Author Topic: Who Invented the Flat Earth?  (Read 7798 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
« Reply #345 on: February 12, 2018, 06:14:58 PM »
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  • A little bit more explanation for Happenby.

    Catholic Encyclopedia, On Infallibility As to the Galileo affair, it is quite enough to point out the fact that the condemnation of the heliocentric theory was the work of a fallible tribunal. The pope cannot delegate the exercise of his infallible authority to the Roman Congregations, and whatever issues formally in the name of any of these, even when approved and confirmed in the ordinary official way by the pope, does not pretend to be ex cathedra and infallible. The pope, of course, can convert doctrinal decisions of the Holy Office, which are not in themselves infallible, into ex cathedra papal pronouncements, but in doing so he must comply with the conditions already explained — which neither Paul V nor Urban VIII did in the Galileo case.

    Catholic Encyclopedia, On Galileo Galilei Such in brief is the history of this famous conflict between ecclesiastical authority and science, to which special theological importance has been attached in connection with the question of papal infallibility. Can it be said that either Paul V or Urban VIII so committed himself to the doctrine of geocentricism as to impose it upon the Church as an article of faith, and so to teach as pope what is now acknowledged to be untrue? That both these pontiffs were convinced anti-Copernicans cannot be doubted, nor that they believed the Copernican system to be unscriptural and desired its suppression. The question is, however, whether either of them condemned the doctrine ex cathedra. This, it is clear, they never did. As to the decree of 1616, we have seen that it was issued by the Congregation of the Index, which can raise no difficulty in regard of infallibility, this tribunal being absolutely incompetent to make a dogmatic decree. Nor is the case altered by the fact that the pope approved the Congregation's decision in forma communi, that is to say, to the extent needful for the purpose intended, namely to prohibit the circulation of writings which were judged harmful. The pope and his assessors may have been wrong in such a judgment, but this does not alter the character of the pronouncement, or convert it into a decree ex cathedra.

    That doesn't mean they didn't teach it.  Infallibility regards a certain level of certainty, but it doesn't mean they didn't mean they were wrong to tell us that it is proximate to heresy, clearly explained within the Galileo documents, the Index commentaries, and the writings of many Catholics on the subject since.  The Church came down with condemnations and as such, we are obliged to believe them. 

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Fabian Flattists/Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #346 on: February 12, 2018, 07:02:32 PM »
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  • You are setting an unreasonable standard for proof.  The website cited the source:

    Quote from: Jaynek: Inserted to reply #251 (p. 17) on Feb 12, 2018 at 14:47:39

    Original Latin source: W. Brandmüller and E.J. Greipl, eds., Copernicus, Galileo, and the Church: The End of the Controversy (1820), Acts of the Holy Office (Florence: Leo Olschki, 1992), pp. 300-301.


    You look like you are refusing to accept it because you don't like what it says, rather than because there is any good reason to.  You do not insist on seeing original documents when they support flat earth.


    Of course Meg doesn't like it!

    But if she were to get "original documents",  both Meg (June 2013) and her junior sister Happenby (July 2016) couldn't read their content:
    •  We already know that they are belligerent Bible-thumpers who profess traditional Roman Catholicism, but can't read the only authoritative Roman Catholic Bible: the Vulgate Bible of St. Jerome (--420), which is entirely in Latin (I've never read any claims by them that they ever tried to learn the primary sacred language of Roman Catholicism).
    •  So they can't read any other authoritative documents by any traditional pope or papal offices, because with scant few exceptions, they are also entirely in Latin.
    •  If anyone satisfies their demands for "original documents" issued by papal offices ca. Pope Pius VII (1800--1823), they won't get tidy monumental Roman letters printed using movable-type or typewriter technology, but instead, images of manuscripts in the purportedly elegant but practically troublesome Beneventan script (ahem!  be careful what you ask for).
    •  We've already seen that Meg (if not also Happenby), on a micro scale, is unable to distinguish crucial wording that indicates permission vs. requirement, or personal opinion vs. official teaching.  On a macro scale, we've seen that she is unable to distinguish sources that are valid from sources that display disqualifyingly wretched scholarship, or are otherwise worthless.

    What's seems to be most important to Meg and Happenby is not uncovering the information they claim that they're seeking; instead, it's indulging in yet another Fabian delaying action in the protracted war waged by flattists against spherists here on CathInfo.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #347 on: February 12, 2018, 07:42:23 PM »
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  • That doesn't mean they didn't teach it.  Infallibility regards a certain level of certainty, but it doesn't mean they didn't mean they were wrong to tell us that it is proximate to heresy, clearly explained within the Galileo documents, the Index commentaries, and the writings of many Catholics on the subject since.  The Church came down with condemnations and as such, we are obliged to believe them.

    Why aren't we obliged to believe the decree in 1820 that said it was OK to believe heliocentrism?  It had just as much authority (arguably more) than the one which condemned heliocentrism earlier.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #348 on: February 12, 2018, 07:44:08 PM »
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  • Why aren't we obliged to believe the decree in 1820 that said it was OK to believe heliocentrism?  It had just as much authority (arguably more) than the one which condemned heliocentrism earlier.
    Read it.  Believe it.  But don't say it says what it doesn't. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #349 on: February 12, 2018, 07:55:07 PM »
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  • Believe and teach, no. It says: There must be no denial, by the present or by future Masters of the Sacred Apostolic Palace, of permission to print and to publish works which treat of the mobility of the earth and of the immobility of the sun, according to the common opinion of modern astronomers…those who would show themselves to be reluctant or would disobey, should be forced under punishments at the choice of [this] Sacred Congregation, with derogation of [their] claimed privileges, where necessary. (1822)


     Print and publish is not believe and teach.

    This is not the decree of 1820.  The reason it has "(1822)" at the end is because it was written in 1822.

    The 1820 decree is the one that includes "His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors."

    This means that Pius VII decress that there is no problem with supporting Copernicus' position on the earth's movement (heliocentrism) as it is taught at that time.  It is OK to believe and teach it.  There is no reason why they can't do it.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #350 on: February 12, 2018, 08:10:28 PM »
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  • Finally. No one ever said you have to accept heliocentrism. The only thing I've been trying to convey is that FE and GC are not Dogmas that require absolute assent of faith. They may be correct but one should not be condemning those that think otherwise. Will you have the guts now to admonish those Flatearthers on here who condemn and insult those who don't believe in Flat Earth.
    I don't condemn anybody, but the Church has made clear where She stands.  Maybe She does not require an "absolute" assent of Faith, but then, the Church is generous with the ignorant, hence the slight opening for mercy for those who really don't know.  I admonish people who condemn people, me included, although my strong language has not included such that I know of, and I certainly have not intended to say Catholics will go to hell for holding heliocentrism per se. But I do believe that the Church has made Her trajectory clear about revealing to us the beauty and simplicity of Scripture regarding flat geocentric earth and there is a real danger of disregarding the assistance of the Fathers in this regard knowing Satan prowls like a roaring lion looking to devour souls using incredibly sophisticated means. Heliocentrism is scientifically contradictory, unsupported by Scripture, remains condemned Copernican science that New World Order globalists promote, hinting loudly that it is the doctrine of devils.  
     

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #351 on: February 12, 2018, 08:18:57 PM »
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  • This is not the decree of 1820.  The reason it has "(1822)" at the end is because it was written in 1822.

    The 1820 decree is the one that includes "His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors."

    This means that Pius VII decress that there is no problem with supporting Copernicus' position on the earth's movement (heliocentrism) as it is taught at that time.  It is OK to believe and teach it.  There is no reason why they can't do it.

    I'd like to read the original.  This is proximate to heresy.  Earth's movement was soundly condemned because it contradicts Scripture.  Now, that either means this decree is in error, something I'm loathe to think or say, or that it was commentary made to look like it belonged in the decree, or that it was improperly translated, the latter more likely scenarios.  I'm not sure I can absolutely say that modern bishops who'd say such things somehow make themselves heretics, or place themselves outside the Church, but if its true that modernism entered to the degree that we don't have to accept decrees, I remain hesitant to suggest it. There is nothing true in that statement as it stands.   

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Fabian Flattists/Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #352 on: February 12, 2018, 08:33:03 PM »
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  • Of course Meg doesn't like it!

    But if she were to get "original documents",  both Meg (June 2013) and her junior sister Happenby (July 2016) couldn't read their content:
    •  We already know that they are belligerent Bible-thumpers who profess traditional Roman Catholicism, but can't read the only authoritative Roman Catholic Bible: the Vulgate Bible of St. Jerome (--420), which is entirely in Latin (I've never read any claims by them that they ever tried to learn the primary sacred language of Roman Catholicism).
    •  So they can't read any other authoritative documents by any traditional pope or papal offices, because with scant few exceptions, they are also entirely in Latin.
    •  If anyone satisfies their demands for "original documents" issued by papal offices ca. Pope Pius VII (1800--1823), they won't get tidy monumental Roman letters printed using movable-type or typewriter technology, but instead, images of manuscripts in the purportedly elegant but practically troublesome Beneventan script (ahem!  be careful what you ask for).
    •  We've already seen that Meg (if not also Happenby), on a micro scale, is unable to distinguish crucial wording that indicates permission vs. requirement, or personal opinion vs. official teaching.  On a macro scale, we've seen that she is unable to distinguish sources that are valid from sources that display disqualifyingly wretched scholarship, or are otherwise worthless.

    What's seems to be most important to Meg and Happenby is not uncovering the information they claim that they're seeking; instead, it's indulging in yet another Fabian delaying action in the protracted war waged by flattists against spherists here on CathInfo.
    Big words devoid of content. 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #353 on: February 12, 2018, 08:35:55 PM »
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  • I'd like to read the original.  This is proximate to heresy.  Earth's movement was soundly condemned because it contradicts Scripture.  Now, that either means this decree is in error, something I'm loathe to think or say, or that it was commentary made to look like it belonged in the decree, or that it was improperly translated, the latter more likely scenarios.  I'm not sure I can absolutely say that modern bishops who'd say such things somehow make themselves heretics, or place themselves outside the Church, but if its true that modernism entered to the degree that we don't have to accept decrees, I remain hesitant to suggest it. There is nothing true in that statement as it stands.  
    You can read the whole document here: http://inters.org/approval-Settele-heliocentric

    Or maybe it means that there is something wrong with the way you understand Scripture.  Apparently, you would rather think a Church decree is wrong than consider the possibility that you have made a mistake. There is no good reason to doubt the translation or the authority of this document. 

    This decree has just as much authority as one that you just said that Catholics were obliged to believe.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #354 on: February 12, 2018, 08:54:45 PM »
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  • You can read the whole document here: http://inters.org/approval-Settele-heliocentric

    Or maybe it means that there is something wrong with the way you understand Scripture.  Apparently, you would rather think a Church decree is wrong than consider the possibility that you have made a mistake. There is no good reason to doubt the translation or the authority of this document.

    This decree has just as much authority as one that you just said that Catholics were obliged to believe.
    I don't want to believe a decree is wrong, or mistranslated, but I've certainly seen the latter.  In the meantime, its easier for me to deny one misrepresented decree than it is to deny the avalanche of integrated evidence from Saints, Fathers, Scripture, the Church, true science, math, empirical evidence and reason, while knowing full well that modern Copernicanism is rife with condemned propositions, heresy, occultism, alchemy, division, evolution, globalism, hoaxes, extortion, anti-Catholicism, contradiction, and chaos. Its a slam dunk. Something's wrong with the decree.   

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #355 on: February 13, 2018, 07:24:38 AM »
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  • I don't want to believe a decree is wrong, or mistranslated, but I've certainly seen the latter.  In the meantime, its easier for me to deny one misrepresented decree than it is to deny the avalanche of integrated evidence from Saints, Fathers, Scripture, the Church, true science, math, empirical evidence and reason, while knowing full well that modern Copernicanism is rife with condemned propositions, heresy, occultism, alchemy, division, evolution, globalism, hoaxes, extortion, anti-Catholicism, contradiction, and chaos. Its a slam dunk. Something's wrong with the decree.  

    There is no avalanche.  You have misunderstood the authority of the Fathers, misinterpreted Scripture, ignored all the Saints who taught and believed spherical earth, and come up with a completely wrong idea of what the Church teaches.  This is why you struggle to accept this decree of the Church.  There is nothing wrong with the decree; it's you.

    Modern flat-earthism, as represented by Eric Dubay's site, is rife with heresy, blasphemy, occult, lies, promotion of recreational drugs, anti-Catholicism, and chaos.  Traditional Catholics who believe in flat earth don't accept those things, just like traditional Catholics who believe spherical earth and "heliocentrism" don't accept your list of evils.  You judge your side by its best proponents and the other side by its worst proponents.  It's an unreasonable double standard.

    If you think that math and science support flat earth, go ahead and talk about that.  You may believe in flat earth.  But you have no right to misrepresent Church teaching.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #356 on: February 13, 2018, 10:23:44 AM »
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  • I'd like to read the original.  This is proximate to heresy.  Earth's movement was soundly condemned because it contradicts Scripture.  Now, that either means this decree is in error, something I'm loathe to think or say, or that it was commentary made to look like it belonged in the decree, or that it was improperly translated, the latter more likely scenarios.  I'm not sure I can absolutely say that modern bishops who'd say such things somehow make themselves heretics, or place themselves outside the Church, but if its true that modernism entered to the degree that we don't have to accept decrees, I remain hesitant to suggest it. There is nothing true in that statement as it stands.  

    Good assessment above. There is some reasonable doubt, perhaps, as to the assent we must give that document, given that modernism entered the church not long after that document/decree was given (though it's difficult to say when exactly that modernism entered the church). And was it given to the entire church as a command? Given that it can only be found on that one website (and wiki) it may not been a universal decree that all Catholics have to agree with. It's possible that most Catholics didn't even know about the decree when it was released. It can't be found on Vatican.va as a historical church document, so how important is it that all Catholics must give assent to it, and as such that we HAVE to accept heliocentrism now. Jayne will strongly disagree, since she's so wrapped up in proving FE wrong.

    The decree does seem proximate to heresy, and we do not have to give assent to anything that is suspect. As we know with the modernist crisis in the church today, which did not begin with Vatican ll, but at least one hundred years earlier. Pope St. Pius X wrote Pascendi in 1907, and modernism had already infiltrated the church by then.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #357 on: February 13, 2018, 10:37:51 AM »
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  • There is no avalanche.  You have misunderstood the authority of the Fathers, misinterpreted Scripture, ignored all the Saints who taught and believed spherical earth, and come up with a completely wrong idea of what the Church teaches.  This is why you struggle to accept this decree of the Church.  There is nothing wrong with the decree; it's you.

    Modern flat-earthism, as represented by Eric Dubay's site, is rife with heresy, blasphemy, occult, lies, promotion of recreational drugs, anti-Catholicism, and chaos.  Traditional Catholics who believe in flat earth don't accept those things, just like traditional Catholics who believe spherical earth and "heliocentrism" don't accept your list of evils.  You judge your side by its best proponents and the other side by its worst proponents.  It's an unreasonable double standard.

    If you think that math and science support flat earth, go ahead and talk about that.  You may believe in flat earth.  But you have no right to misrepresent Church teaching.

    Eric Dubay is guilty indeed of what you write above. The thing is, if the earth is really flat, then it's not only going to be a few trad Catholics who realize it. In fact, trad Catholic flat-earthers make up only a tiny fraction of all those who believe in FE.

    It makes sense that if all those non-Catholics realize that the earth isn't a globe, then we can look to the science that they present. Since you think that FE should have nothing to do with religion, then you shouldn't have a problem with non-Catholic science that supports FE. We, however, will continue to view FE in a religious context of the Catholic faith. After all, how can we separate Creation from God and religion? We cannot do it.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #358 on: February 13, 2018, 10:56:54 AM »
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  • Eric Dubay is guilty indeed of what you write above. The thing is, if the earth is really flat, then it's not only going to be a few trad Catholics who realize it. In fact, trad Catholic flat-earthers make up only a tiny fraction of all those who believe in FE.

    And if the earth is really a sphere, it makes sense that it won't be just Catholics who realize it, but all sorts of people with unrelated wrong or evil ideas.  And yet you constantly criticize spherical earth in terms of who believes in it. 

    You have no problem with the idea that true things are true, no matter who believes them, when it's about flat earth.  But you condemn spherical earth by claiming it is held by pagans, etc. You can't have it both ways.  Stop telling us that we are accepting a pagan idea or accept that you too accept a pagan idea.  Both in ancient times and current times, there have been pagans who believed flat earth.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Who Invented the Flat Earth?
    « Reply #359 on: February 13, 2018, 11:03:02 AM »
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  • And if the earth is really a sphere, it makes sense that it won't be just Catholics who realize it, but all sorts of people with unrelated wrong or evil ideas.  And yet you constantly criticize spherical earth in terms of who believes in it.

    You have no problem with the idea that true things are true, no matter who believes them, when it's about flat earth.  But you condemn spherical earth by claiming it is held by pagans, etc. You can't have it both ways.  Stop telling us that we are accepting a pagan idea or accept that you too accept a pagan idea.  Both in ancient times and current times, there have been pagans who believed flat earth.

    You didn't actually address anything in my post.

    We will not stop saying that the globe earth is pagan. We know it is pagan. That doesn't mean that Catholics who believe in a globe earth are pagans. It can be very difficult to accept that the earth is flat; I get that. We've been taught our entire lives that the earth is a globe. But it's one thing for a Catholic to not want to accept the flat earth, and it's another thing for you to say that we cannot tell of the pagan roots of the globe earth.

    So what if non-Catholics (which may include pagans) realize that the earth is not a globe. They may someday realize that there is a God who made all of creation, and that He also gave us a religion called the Catholic faith.

     

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