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Author Topic: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp  (Read 4442 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
« on: February 09, 2025, 12:39:43 PM »
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  • Well, I have scanned the first half of the Newman book on Justification.  I have not read it yet.  It was written in 1874, two years before the death of Orestes Brownson.  It is a shame because I would have liked to know Brownson's take on this work.  I do not think Brownson had a chance to review it. 
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #1 on: February 09, 2025, 07:10:04 PM »
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  • As people know, I'm not a huge fan of Newman.  I think he was a proto-Modernist (and had arguments with Sean Johnson about it).  Cardinal Manning had the same opinion of him that I do, except I have the 20/20 hindsight of St. Pius X's later condemnation of Modernism, whereas Manning discerned it himself.

    Not a few bishops in Great Britain denounced Newman for heresy.

    Newman was also highly suspect of sodomy, or at the very least was incredibly hyper-effeminate in being extremely over-emotional (un-manly, as it were).

    Yet he was quickly canonized by the Conciliars ... not despite but undoubtedly BECAUSE of these aspects of his life.


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #2 on: February 09, 2025, 10:41:03 PM »
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  • :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #3 on: February 10, 2025, 09:25:30 AM »
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  • I read all converts with a skeptical eye.  At least Newman was interested enough to write a 300 page book on the topic of Justification.  I am interested not so much in what Newman has to say as I am in what the Fathers had to say.  Newman claimed to have read all the Latin Fathers, which is a bit a unbelievable if you ask me, but possible I guess. 
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #4 on: February 10, 2025, 12:37:34 PM »
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  • I read all converts with a skeptical eye.  At least Newman was interested enough to write a 300 page book on the topic of Justification.  I am interested not so much in what Newman has to say as I am in what the Fathers had to say.  Newman claimed to have read all the Latin Fathers, which is a bit a unbelievable if you ask me, but possible I guess.

    He said he had read all of all the Latin Fathers?  That would surprise me.  Have you ever seen Migne's Patrologia Latina?  It's absolutely gigatnic, with tiny print.  I don't think I could read it all in 2-3 lifetimes if it's all I did every waking hour.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #5 on: February 10, 2025, 02:32:09 PM »
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  • As people know, I'm not a huge fan of Newman.  I think he was a proto-Modernist (and had arguments with Sean Johnson about it).  Cardinal Manning had the same opinion of him that I do, except I have the 20/20 hindsight of St. Pius X's later condemnation of Modernism, whereas Manning discerned it himself.

    Not a few bishops in Great Britain denounced Newman for heresy.

    Newman was also highly suspect of sodomy, or at the very least was incredibly hyper-effeminate in being extremely over-emotional (un-manly, as it were).

    Yet he was quickly canonized by the Conciliars ... not despite but undoubtedly BECAUSE of these aspects of his life.
    I totally agree.  I've always been leery of Newman since I read he wished to be buried on top of Ambrose St. John.
    Further I discovered that he thought he could rewrite the Anima Christi better than St. Ignatius of Loyola's original and then presumed to rewrite the Prayer Before the Crucifix by St. Francis.
    Why do converts always think they can do better, sort of like invaders do.

    https://www.ncronline.org/news/moving-cardinal-newmans-body-runs-controversy
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #6 on: February 10, 2025, 04:25:44 PM »
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  • I totally agree.  I've always been leery of Newman since I read he wished to be buried on top of Ambrose St. John.
    Further I discovered that he thought he could rewrite the Anima Christi better than St. Ignatius of Loyola's original and then presumed to rewrite the Prayer Before the Crucifix by St. Francis.
    Why do converts always think they can do better, sort of like invaders do.

    https://www.ncronline.org/news/moving-cardinal-newmans-body-runs-controversy

    Yes, apart from the disturbing Ambrose St. John thing, Newman really is the father of Modernism, having made statements that he'd put up with the definition of papal infallibility until such a time as a "deeper understanding" arrives that they assent to, i.e. the very Modernist notion regarding the development of dogma.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #7 on: February 10, 2025, 05:42:08 PM »
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  • I have to wonder if Pope St Piux X had him in mind (amongst others) when he spoke against modernism.
    But changing the prayers of saints is just arrogant.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #8 on: February 10, 2025, 08:49:51 PM »
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  • I have to wonder if Pope St Piux X had him in mind (amongst others) when he spoke against modernism.
    But changing the prayers of saints is just arrogant.

    Well, reportedly St. Pius X defended Newman against accusations of heresy, and it was on area in which I think he was a bit excessively soft on a Modernist.  Newman was very subtle in how he presented it, not over-the-top like the ones St. Pius X condemned, and always professing loyalty to the Holy See.

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #9 on: February 11, 2025, 01:24:45 AM »
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  • I have to wonder if Pope St Piux X had him in mind (amongst others) when he spoke against modernism.
    But changing the prayers of saints is just arrogant.
    It is Pius X who makes Newman a Cardinal..... :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #10 on: February 11, 2025, 08:50:16 AM »
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  • It is Pius X who makes Newman a Cardinal..... :popcorn:

    :confused:
    Quote
    Newman was elevated to the rank of cardinal in the consistory of 12 May 1879 by Pope Leo XIII
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_Newman#Cardinalate

    He died before Pius X became Pope in 1903: 
    John Henry Newman CO (21 February 1801 – 11 August 1890)


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #11 on: February 11, 2025, 09:21:38 AM »
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  • He said he had read all of all the Latin Fathers?  That would surprise me.  Have you ever seen Migne's Patrologia Latina?  It's absolutely gigatnic, with tiny print.  I don't think I could read it all in 2-3 lifetimes if it's all I did every waking hour.
    I have seen the Migne collection, and I concur, it is hard for me to believe that such a human feat is possible.  That being said, just look at the amount of literature Orestes Brownson read.  He considered himself a book reviewer and it was nothing for him to review multi-volume theology works.  The amount of literature Brownson read is staggering and his Brownson's Review (1844-76) is some 20,000 pages.  That said, we moderns waste a lot of time. I believe there are 300 volumes of the Latin fathers; if Newman spent 20 years reading the Fathers, this would be 15 volumes a year, roughly one a month, which seems incredible to me, but theoretically doable. 
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #12 on: February 11, 2025, 09:34:32 AM »
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  • I have seen the Migne collection, and I concur, it is hard for me to believe that such a human feat is possible.  That being said, just look at the amount of literature Orestes Brownson read.  He considered himself a book reviewer and it was nothing for him to review multi-volume theology works.  The amount of literature Brownson read is staggering and his Brownson's Review (1844-76) is some 20,000 pages.  That said, we moderns waste a lot of time. I believe there are 300 volumes of the Latin fathers; if Newman spent 20 years reading the Fathers, this would be 15 volumes a year, roughly one a month, which seems incredible to me, but theoretically doable.

    Even if a person can read this much, it will be worth little unless this person has very good academic skills and organizes the knowledge acquired and makes summaries of the texts.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #13 on: February 11, 2025, 09:55:57 AM »
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  • I have seen the Migne collection, and I concur, it is hard for me to believe that such a human feat is possible.  That being said, just look at the amount of literature Orestes Brownson read.  He considered himself a book reviewer and it was nothing for him to review multi-volume theology works.  The amount of literature Brownson read is staggering and his Brownson's Review (1844-76) is some 20,000 pages.  That said, we moderns waste a lot of time. I believe there are 300 volumes of the Latin fathers; if Newman spent 20 years reading the Fathers, this would be 15 volumes a year, roughly one a month, which seems incredible to me, but theoretically doable.

    Perhaps that was just a different time when people could just sit and read.  I would think a Cardinal, however, would be too busy for that, or even a simple parish priest would be.

    So one Migne volume in a month, that to me would be incredibly daunting.  They're huge volumes with tiny print, and, what?, probably at least a thousand pages each, right?

    Perhaps he meant that he's read FROM all the Fathers.  I was in graduate school at The Catholic University of America in Greek/Latin and finished the coursework for the Ph.D. ... though didn't believe I could spend another 7 years between the two rigorous exams they had and the dissertation.  I went there precisely because they had the only Ph.D. Classics program in the country that emphasized Patristic/Medieval Latin and NewTestament/Patristic Greek.  Unfortunately, however, their requirements were obscene where you had to do a list of Classical texts in Latin / Greek that were AS EXTENSIVE as any other Ph.D. list in just straight Classics, for the Master's degree, and THEN you had to do an EQUALLY gigantic list in the New Testament / Patristic / Medieval area, not to mention art, archaeology, epigraphy, paleography, etc.  In that extensive time period, from the 2nd/3rd century B.C. (due to needing to know about the Septuagint for the Greek side), until about A.D. 1200 (or so), the amount of material is absolutely overwhelming.  There are so many different periods and locations throughout the world that it's mind-boggling, and so IMO their program was WAY too broad, and I'm not sure who the heck could ever finish it without intending to become a Professor (there) after about 7 more years after coursework ... and that's assuming you don't need to work for a living during that time.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Cardinal Newman: Work on Justification; 1874, 300+pp
    « Reply #14 on: February 11, 2025, 10:15:21 AM »
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  • Even if a person can read this much, it will be worth little unless this person has very good academic skills and organizes the knowledge acquired and makes summaries of the texts.

    Right.  Now, there's probably some benefit in just making one pass for a general overview, since you can get a sense or feel for things even if you don't go into great depth.  But, yes, I'd be wanting to take notes on key points there ... except, now, in the modern era, I'm pretty sure it's all been converted to electronic format and one can search the available texts quite easily ... at least the Latin ones I know have a searchable DB.

    It's actually due to reading voluminously from the Church Fathers that I became a "Feeneyite", because you most certainly can imbibe from their "spirit" and their "attitudes" and theri sensus fidei, from a broad reading.  I came to the same conclusion as the one Patristics scholar often cited.