Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE  (Read 3483 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Memento

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 269
  • Reputation: +135/-0
  • Gender: Female


Offline Matto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6882
  • Reputation: +3849/-406
  • Gender: Male
  • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 03:00:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I once read a similar sermon by the holy Cure of Ars on the same topic and it made me despair for a while because I have a sinful past and I thought that maybe I had sinned so much that God would pardon me no more.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4577/-579
    • Gender: Female
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 03:12:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think God always forgives those who truly repent and have the honest intention to mend their lives and sin no more, even when they may commit the same sin again.  It is the presumptious obstinate sinner who shall not be pardoned.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Anthony Benedict

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 533
    • Reputation: +510/-4
    • Gender: Male
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 06:17:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I would not presume to "correct" St. Alphonsus, one of my favorites. But I would ask him, were it possible, for a "distinction" to be made between his comment on Wis 11:21 and this, from the Haydock compilation, regarding v. 24....

    [TEXT] "24 But thou hast mercy upon all, because thou canst do all things, and overlookest the sins of men for the sake of repentance.

    [COMMENTARY] " Ver. 24. Repentance. If people neglect to reform their conduct in this world, they must expect to be treated with all severity in the other."

    In other words, the promise of doom is conditional.

    Offline shin

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1671
    • Reputation: +854/-4
    • Gender: Male
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 09:21:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's quite a moving sermon, I have read it more than once, it's one to keep coming back to.

    We must pray and do all we can..

    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-


    Offline Dolores

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1067
    • Reputation: +539/-39
    • Gender: Female
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 11:20:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • While I have the utmost respect for the great Saint, is seems to be to the teaching of the Church that all sins, regardless of type or number, will always be forgiven by God (whether through Baptism or Confession), so long as the penitent has sorrow for his sins, and a firm intention to sin no more.

    Offline Memento

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 269
    • Reputation: +135/-0
    • Gender: Female
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 01:10:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The saint seems to be echoing the same teaching as is found in the Spirago Clark Catechism Explained Part I, Faith, "The Object of Christian Hope" pgs. 279 -280. in summary:

    1."The Christian may not rely on his own powers, on his fellow-man, nor on earthly things more than on God"
    2."The Christian may  not despair"
    3."The Christian must never presume on his trust in God's mercy"
    4. "The Christian may never tempt God"

    Please see the book for the complete text . here

    Offline Zeitun

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1601
    • Reputation: +973/-14
    • Gender: Female
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 02:35:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm toast without the Blessed Virgin.

     :heretic:  
    :devil2:


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41864
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 09:18:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Dolores
    While I have the utmost respect for the great Saint, is seems to be to the teaching of the Church that all sins, regardless of type or number, will always be forgiven by God (whether through Baptism or Confession), so long as the penitent has sorrow for his sins, and a firm intention to sin no more.


    I don't think that's what St. Alphonsus means.  I think that his intent is more along the lines of the proper understanding of Catholic predestination.  There's no sense in which God's Mercy can ever "run out" or reach some kind of limit.

    And, with the same respect for St. Alphonsus, and while I understand what he was trying to accomplish, the stories about a five-year-old committing one mortal sin and being sent to hell do not really paint a very nice picture of God.  It almost creates this caricature that God is just lying in wait for that mortal sin so He can strike the poor kid down.  You completely lose any sense of God's Mercy with this.  St. Alphonsus was speaking to those who just keep sinning and sinning and sinning, thinking that in the end they'll just stop.  That was a recurring theme of his.  But at the same time we do NOT want to create this kind of caricature of Our Merciful Father.  If such a thing actually happened, it needs to be related with the appropriate clarifications.  God knows how bad the state of that soul would have become had He let him continue living and snatching him so early was certainly as much an act of God's Mercy as of His Justice.  Every act of God's is always both perfectly merciful and perfectly just at the same time.

    Offline shin

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1671
    • Reputation: +854/-4
    • Gender: Male
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 10:18:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 'He who receives pardon, says St. Augustine, is pardoned through the pure mercy of God; and they who are chastised, are justly punished. How many has God sent to Hell for the first offense? St. Gregory relates, that a child of five years, who had arrived at the use of reason, for having uttered a blasphemy, was seized by the Devil and carried to Hell. The divine Mother revealed to that great servant of God, Benedicta of Florence, that a boy of twelve years was damned after the first sin. Another boy of eight years died after his first sin, and was lost. You say: I am young; there are many who have committed more sins than I have. But is God on that account obliged to wait for your repentance if you offend Him?'

    St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

    From the above link.

    I don't lose any sense of God's mercy from this Ladislaus, and the saints had good reason to relate this, no? A mortal sin is a terrible thing, one or many. I think the story shows how terrible a sin blasphemy is, and how dreadful, and how important it is children be raised to love God and fear sin.

    God decides, quickly or slowly, in one way or another, it is always the perfectly good decision. The angels never had a second chance after the first sin, and never will. People try to judge God's decisions. Apologists try to explain away His decisions and give people the feeling the can do that, when the can't. That is the mistake.

    Blessed Virgin pray for us.
    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline shin

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1671
    • Reputation: +854/-4
    • Gender: Male
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 10:24:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • FWIW

    St. Alphonsus Maria's sermon reminds me of some of Fr. Hunolt's on death-bed repentance. Very moving and thought provoking..

    I sometimes wonder how mercy, efficacious grace, merely sufficient grace, justice, etc. all might go together in these cases.

    But in the end ultimately there's only so much you may know in this life about how things work..
    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-


    Offline StCeciliasGirl

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 758
    • Reputation: +421/-17
    • Gender: Female
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 01:40:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I had avoided this thread because I thought it was going to say 7x77, infinity, etc (when that's the number of times WE forgive our brother, if I recall, and which makes sense). I love Confession, penance, reform, forgiveness, and the graces, and leave a lot of room for myself and others to attain those freely available graces. (And see it work miracles, especially the closer to God and the Sacraments we get.)

    And then I get spiritually lynched for refusing to follow Sodomite "priest" who marches for [unspeakable things]. —not only something against their own canon laws, mind you, but an ongoing and scandalous sin. It's not mine to forgive either way; I'm just not following a self-defrocked and clearly unrepentant sinner. (I get spiritually lynched for not praying for them. I might have that coming, but there are others who need prayer who are penitent and who ask for that prayer. :-) ).

    Nice links, Mememto and others; thank you. Bookmarked! Wonder why certain parishes never speak of "not presuming" and "not tempting God"? I've heard very few of those types of sermons, myself. (Maybe it's something everyone just knows, but the new generations coming on could benefit!)
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline bowler

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3299
    • Reputation: +15/-1
    • Gender: Male
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #12 on: December 24, 2013, 08:18:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Dolores
    While I have the utmost respect for the great Saint, is seems to be to the teaching of the Church that all sins, regardless of type or number, will always be forgiven by God (whether through Baptism or Confession), so long as the penitent has sorrow for his sins, and a firm intention to sin no more.


    I don't think that's what St. Alphonsus means.  I think that his intent is more along the lines of the proper understanding of Catholic predestination.  There's no sense in which God's Mercy can ever "run out" or reach some kind of limit.

    And, with the same respect for St. Alphonsus, and while I understand what he was trying to accomplish, the stories about a five-year-old committing one mortal sin and being sent to hell do not really paint a very nice picture of God.  It almost creates this caricature that God is just lying in wait for that mortal sin so He can strike the poor kid down.  You completely lose any sense of God's Mercy with this.  St. Alphonsus was speaking to those who just keep sinning and sinning and sinning, thinking that in the end they'll just stop.  That was a recurring theme of his.  But at the same time we do NOT want to create this kind of caricature of Our Merciful Father.  If such a thing actually happened, it needs to be related with the appropriate clarifications.  God knows how bad the state of that soul would have become had He let him continue living and snatching him so early was certainly as much an act of God's Mercy as of His Justice.  Every act of God's is always both perfectly merciful and perfectly just at the same time.


    Quote from: shin
    'He who receives pardon, says St. Augustine, is pardoned through the pure mercy of God; and they who are chastised, are justly punished. How many has God sent to Hell for the first offense? St. Gregory relates, that a child of five years, who had arrived at the use of reason, for having uttered a blasphemy, was seized by the Devil and carried to Hell. The divine Mother revealed to that great servant of God, Benedicta of Florence, that a boy of twelve years was damned after the first sin. Another boy of eight years died after his first sin, and was lost. You say: I am young; there are many who have committed more sins than I have. But is God on that account obliged to wait for your repentance if you offend Him?'

    St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

    From the above link.

    I don't lose any sense of God's mercy from this Ladislaus, and the saints had good reason to relate this, no? A mortal sin is a terrible thing, one or many. I think the story shows how terrible a sin blasphemy is, and how dreadful, and how important it is children be raised to love God and fear sin.

    God decides, quickly or slowly, in one way or another, it is always the perfectly good decision. The angels never had a second chance after the first sin, and never will. People try to judge God's decisions. Apologists try to explain away His decisions and give people the feeling the can do that, when the can't. That is the mistake.

    Blessed Virgin pray for us.


    What Ladislau is explaining to you will be further clarified by this:

    "Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]


    In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation;along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul.


    The idea of salvation outside the Church is opposed to the Doctrine of Predestination. From all eternity God has known who were His own. It is for the salvation of these, His Elect, that Providence has directed, does direct, and will always direct, the affairs of men and the events of history. Nothing, absolutely nothing, that happens, has not been taken into account by the infinite God, and woven into that tapestry in which is written the history of the salvation of His saints. Central in this providential overlordship is the Church itself, which is the sacred implement which God devised for the rescuing of His beloved ones from the damnation decreed for those who would not. (Mt. 23:37).

    The Doctrine of Divine Election means that only certain individuals will be saved.  They will be saved primarily because, in the inscrutable omniscience of God, only certain individuals out of all the human family will respond to the grace of salvation. In essence, this doctrine refers to what in terms of human understanding and vision, is before and after, the past, the present, and the future, but what in God is certain knowledge and unpreventable fact, divine action and human response.

    Calvin and others have made the mistake of believing that these words mean that predestination excludes human choice and dispenses from true virtue. Catholic doctrine explains simply that the foreknowledge of God precedes the giving of grace. It means, further, that, since without grace there can be no merit, and without merit no salvation, those who will be saved must be foreknown as saved by God, if they are to receive the graces necessary for salvation.

    Thus, what is the meaning of this election? That from all eternity God has ordered the events of history, so that His Elect might have the grace of salvation. And how do they know of this election? By the fact that they are in the Church, through no deservingness of their own? They know of no reason why God should bestow this grace, the knowledge of the truth, and the willingness and power to believe it, upon them, while others, who seem more worthy, go without it. As regards His Elect, not only has God determined to bestow necessary grace, but also, all His actions in the world must be seen as part of His salvific plan. In a word, nothing that He does is unrelated to the salvation of His Beloved Sheep. Human history, apart from the glory of Holy Church, and the salvation of the Elect, and the punishment of the wicked, has little importance for almighty God. Yet, all these purposes are only a part of the manifestation of His glory.

    The Doctrine of Predestination is that almighty God from all eternity both knew and determined who would be saved, that is, who would allow Him to save them. He would be the cause of their salvation, and, as there is no power that can even faintly obstruct or withstand Him, there is no power which can prevent His saving whom He wishes, except, of course, the man himself.





    Offline bowler

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3299
    • Reputation: +15/-1
    • Gender: Male
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #13 on: December 24, 2013, 02:05:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Dolores
    While I have the utmost respect for the great Saint, is seems to be to the teaching of the Church that all sins, regardless of type or number, will always be forgiven by God (whether through Baptism or Confession), so long as the penitent has sorrow for his sins, and a firm intention to sin no more.


    I don't think that's what St. Alphonsus means.  I think that his intent is more along the lines of the proper understanding of Catholic predestination.  There's no sense in which God's Mercy can ever "run out" or reach some kind of limit.

    And, with the same respect for St. Alphonsus, and while I understand what he was trying to accomplish, the stories about a five-year-old committing one mortal sin and being sent to hell do not really paint a very nice picture of God.  It almost creates this caricature that God is just lying in wait for that mortal sin so He can strike the poor kid down.  You completely lose any sense of God's Mercy with this.  St. Alphonsus was speaking to those who just keep sinning and sinning and sinning, thinking that in the end they'll just stop.  That was a recurring theme of his.  But at the same time we do NOT want to create this kind of caricature of Our Merciful Father.  If such a thing actually happened, it needs to be related with the appropriate clarifications.  God knows how bad the state of that soul would have become had He let him continue living and snatching him so early was certainly as much an act of God's Mercy as of His Justice.  Every act of God's is always both perfectly merciful and perfectly just at the same time.


    Quote from: shin
    'He who receives pardon, says St. Augustine, is pardoned through the pure mercy of God; and they who are chastised, are justly punished. How many has God sent to Hell for the first offense? St. Gregory relates, that a child of five years, who had arrived at the use of reason, for having uttered a blasphemy, was seized by the Devil and carried to Hell. The divine Mother revealed to that great servant of God, Benedicta of Florence, that a boy of twelve years was damned after the first sin. Another boy of eight years died after his first sin, and was lost. You say: I am young; there are many who have committed more sins than I have. But is God on that account obliged to wait for your repentance if you offend Him?'

    St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

    From the above link.

    I don't lose any sense of God's mercy from this Ladislaus, and the saints had good reason to relate this, no? A mortal sin is a terrible thing, one or many. I think the story shows how terrible a sin blasphemy is, and how dreadful, and how important it is children be raised to love God and fear sin.

    God decides, quickly or slowly, in one way or another, it is always the perfectly good decision. The angels never had a second chance after the first sin, and never will. People try to judge God's decisions. Apologists try to explain away His decisions and give people the feeling the can do that, when the can't. That is the mistake.

    Blessed Virgin pray for us.


    What Ladislau is explaining to you will be further clarified by this:

    "Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]


    In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation;along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul.


    From all eternity God has known who were His own. It is for the salvation of these, His Elect, that Providence has directed, does direct, and will always direct, the affairs of men and the events of history. Nothing, absolutely nothing, that happens, has not been taken into account by the infinite God, and woven into that tapestry in which is written the history of the salvation of His saints. Central in this providential overlordship is the Church itself, which is the sacred implement which God devised for the rescuing of His beloved ones from the damnation decreed for those who would not. (Mt. 23:37).

    The Doctrine of Divine Election means that only certain individuals will be saved.  They will be saved primarily because, in the inscrutable omniscience of God, only certain individuals out of all the human family will respond to the grace of salvation. In essence, this doctrine refers to what in terms of human understanding and vision, is before and after, the past, the present, and the future, but what in God is certain knowledge and unpreventable fact, divine action and human response.

    Calvin and others have made the mistake of believing that these words mean that predestination excludes human choice and dispenses from true virtue. Catholic doctrine explains simply that the foreknowledge of God precedes the giving of grace. It means, further, that, since without grace there can be no merit, and without merit no salvation, those who will be saved must be foreknown as saved by God, if they are to receive the graces necessary for salvation.

    Thus, what is the meaning of this election? That from all eternity God has ordered the events of history, so that His Elect might have the grace of salvation. And how do they know of this election? By the fact that they are in the Church, through no deservingness of their own? They know of no reason why God should bestow this grace, the knowledge of the truth, and the willingness and power to believe it, upon them, while others, who seem more worthy, go without it. As regards His Elect, not only has God determined to bestow necessary grace, but also, all His actions in the world must be seen as part of His salvific plan. In a word, nothing that He does is unrelated to the salvation of His Beloved Sheep. Human history, apart from the glory of Holy Church, and the salvation of the Elect, and the punishment of the wicked, has little importance for almighty God. Yet, all these purposes are only a part of the manifestation of His glory.

    The Doctrine of Predestination is that almighty God from all eternity both knew and determined who would be saved, that is, who would allow Him to save them. He would be the cause of their salvation, and, as there is no power that can even faintly obstruct or withstand Him, there is no power which can prevent His saving whom He wishes, except, of course, the man himself.





    Offline AJNC

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1002
    • Reputation: +567/-43
    • Gender: Male
    ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
    « Reply #14 on: December 26, 2013, 12:27:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some days ago I went for Confession to a priest who was ordained in 1962, and brought this topic up with him, as some of us struggle with the same sins for decades on end. His reply was that St Alphonsus preached in a way that was necessary at that time, and moreover, Vatican II changed the emphasis, concerning sinners, from the notion of giving out penalties to that of treating the penitent with love.

    He then went on to say that Our Lord would have no need to come down to redeem us if we were not sinners. He spoke more of which I understood nothing. I asked him to repeat and explain what he had just said. He did so, and I was worse off than before! My wife, who went first, said he said similar things to her.
    He's a friend of our's, and we get on well. But we won't be going to him again for Confession if we can help it.