXTRAORDINARY MAGISTERIUM Father Lucien argues that the Second Vatican Council infallibly defines certain doctrines, not by way of extraordinary magisterium, but the ordinary and universal magisterium. In our first article

2,

we placed his opinion in our fifth objection and, in responding to this objection, we were both critical to our opponent

-The first on the way to understand what it means to "define". For this verb can have two meanings: accurately define concepts or ascertain a doubtful question (to end debate). However, in the con-text of the Magisterium, we said that mostly means "determined", and we reproached the Father Lucien to stick to "define"

3.

The question is not idle, because if we mean "define the concepts" field of infallibility extends, so if it means "to determine a dubious question" it shrinks. If, for ex cathedra definition, simply define the doctrine accurately, the papal encyclicals contain many definitions, but if, in addition, must be the intention to identify issues hitherto disputed, it is rare that there is

-.The second criticism that we were responding to the fifth objection (without naming the Father Lucien) concerns the concept of universal ordinary magisterium. If, as requested by the objection that a council solemnly teaches is infallible as extraordinary magisterium, while it teaches without solemnity is infallible as ordinary magisterium, because it is the teaching all the bishops in union with the pope, then, one way or another, everything will be taught by a council always infallible

4.

p. 49 On the first question, Father Lucien complains that we do him a "quarrel", because in reality, we come both to "equivalently say the same thing." It seems certain that, on this point, we can get to come to an agreement. But we disculpons because it started to more clearly distinguish between the two aspects of "set" in an article included in Chapter IV of the book, and we were able to take knowledge (it . was published only a few months before our article)

In what concerns the second criticism, he replied in the last pages of his book, under the title: "So, all that said Vatican II is infallible?". He reiterated that, although the Second Vatican Council did not want to engage infallibility by extraordinary fashion, he commits the ordinary and universal magisterium. But he says he is not infallible in everything he says, but only in each statement "made directly for itself," which is "presented as revealed, or as necessarily connected with Revelation, or as absolutely binding on all Catholics. " Hence he concludes sadly, as "the right asserted in the central passage of Dignitatis Humanae is expressly pre-sented as necessarily linked to the revelation, as it is presented as based" on the dignity of the human person as did know the Word of God and by reason itself, '"it follows that on this point the Council is in-fallible.

This explanation does not apply, because it argues that the authority did what the same authority to expressly denied. We assume that the Father Lucien agrees that the right to religious freedom is a novelty in the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church (according to him, in connection with the revelation necessary, in our view contradiction). But if the Vatican II taught infallibly a novelty, it means he has set a new doctrine. But before, during and after, the popes have said that the Council was not intended to establish new doctrines

5.

As a result, believe that: the popes or Father Lucien

We know that Father Lucien defends his opinion by saying that the Pope denied the doctrines set by special mode, but not in regular mode. Well, but beyond words, it is not surprising that the Council has done so many times that he intended to do no? For what said the abbe on religious freedom, it should say

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We believe in particular the committee Rore sanctification claiming to start a debate on the important issue of the new con-creations 2

3

4

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Salt Salt Salt See the Bishops of the Earth's land earth Sed contra with very bad manners. 47, Winter 2003-2004. 47, p. 82-83 and note. 47 objection to p. Solution and 39 at p. our article (The Salt of the Earth 47, p. 92.

45) that does nothing but take the quotes from a previous article of Fr. Pierre-Marie.

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as a host of doctrinal novelties that the conciliar docuмents have to be related to Revelation.

P. 50 In fact, Father Lucien reduces the distinction between ordinary magisterium extraordinary magisterium single accidental solemn

one,

thus justifying an ex cathedra definition, if it is not advertised to trumpet blasts, can be considered part the ordinary magisterium

2.

But this, which does not seem reasonable to the magisterium of the Pope, because of the inherent solemnity suppose such a way to express themselves, is unbearable for my Magisterium-a council which is in the ecclesiastical magisterium , how to express themselves which is the most solemn and ab-solument extraordinary. It is not possible to consider a claim directly defined for itself in an ecuмenical council is part of the ordinary magisterium. We invite Father Lucien considered with more attention to how we founded the distinction between ordinary and extraordinary magisterium

3.

Regarding religious freedom, Father Lucien says it is necessarily linked to the Revelation, and we di-sounds otherwise. Wish to decide to issue, it is not enough that the Council has stated that "the doctrine of freedom has roots in divine revelation" [DH 9], but he would have stated with certainty and permanently

4.

And it's obvious he has not done since the popes have claimed to define any new doctrine.

THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN REALITY AND FANTASY In his book, Father Lucien pays us with the same currency, but with more generosity. In our two critical, it responds with five: two lateral (sedevacantism Enlightenment and latent), three plants (two doctrinal errors, and a third in the assessment of the facts). We could spend the first two, but consider them all five.

P. 51 Enlightenment? In a note, Father Lucien expressed surprise ("more than strange design") that we oppose "the order of faith [...] than the knowledge of Christ," and we set " the divine light which involved the teaching [...] "beyond faith" and even "over dogma"

"5.

And he asks, "in passing", if we do not have "an Enlightenment conception of divine assistance to the Magisterium," because we oppose faith and the teaching

6.

Yet it is we who are surprised at his surprise. The knowledge of Christ is opposed to faith as this science is to what is seen ("I say what I saw" [Jn 8, 38]) while faith is to the n is not seen ("faith is the conviction of things not seen" [Heb 11, 1]). However, when the hierarchy teaches, she does like organ or instrument of Christ ("who hears you, hears me" [Lk 10: 16]) and not because of his personal faith. And statements of the Magisterium is the next rule of faith - the rule being above what is set -. If Lu-cian abbot better applied Thomistic doctrine of the instrumental cause the theology of ecclesiastical magisterium - we do not see it does so especially in his book - it seems to us that we would not blame this

7

.

sedevacantism? Again note, he accuses us to eventually support the "thesis Cassiciacuм" itself, which we pretend to refute

8,

and even be in favor of "the purest sedevacantism"

9.

The reason is that we attribute to the current tual authority of the Church "a habitual disposition [the liberal] preventing him from performing one of its essential components [the magisterial power]," implying a lack of ordination usually the common good. However, as this is an essential element of authority, we would affirm the formal non-existence of that authority.

P. 52

1

"The universal ordinary magisterium is one who gives without special education formula [...] The extraordinary magisterium is saidtwo

whensurround presentation of the doctrine of some solemn formulas" [p. 33]. "It is better to recognize that the conditions laid down by Vatican I in the infallibility of the papal magisterium can be performed no 3

4

On this point only salt the earth continues it in 47, p. magisterium 51.

to be extraordinary, but some in the ordinary magisterium ambiguity in the meaning that Mr. "[p. 16].

Abbe Lucien attributed to the word "set." That is why we have not said above that we agree, but "we can get to come to an agreement." It is not enough that an award is "presented as proved" it is necessary for the faith of the faithful. The authority must teach as revealed with certainty and permanently. Any proposal still has a double aspect: the hardware, the predicate is attributed to the subject (eg the "revealed" qualification awarded in a sentence), the formal side, the degree of certainty with which this has been tribution 5

6

7

Our Father Abbot (doubtful, probable, certain). The ex cathedra definition, LUCIEN, The Degrees of magisterial authority, note 54 LUCIEN, The Degrees of magisterial authority, note 65 author considers improper expression "rule we repeat, it looks especially formal appearance.

From ch.Vl, p. 219. of c. VI, p. 219

next."And prefer the 'standard directive" [p. 148], because the first term Mière suggest "that the magisterium is an intermediary between the faithful and the object of faith, as he is the minister of the object of faith which the believer adheres intelligence immediately in the light of the first truth which reveals "[note 26, p. 215]. The instrument part of the active power of the principal agent, without ceasing to be an intermediary between it and the subject that receives the effect. In addition, the pope is an instrument of such a high status it deserves to participate in the title of Master, Jesus Christ to own (in our first article, we spent a long paragraph to dispel the scruples of Mr. l 'Father Lucien see The Salt of the Earth 47, p 85).. September

8

Abbot Abbot From Lucien, Lucien, all ways, The The standard is also degrees of authority degrees of authority over Magisterium, note magisterium note of what is measured by it.

49, p. 217. 51, p. 217.

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But we affirm the contrary, if the recent popes have avoided exercise the Magisterium so far, it is because they believe in good Liberals, that way it gets better the common good the Church. No doubt they are wrong, and therefore they do not perfectly ordered to the common good. However, they do not show a contrary to this common good intention, as they provide imperfect, they do not lose their authority.

Perhaps Father Lucien Can not understand the paradoxical and inconsistent nature of liberal modernism, capable of destroying the Church with the best of intentions?

Infallibility of the meaning of faith in Chapter VI, Father Lucien three critical "theories" of "traditionalists" on the non-infallibility of Vatican II environments, and attacks in the first place,to

one

ours.There are two ways: one factual, we affirm that the conciliar magisterium would not impose its doctrine because it has adopted a liberal attitude, one that is more doctrinal, in which we repeat " usque ad nauseam [up nauseous]

"2

the same, while adding two considerations. As the first of these considerations comes down to what is said in the first path, there is only one argument: the conciliar magisterium does not want to impose his authority because he feels obliged to submit to the sense of the faithful considered infallible itself

3.

In the first way, the abbot replied that our claim is "free and contrary to the facts." In the second, that in seeking to push the errors of modernism, we fall "in an equally serious error otherwise." Let us consider here the second critical, doctrinal, leaving the end of the first, which is certainly the most importantdid:.

Here is the brief refutation we

While the agreement of all the faithful a doctrine is performed under the necessary dependence of the magisterium, it remains that the agreement of all is guaranteed by God not only through the action of the Magisterium, but also by the influx permanent of Christ and the Holy Spirit upon the whole Mystical Body. Af-firm that due to historical circuмstances

p. 53 questions wrong all the faithful may profess unanimously as falling Revelation, a false doctrine is to deny the divine assistance promised by Christ to his Church

4.

It is true that there are no circuмstances that would lead to the universality of the faithful unanimously profess a false doctrine as revealed because of the promise of Christ. But precisely, we say that the post-conciliar unanimously or bishops in union with the Pope, or the faithful, is not real, but apparent, sustained by advertisingap-pearance.

5

In our third article, we speak rather of "pluranimité" because, since the Council, all agree to think what they like

6.

If Father Lucien sees a strong consensus in the current profession of the Catholic faith, we would have to discuss to see if we do not live in different worlds.

Regard to the fact that the unanimous agreement of the faithful can be seen directly not through the Magisterium, it seems to us ill-sounding

7.

However, as this agreement is said to be still under the required length of the ma-Magisterium, we remain without knowing exactly what "directly" to the Father Lucien. As the conciliar doctrine of the infallibility of the "sensus fidei" is of paramount importance, since it claims to be corrected (and expanded) version of the modernist "religious feeling" condemned by Pascendi, we devoted a study most appropriate profondie which was published in the Proceedings of the Second Symposium in Paris, organized by Frater

p. 54 nity Priestly Society of Saint Pius X

8.

Here, we criticized the position of the father Marin Sola OP for the rest great theologian. We conclude by saying: "The common profession of faith [of the Church taught] is infallible in itself, but

1

2

3

Father Lucien, The Degrees of Abbot authority LUCIEN, The Degrees of authority Abbe Lucien seems to have read our magisterial, p. 163-169.

Magisterial, p. 166. This is the only slightly tricky item that we just quickly expression. No doubt this article is long (and heavy!)

Address.,But we have tried to be clear. As explained at the beginning of the corpus (The Salt of the Earth 47, p. 47), there are not "two ways", but the affirmation of an obvious fact (the decision not defined) and the explanation of its cause (liberalism conciliar magisterium). Expose more fi-dèlement  4th

May

Abbot We argument opponent assistance LUCIEN progress, The Degrees of magisterial authority, talking about the unanimity of the bishops in the discussion.

P. 167-168. response to the 6

th

objection: "The purely physical diffusion of doctrines and ways of thinking, universal force by newspapers and television and not that of the magisterial preaching has nothing to do with the farm response to the 7

th unanimous objection: magisterial teaching in the name of our Lord "[p. 93]. We talk about the unanimity of the faithful in "The conciliar novelties were distributed among the Christian faithful in the way of belief not supported with firmness and unanimity, but a spiritual disease as a result of which everyone can believe what in conscience, it looks good. This confusion of the new conciliar Babel is far away from the "consensus fidelium" constituting a 6

"theological place" as a criterion of revelation "[p. 95]. "II do not exist today as" unanimous consent. " The agreement of theologians is "unanimous" when all join in spirit or anima, the veracity of the same sentence (logical truth). But modern do not accept that the truth lies in the mind, as to what is qu'adéquation. [...] So the consensus achieved, for example, theologians SIC should be called "pluranime" because although they result in a text doctrine constitutes the greatest common denominator to which all can 7

" assert adhere as each remains free to speak his mind in a different opinion. " [The Salt of the Earth consent of the faithful at least a truth of faith must be recognized as infallible by 60, the p. 81.]

Alone "sensus fidei", prior to the proposal of the magisterium have to deny that the Magisterium of the Church is the next rule and necessary 8

Fr Alvaro faith "Calderon [The Salt" Infallibility land 47, p. 65]-.

of the "sensus fidei" according to Vatican II, "in Consciousness in the religion of Vatican II  Theological Studies - Second Symposium Paris, Avrillé, 2004, p. . 139-170

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it is not by itself: the infallibility which is expressed in it do not come from her, but the infallibility of the Magisterium. " Could it be that we disagree with Father Lucien on this?

From the difference between "magisterium" and "dialogue" From a doctrinal point of view, we are accused of adding a "second error the first"

1

which is exposed by a long quote from our first article. We denounce the fact that today, influenced by the conciliar doctrine of the "sensus fidei", "this is no longer the pastor after the flock, the shepherd who follows the sheep."

We note that the Abbot does not seem to situate our "beautiful speech"

2.

We deny that the conciliar magisterium can achieve infallibility through the ordinary magisterium. But for us, as we said, talking about ordinary magisterium has no meaning in the post-conciliar period, once the bishops dispersed. As Father Lu-cian considers that the conciliar statements are part of the ordinary magisterium, and it does not seem to have paid attention to the fact that we think differently, he believes that we are talking about what spent in the conciliar aula. However, listen to his warning.

He said that even if the pastors conciliar liberalism led them to form their judgment by a dialogue with their sheep, it's not why the authority of their statements would be weakened. Indeed, even if the hierarchy has serious moral obligation to prepare the way Catholic teaching, however divine assistance does not depend on the goodness of the preparation but only that gathered the four necessary conditions for a definition .

We fully agree on the doctrine we even devoted a section in our second pass we speak of "human mode" that is exercised magisterium

3.

Moreover, modernist historicism specializes in finding influences on the teaching of every age, to relativize doctrine. However, if these influences, open or hidden, leading the popes to speak publicly under

p. 55 different from those required for a requirements definition, as happened with the current magisterium, the case is quite different.

We say about us that the new way of forming a judgment passed by the Council led the hierarchy to cease practicing the old "magisterium authority" to adopt an explicit and public, a new "magisterium interacted." About this new way of magisterium can discuss its existence, its nature and its causes. As to the existence, it seems we have shown enough, supporting docuмents, in our second section

4

and we do not believe that Father Lucien discussed. Where we begin to not agree, it is the nature of this new magisterium. Although the book we analyze processes of the Catholic doctrine of the Magisterium and its recent developments, the author has never found it necessary to refer to the "dialogue", as mentioned yet since Paul VI. And it is also evident that the strength of our explanation for the deficiency conciliar magisterial authority arises from the consideration of the dialogue, its causes and its consequences, Father Lucien has virtually no considered our arguments

5.

Just a note can suggest us his thoughts on the subject

6.

He says that, after distinguishing the magisterium of the church govern-ment, we erred in characterizing "primarily the Magisterium as a" power to impose (doctrine) "" and an indication of the error in "absolute opposition between said" magisterium "and" dialogue.

'"Thestatement is brief, but try to understand it. Father concedes that the action to enforce the doctrine is absolutely opposed to the action of dialogue. But he reports that the Magisterium is not primarily require to believe (this is the meaning of "force"), but to define what is revealed, which imposes itself in the believer's faith because that is revealed. That said, this report function with finger object of faith may not seem so opposed to the attitude of dialogue that - where we exaggerate somewhat the thought of the author, but we continue to believe in the same line - not only pastors, but also true Faith

7

p..

56 He does not like our author that we use the word "impose" on the magisterium. However, it does not seem difficult to understand, as this verb is used for the power of government as it imposes a standard

1

2

3

Father Lucien, The Degrees of magisterial authority, p. 168. "A fine speech this we answer ... "[The Degrees, p. 168]. It is not, moreover, The Salt of the Earth 55, p. 148 ff. See p. 148: "The authority of their definition was due not only praise that weawardedSpirit."

notto the prolixity of their deliberations, but the audience 4

5

In our Salt of the earth leading the Holy  .

55 per item. . 145-148

(Salt of the Earth 47), we simply concluions the conciliar magisterium has not hired infaillibili-ty, then, in the second article (The Salt of the Earth 55), we showed that it did not enjoy any degree of authority because of its willingness to dialogue. In the notes, we can easily see that the Abbe Lucien discuss our first article and refers only to the July

6

Abbot After second

LUCIEN.,We have the degrees accused of opposing authority of the Magisterium excessively, p . magisterium 219, note 54 and the dialogue on the chapter we VI.

also accused in the same note, place the magisterium over faith. As we reported in our article (The Salt of the Earth 55, p. 159), if the charisma of magis-ter was not over faith, hierarchy should enter into dialogue with the faithful know better what is revealed and what is not. But this is the modernist doctrine, which knows no infallibility for the findings of the intra-church dialogue.

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order to practice obedience of the faithful, so like (not unique) can be the use it to power my-Magisterium as it imposes a sentence of speculative docility or obedience of faith of believers order. Even when the Pope noted that the finger at the object of faith, is that it does not require us to believe? However, what matters here is not so much that as the fact that his finger is infallible because of the divine light of my charisma-Magisterium, unlike theologians criterion which is based on the light " sensus fidei. " These are the criteria for separate orders, and that is why it is up to popes and theologians teach to learn.

Consequently, it is clear that, formally speaking, and literally, the "magisterium" is opposed so absolute in "dialogue" teaches one who knows, the dialogue that has something to learn. Until Vatican II, the Church magis-ter, with the authority of Christ, never interacted with anyone: Roma locuta, causa finite (Rome has it, the case is heard.) The new magisterium, inaugurated with the Council that dialogue with the faithful and unbelievers, waived the exercise of its own power.

All our second article explains, supporting docuмents, what we have to say . But we will not repro-dear to Father Lucien not we pay attention. What we reproach him, however, is that saying so obedient to the Magisterium today, he does not want to recognize the new ways that the same popes of the Council stated that it was appropriate to adopt. The encyclical Fides et ratio

1

is not easy to understand, but Ecclesiam suam

2

was very clear. The function-key of the International Theological Commission was well explained and applied. The dialogue that the new congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has established with the most subversive theologians was not done in secret. With what eyes Father Lucien he read the instruction Donum Veritatis

3

to continue to see it in the same attitude as that of the former Holy Office?

4

Ultimately, we are more docile than he because we at least try to understand what the conciliar Magisterium teaches on his own account.

p. 57 It remains to discuss the question of the cause of the Magisterium interacted new mode, which is none other than liberalism. But for the last review we received.

Liberalism of the conciliar hierarchy, fantasy or reality? As has been said, our "good explanation" of the crisis in the conciliar magisterium is a sickening impact analysis, in the exercise of authority, the notoriously liberal attitude adopted by the popes of Vatican II. However, Father Lucien, the current exercise of the magisterium has not changed in any way and our "thesis remains unsubstantiated assertion and contrary to the facts"

5.

Alas, laments Father (p. 219, note 64), although, initially, we recognize the real true Catholic doctrine of the Magisterium (praise, without irony, we sincerely appreciate you, especially coming from him) However, our "dialectic around the theme, become pure ideology, the" conciliar magisterium, liberal and dia-ford "," we "look away from the facts in light of the Catholic doctrine" and we 're driven to forge a - presentation of the situation purely spooky it.

"Wedo not want to miss the respect due to our worthy opponent, but let us ask the question: who is going to build fantasies about the Chair of Peter, one who sees  Liberal, or whoever sees St. Pius X? Father Lucien accuses us to develop personal reflections on the events of the Council and to interpret them in the way

6.

But the "liberal transfiguration" of the Catholic hierarchy, with the arrival of the Trojan Council is not an interpretation that we had afterwards: it was proclaimed at the time by the "Greeks" and mourned by the "Trojans" . The literature on the subject is abundant, especially in the progressive camp. The re-spray patterns prepared by the pre-conciliar commissions, the silencing of the Curia, the predominance of more liberal elements, failure Coetus Internationalis Patrum, and especially the important and decisive role played by experts the new theology, including Joseph Ratzinger was perhaps the only one who did not benefit from the "decoration" that was a condemnation by Pius XII: if all these events did not speak clear enough, the years after the Council does not allow doubt their significance-.

in all sincerity  what might seem doubtful that we manifest in public - and not without estimating our opponent as we feel in the presence of a right mind and afflicted by what happens in Church, we say:

p.58 Ourselves we can not fail to be afraid of our own conclusions, to hear us say that the authority in the Church since the Council, be exercised in a manner so corrupt. But the liberalism of the conciliar hierarchy is not an imagination on our part, it is the stark reality. On the other hand, since the encyclical Pascendi are well known adverse influences of liberal doctrines in the design and the exercise of authority. Just then have the courage to draw the obvious conclusion from these two premises.

If yourself, Father, you did, you might understand the sedevacantism between dizziness and perplexity of "obedience", there is room for lucid Catholic resistance we taught Lefebvre.

1

2

3

4

5

6

JOHN PAUL II, Encyclical Fides et Ratio, 14 September PAUL VI, Encyclical Ecclesiam suam, August 6, 1964 . Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Instruction on See our long comment this statement in LUCIEN Abbot, The Degrees of magisterial authority, p. Father Lucien, The Degrees of magisterial authority, p. 1998.

Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian Donum Veritatis, 24 May 1990. The Salt of the Earth 55, p. 152-157. 166. 166.

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