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Author Topic: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?  (Read 4333 times)

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Offline Stanley N

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Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2018, 06:19:03 PM »
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  • Your first response should be, "if the Church said that, I believe it."  Then you can go about researching to see why the Church said it.  The approach that it might be faulty should only enter your Catholic mind once you've done studies and found it faulty.  Not before.  I've studied this subject in depth for 10 years and have proven to myself that there is absolutely no fault in these Church statements by any standard.  Not by the Fathers, Scripture, the Church or science.  
    When someone says the Church teaches something that is against reason, you're saying the first response is to believe it? Are you saying you should give the assent of faith, and absolute certainty, to statements which could be wrong and in fact are wrong to human certainty? If so, that's fideism - that faith and reason are hostile and one can believe things by faith that are contrary to reason.
    Fideism is essentially a line of Protestant thinking. The Church is NOT fideist. 
    The Catholic Church supports that knowledge can come from revelation or from reason, and that the two do not conflict. Vatican I was definitely not fideist, and part of the anti-Modernist oath is anti-fideist. 


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #76 on: September 23, 2018, 06:50:00 PM »
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  • First your last question. As far as I have found, the absurd and false philosophically part was discussed in the 1741 and 1820 docuмents and used to undermine the heresy.
    ...
    the 1741 docuмents seeking permission to reprint Galileo's Dialogue; the 1756 new Index that dropped the 1640 general prohibition; and finally the 1820 docuмents that removed the 5 remaining books on the Index.
    From the 1820 docuмent: "His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors."

    Are you suggesting the Catholic Church has failed in its obligations for centuries, having explicitly allowed Catholics to hold things you believe contrary to the faith and condemned by the Church?

    This would seem contrary to indefectibility and appear difficult to reconcile with the promises of Christ.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #77 on: September 24, 2018, 06:13:33 AM »
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  • Are you suggesting the Catholic Church has failed in its obligations for centuries, having explicitly allowed Catholics to hold things you believe contrary to the faith and condemned by the Church?

    This would seem contrary to indefectibility and appear difficult to reconcile with the promises of Christ.

    At this point Stanley, one gets banned from Catholic Answers and a few other Catholic forums as some of us have.

    'ARE YOU SUGGESTING,' is how the Copernican heresy became the norm in the womb of the Church making sure that NO CATHOLIC would question the SCANDAL that was perpetrated by members of the Holy Office in order to 'SAVE THE CHURCH' when all believed their geocentrism was falsified by science.. Recall it was the Church of 1616 and 1633 who defined heliocentrism formal heresy, not those like myself who studied the history of it with a CATHOLIC MIND.

    The Church of 1616 was defending the traditional interpretation of Scripture when they defined H as formal heresy. Bellarmine had clarified the situation in his 1615 letter to Foscarini that the SUBJECT MATTER (heliocentrism or geocentrism) was not the heresy. The Heresy was to deny the word those who wrote of a moving orbiting sun as revealed in the Bible. They were the ones inspired by God and to deny their word, revelation by God, was formal heresy NO MATTER THE SUBJECT MATTER was about the order of the universe.

    What happened was that the heresy of denying the WORD of those who wrote Scripture was transferred to the subject matter, removing it from what was defined as formal heresy. If the heresy BIT was ignored, then there was no heresy involved, only a matter of physical H or G. That was done and no Catholic thereafter deliberately committed heresy.

    What these clever churchmen did was to leave the heresy as it was. No pope ever attempted to abrogate or challenge the 1616 decrees, they left them as they were, thank God, or yes, what you say could be a possibility. So the INVENTED a non-heretical heliocentrism, and left the heretical heliocentrism under the carpet. You see they had to as they all thought science had falsified an infallible decree defining heresy. NOW THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN CONTRARY TO THE CHURCH'S CLAIM OF INDEFECTIBILITY PROMISED BY CHRIST.

    So, how did they do it. Well very clever. Olivieri and his bunch of Copernicans invented a new version of the formal heresy. They said in 1820, to Pope Pius VII, that the heresy was to say the earth moves around the sun VIOLENTLY. But they said, MODERN ASTRONOMERS NOW KNOW THE EARTH MOVES AROUND THE EARTH WITHOUT VIOLENCE ON ITS SURFACE SO THE HERESY IS NOT APPLICABLE. They agreed that the 1616 decree was papal and irreversal and remained formal heresy, but it remainded heresy to say the Earth moves with violent motion.

    Now read again what Pope Pius VII allowed Catholics to believe, "THE MOBILITY OF THE EARTH AND OF THE IMMOBILITY OF THE SUN, ACCORDING TO THE COMMON OPINION OF MODERN ASTRONOMERS." So, having removed all thought of HERESY, they could get their science right and allow the flock to believe in the heliocentrism of modern astronomy. But this now allowed a heliocentric interpretation of the Bible free from its heresy. You couldn't make it up.
    Olivieri and his Copernicans in the Holy Office literally conned the Church out of its heresy by presenting a FICTICIOUS version of the heresy condemned in 1616. It was basedf on the sun, not the earth, and proof of this is that both Copernicus and Galileo had written in their books that the Earth would orbit WITHOUT VIOLENCE.

    Now Stanley, what you are reading on this post has NEVER been presented in 6,000 books on the Galileo case, or in many millions of journals, articles and websites.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #78 on: September 24, 2018, 10:07:38 AM »
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  • Now Stanley, what you are reading on this post has NEVER been presented in 6,000 books on the Galileo case, or in many millions of journals, articles and websites.
    Shouldn't that suggest that perhaps you have it very wrong?

    Offline cassini

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #79 on: September 24, 2018, 11:44:25 AM »
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  • Shouldn't that suggest that perhaps you have it very wrong?

    Yes, it is hard to believe, but so too is the history of the Church since Vatican II. However, the docuмents are now out of the SECRET ARCHIVES and available for anyone to read.


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #80 on: September 24, 2018, 09:36:09 PM »
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  • From the 1820 docuмent: "His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors."

    Are you [cassini] suggesting the Catholic Church has failed in its obligations for centuries, having explicitly allowed Catholics to hold things you believe contrary to the faith and condemned by the Church?

    This would seem contrary to indefectibility and appear difficult to reconcile with the promises of Christ.
    (annoying emphasis removed)

    Even at the beginning of the 17th century the Holy Inquisition had no problem with anyone (including the clown Copernicus) presenting the Pythagorean ideas as hypotheses. The problem of Galilei was, he tried to sell them as truths.

    A.D. 1820, the Holy Office allowed Copernican ideas "in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors." The most prominent Catholic author after Galileo Galilei surely was Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz.

    Quote from: Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, third letter to Clarke
    As for my opinion, I have said more than once, that I hold space to be something merely relative, as time is; that I hold it to be an order of coexistences, as time is an order of successions. For space denotes, in terms of possibility, an order of thing s which exist at the same time, considered as existing together; without enquiring into their manner of existing. And when many things are seen together, one perceives that order of things among themselves.

    I have many demonstrations, to confute the fancy of those who take space to be a substance, or at least an absolute being. But I shall only use, at the present, one demonstration, which the author here gives me occasion to insist upon. I say then, that if space was an absolute being, there would something happen, for which it would be impossible there should be a sufficient reason. Which is against my axiom. And I prove it thus. Space is something absolutely uniform; and, without the things placed in it, one point of space does not absolutely differ in any respect whatsoever from another point of space.  Now from hence it follows, (supposing space to be something in itself, besides the order of bodies among themselves,) that ’tis impossible there should be a reason, why God, preserving the same situations of bodies among themselves, should have placed them in space after one certain particular manner, and not otherwise; why every thing was not placed quite contrary way, for instance, by changing East into West. But if space is nothing else, but that order or relation; and is nothing at all without bodies, but the possibility of placing them; then those two states, the one such as it now is, the other supposed to be the quite contrary way, would not at all differ from one another. Their difference therefore is only to be found in our chimerical supposition of the reality of space in itself. But in truth the one would exactly be the same thing as the other, they being absolutely indiscernible; and consequently there is no room to enquire after a reason of the preference of the one to the other.

    Leibniz is a straight relativist, rejecting Newton's absolute space.

    I would say that even such relativism is absurd and philosophically false. Gravity and/or inertia may be relative effects, but it is absurd, insane, and philosophically false to think that there could be no other ways to determine absolute rest and absolute movement.


    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #81 on: October 06, 2018, 11:06:42 AM »
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  • What happened was that the heresy of denying the WORD of those who wrote Scripture was transferred to the subject matter, removing it from what was defined as formal heresy.
    You still seem to assume that something was "defined as formal heresy", and furthermore, that whatever that was, it still applies to modern astronomy.

    That is not just about the "violence" thing you mention! For instance, some of the docuмents are specifically about Galileo and so, properly speaking, do not apply to anyone else.

    Clearly this is a long way from the initial question, but it has made it clear that you don't hold geocentrism on scientific grounds. (And how could you, if everything is relative according to Struthio.)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #82 on: October 06, 2018, 06:00:31 PM »
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  • I know they are, because the 1633 condemnations obviously are infallible. And even if the act of the 1633 condemnations was not an infallible act, the condemnations still would be true.
    Assumes facts not in evidence.


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #83 on: October 08, 2018, 10:02:37 PM »
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  • everything is relative according to Struthio

    You do not seem to understand what I have commented.

    Modern science says that movements are relative in general. Also, gravity is relative, they say.

    I don't defend modern science. I just mentioned it, because you opened this thread suggesting that aberration should be a problem for geocentrism while being no problem for heliocentrism. Given the history of science since Galilei up til today, that's a ridiculous stance.


    I defend the condemnations proposed to Galilei by the Holy Office and the Pope. (Just like I defend the condemnations of the errors of Martin Luther.) The Holy Office implies that movement is absolute, and it teaches that the earth is at rest and the sun is moving and to state otherwise is absurd (as well as heretical/erroneous/against Scripture).
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #84 on: October 08, 2018, 10:12:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Struthio
    I know they [both propositions (moving earth and resting sun)] are [absurd and false philosophically], because the 1633 condemnations obviously are infallible. And even if the act of the 1633 condemnations was not an infallible act, the condemnations still would be true.
    Assumes facts not in evidence.

    You say "facts not in evidence". This sounds like you're more smart than the Holy Office. Please be so kind, and show to the readers of this thread that you really are. Please prove that said propositions (earth is moving and sun is resting) are not absurd and false philosophically but rather reasonable and true (philosophically).

    Good luck!  :jester:
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #85 on: October 08, 2018, 11:11:42 PM »
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  • Assumes facts not in evidence.

    You say "facts not in evidence". This sounds like you're more smart than the Holy Office. Please be so kind, and show to the readers of this thread that you really are. Please prove that said propositions (earth is moving and sun is resting) are not absurd and false philosophically but rather reasonable and true (philosophically).

    Good luck!  :jester:
    Thank you. QED. Whew, that was difficult ;)


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #86 on: October 08, 2018, 11:28:14 PM »
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  • Thank you. QED. Whew, that was difficult ;)

    That's a nonsense comment. Just an arrogant "QED" without stating anything.
    Please be more verbose, if you aim at having readers take part in your insights.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #87 on: October 09, 2018, 12:01:15 AM »
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  • That's a nonsense comment. Just an arrogant "QED" without stating anything.
    Please be more verbose, if you aim at having readers take part in your insights.
    Since you have not demonstrated that the 1633 decisions are infallible, their infallibility is not a fact in evidence at this time. I can't think of more to say on this point.

    You changed the quote I responded to above in a way that rather changes the meaning of my post. That's not exactly the best practice in discussions, you know.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #88 on: October 09, 2018, 12:22:28 AM »
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  • @Stanley N

    In the topic "Comments on Fr Robinson's new book The Realistic Guide to Religion and Science" you insist that R. Sungenis' PhD title is a title of a "diploma mill". Using such an argument against Sungenis, you attach yourself to the modern academic system. Given the standards of academic science of the 20th and 21st centuries your opening post is ridiculous.

    The Cardinals of modern science explain that your opening post is ridiculous. Quotes of Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, Edwin Hubble (all with PhDs from accepted PhD mills) have been presented to you on page two of this thread. Beside PhD titles they are qualified by even higher honours, by highest honours.

    Still you don't even comment on what they have to say to you. You appear anything but intellectually honest.

    I reckon, not even a "diploma mill" would honour you with a PhD.

    But let's forget about all this nonsense. Who cares for worldy honours and authorities in this godless 21st century? One would have to be a fool to do so!

    I repeat:

    Quote from: Struthio
    Please prove that said propositions (earth is moving and sun is resting) are not absurd and false philosophically but rather reasonable and true (philosophically).
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: What is the geocentrist explanation for stellar aberration?
    « Reply #89 on: October 09, 2018, 12:29:12 AM »
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  • Since you have not demonstrated that the 1633 decisions are infallible, their infallibility is not a fact in evidence at this time. I can't think of more to say on this point.

    I never said I could prove that the two condemned propositions are infallibly condemned. I said that I believe they are infallibly condemned.


    You changed the quote I responded to above in a way that rather changes the meaning of my post. That's not exactly the best practice in discussions, you know.

    No I didn't. I just inserted in brackets more from the original text to have my own statements represented as I stated them.


    You keep acting intellectually dishonest.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)