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Traditional Catholic Faith => The Library => Topic started by: biblioc on October 18, 2019, 12:35:01 PM

Title: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: biblioc on October 18, 2019, 12:35:01 PM: “At last all which regards the holy ecuмenical council has, with the help of God, been accomplished and all the constitutions, decrees, declarations and votes have been approved by the deliberation of the synod and promulgated by us. Therefore we decided to close for all intents and purposes, with our apostolic authority, this same ecuмenical council called by our predecessor, Pope John XXIII, which opened October 11, 1962, and which was continued by us after his death.

We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquility and peace of all men. We have approved and We established these things, decreeing that the present letters are and remain stable and valid, and are to have legal effectiveness, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described, all efforts contrary to these things by whomever or whatever authority, knowingly or in ignorance be invalid and worthless from now on.

Given in Rome at St. Peter’s, under the (seal of the) ring of the fisherman, Dec. 8, on the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the year 1965, the third year of our pontificate.”

https://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_letters/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apl_19651208_in-spiritu-sancto.html (https://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_letters/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apl_19651208_in-spiritu-sancto.html)

“But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching on a number of questions which today weigh upon man’s conscience and activity…”

http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/speeches/1965/docuмents/hf_p-vi_spe_19651207_epilogo-concilio.html (http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/speeches/1965/docuмents/hf_p-vi_spe_19651207_epilogo-concilio.html)
Title: Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: Stubborn on October 18, 2019, 03:11:07 PM: Quote from: biblioc on October 18, 2019, 12:35:01 PM
"We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquility and peace of all men".
Their decision that the new teachings are "to be religiously observed by all the faithful for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquility and peace of all men" is nothing more than more of the same old frustrating and ambiguous use of new, Novus Ordo language that V2 made the norm.

If it means he is binding us to the new faith, then that would NOT be for "the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquility and peace of all men" - instead, it would mean the opposite, which we are already and always bound to completely avoid, and we avoid it by condemning "all that has been established synodally" at V2.

If it means we are to merely religiously observe the new faith, as in religiously observe it so as to avoid it, so as to keep the true faith, then that could be said to be "for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquility and peace of all men", and that's only something that might be said in the language of the NO, no one else would say such a thing.

Either way, it is impossible to be bound to it "for the greater glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquility and peace of all men" - that much is for sure.
Title: Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: ByzCat3000 on October 18, 2019, 05:15:40 PM: I’m willing to grant that this may fall short of a promulgation of infallibility, but he certainly commands obedience here.

Some people on this forum really remind me of a child who is told to go to bed “around 9” and decides that’s ambiguous enough to stay up past midnight.

Frankly there are only three real possibilities that make any sense, either Vatican ii can be followed faithfully along hermeneutic of continuity lines without displeasing God, or there is a time and place to blatantly disobey what the pope orders, or there is currently no pope in the Vatican.
Title: Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 18, 2019, 05:32:47 PM: Byzcat, doctrinal matters require no interpretation because they are written and intended to be simple and clear.
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V2 was not doctrinal, so it is fallible, (not to mention contradictory and ambiguous). Thus it needs interpretation. You can’t read the docuмents only; you have to listen to what officials have said regarding both its nature and its legal requirements.
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Officials have REPEATEDLY said that the sspx (and by extension, all Trads and all Catholics) is not schismatic, not heretical and not disobedient for questioning V2. Regardless of what this sentence or that sentence says in the council docuмents, the final say on the matter is from Rome. And the conclusion is that V2 can be questioned. Period. Has nothing to do with disobedience. You’re just parroting what many sedes argue, and this comes from their private interpretation. It has no basis in reality.
Title: Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: biblioc on October 18, 2019, 11:16:48 PM: Christ (God and man): "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead." St. Luke 16:31
Title: Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: ByzCat3000 on October 18, 2019, 11:56:30 PM: Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 18, 2019, 05:32:47 PM
Byzcat, doctrinal matters require no interpretation because they are written and intended to be simple and clear.
.
V2 was not doctrinal, so it is fallible, (not to mention contradictory and ambiguous). Thus it needs interpretation. You can’t read the docuмents only; you have to listen to what officials have said regarding both its nature and its legal requirements.
.
Officials have REPEATEDLY said that the sspx (and by extension, all Trads and all Catholics) is not schismatic, not heretical and not disobedient for questioning V2. Regardless of what this sentence or that sentence says in the council docuмents, the final say on the matter is from Rome. And the conclusion is that V2 can be questioned. Period. Has nothing to do with disobedience. You’re just parroting what many sedes argue, and this comes from their private interpretation. It has no basis in reality.
Doctrinal matters definitely can require interpretation. There isn't a consensus, for instance, on how far exactly Vatican I says a true pope cannot err. And there's disagreement, even pre Vatican II, on what exactly it means to be outside the Church for extra ecclesiam.

I'll grant the current conciliar mess requires even *more* interpretation but that's neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: Stubborn on October 19, 2019, 05:32:13 AM: Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 18, 2019, 05:15:40 PM
Frankly there are only three real possibilities that make any sense, either [1] Vatican ii can be followed faithfully along hermeneutic of continuity lines without displeasing God, or [2] there is a time and place to blatantly disobey what the pope ~~orders~~ decides, or [3] there is currently no pope in the Vatican.
The second possibility is correct.

So it seems to that you (to be clear I am not saying this *is* what you think), the pope is saying that he is binding us to accept V2, binding us to believe all that the synod has established, iow, to you, the pope is really saying that which he did not say - is that correct?

If so, you are only one among billions of others since V2 who believe the same thing. If so, your opinion is proven by history since V2 to be the popular opinion.

Do you see how well that worked for the enemy, how easy it was for them to get those billions of people who lost the faith to simply abandon the true faith for the new faith? Do you know of any other revolution in history that happened where the enemy took over without a drop of blood being shed? - not even 50 years later?

In reality, the whole first quote in the OP is an audacious lie from start to finish. It is fact that like all the conciliar popes, Pope Paul VI was a Modernist and that Modernists lie, Pope St. Pius X (https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis.html) taught us that........

"...Further, none is more skillful, none more astute than they, in the employment of a thousand noxious arts; for they double the parts of rationalist and Catholic, and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into error; and since audacity is their chief characteristic, there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and assurance..."
Title: Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: ByzCat3000 on October 19, 2019, 09:48:22 AM: How exactly are you distinguishing an order from a decision?
Title: Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: biblioc on October 19, 2019, 10:45:56 AM: Saint Luke 16:31 "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead."
Title: Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
Post by: Stubborn on October 19, 2019, 02:18:47 PM: Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 19, 2019, 09:48:22 AM
How exactly are you distinguishing an order from a decision?
What is there to distinguish, he comes right out and says: "We decided..."

He tells us: "We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful..."

We answer: "Well Holy Father, you and the council made a poor decision because much of what has been established synodally is entirely ambiguous, and that which is somewhat understandable is blatantly contrary to the Catholic faith which the Church has always taught, so regretfully, we must disagree with your decision".