Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence.. (Read 60917 times)

WholeFoodsTrad · « **Reply #525 on:** January 05, 2018, 04:31:59 PM »

Quote from: An even Seven on January 05, 2018, 09:19:19 AM

Whole is LYING!!!!! Below is what actual Catholics and Church Fathers say about Scripture and the shape of things...

It's common knowledge that The Bible depicts a flat earth. I'm sure I can produce many priests who will tell you that The Bible does not depict a Young Earth, created in six days or a virgin birth or the trinity or transubstantiation or even the divinity of Christ, but any decent scholar of ancient literature will tell you that it does, whether they are Catholic, Protestant, Jєωιѕн, Hindu, Mulsim or Atheist. It's just a fact, wether you like it or not.

You should face facts: your only way out of this is to either accept Biblical Inerrancy and hence, Flat-Stationary Earth or take Jaynek's way out of it(believe that The Bible is only partially innerrant and the rest is just cultural). Everyone knows that most ancient cultures believed in a Flat Earth, so Jaynek believes that the Biblical depiction of a Flat and Stationary Earth is merely a product of Ancient Culture and not Divine Inspiration.

I'm sorry, but I have a lot more respect for her position, then I do for yours (which is that some Church Fathers didn't believe in Flat Earth, so I don't have to either). Really? What if they were wrong? Are Church Fathers Innerrant or Infallible? No. So, that's why I think your position is weak; you don't take a stand on anything (it's like you just don't want to be bothered with it). Jaynek does take a stand. So, I respect her, but not you, because so far, you seem spineless/weak/lazy to me. Jayne works hard. Although, I do disagree with her position on Biblical Inerrancy, which is at least founded on a body of thought/opinion, whereas yours seems to be based on intellectual laziness.

Smedley Butler · « **Reply #526 on:** January 05, 2018, 06:35:27 PM »

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #527 on:** January 06, 2018, 12:02:36 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on January 03, 2018, 05:24:19 AM

I agree that it is not, strictly speaking, gnosticism. It is not helpful to refer to flat earthers as gnostics.

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Flat-earthers, in fact, display all the symptoms of gnosticism.
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They refuse to observe the moon in its phases which everyone can see every month.
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They repeatedly pander the same falsehoods over and over, even when they're shown to be falsehoods.
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They adhere blindly to their false doctrine and ignore the facts presented to them.
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There are words of Our Lord which apply directly to them.
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"Wherefore he saith: Rise thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead: and Christ shall enlighten thee."
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The Church has never demanded that we ignore what we see with our eyes.
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But nonetheless, flat-earthers refuse to look at the moon and recognize the truth of what they see.
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Jaynek · « **Reply #528 on:** January 06, 2018, 05:54:25 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on January 06, 2018, 12:02:36 AM

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Flat-earthers, in fact, display all the symptoms of gnosticism.
.
They refuse to observe the moon in its phases which everyone can see every month.
.
They repeatedly pander the same falsehoods over and over, even when they're shown to be falsehoods.
.
They adhere blindly to their false doctrine and ignore the facts presented to them.
.
There are words of Our Lord which apply directly to them.
.
"Wherefore he saith: Rise thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead: and Christ shall enlighten thee."
.
The Church has never demanded that we ignore what we see with our eyes.
.
But nonetheless, flat-earthers refuse to look at the moon and recognize the truth of what they see.
.

The word "gnosticism" normally refers to certain historical belief systems. One can see a description in Wikipedia:

Quote

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός gnostikos, "having knowledge", from γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) is a modern name for a variety of ancient religious ideas and systems, originating in Jєωιѕн milieus in the first and second century AD. Based on their readings of the Torah and other Biblical writings,^[specify] these systems believed that the material world is created by an emanation of the highest God, trapping the Divine spark within the human body. This Divine spark could be liberated by gnosis of this Divine spark.

There may be some points of similarity between Flatearthism and Gnosticism. For example, they both use knowledge improperly based on Scripture. Their actual beliefs, however, are very different.
Calling flatearthers "gnostics" is giving very little real information about them and is potentially confusing. It is basically just name-calling.

I strongly sympathize with being so frustrated with them that one wishes to call them names. They either refuse or are unable to see the truth. I've been upvoting a lot of your posts in which you explain things to them, but good explanations are not enough.

I recently came across a Fr. Faber quote which reminded me of this thread. It said "Kindness has converted more souls than zeal, eloquence, or learning." No matter how clearly we explain what is wrong with flatearthism, I doubt it will change anyone's mind if not accompanied by kindness.

I have pretty much exhausted my own ability to be kind, so it is time for me to think about pulling out of the discussion.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #529 on:** January 06, 2018, 06:29:53 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on January 06, 2018, 05:54:25 AM

The word "gnosticism" normally refers to certain historical belief systems. One can see a description in Wikipedia:
There may be some points of similarity between Flatearthism and Gnosticism. For example, they both use knowledge improperly based on Scripture. Their actual beliefs, however, are very different.
Calling flatearthers "gnostics" is giving very little real information about them and is potentially confusing. It is basically just name-calling.

I strongly sympathize with being so frustrated with them that one wishes to call them names. They either refuse or are unable to see the truth. I've been upvoting a lot of your posts in which you explain things to them, but good explanations are not enough.

I recently came across a Fr. Faber quote which reminded me of this thread. It said "Kindness has converted more souls than zeal, eloquence, or learning." No matter how clearly we explain what is wrong with flatearthism, I doubt it will change anyone's mind if not accompanied by kindness.

I have pretty much exhausted my own ability to be kind, so it is time for me to think about pulling out of the discussion.

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So are you suggesting that what these flat-earthers are pandering is SOMEHOW NOT "potentially confusing?"
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They keep saying the same stupid falsehoods over and over and over in response to simple questions.
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The same stupid nonsense over and over and over.
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The same stupid nonsense over and over and over.
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They do it again and again and again.
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They do it incessantly to the point where it has become evident that they enjoy trying to disturb the common sense of readers.
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When someone who is asking reasonable questions gets frustrated with their stupid nonsense, they jump for joy.
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These deviants actually take PLEASURE inducing frustration.
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That borders on WICKED, actually. Do you prefer I accuse them of wickedness or gnosticism?
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Because it's one or the other.
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Wake up.
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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #530 on:** January 06, 2018, 06:35:18 AM »

Quote from: Smedley Butler on January 05, 2018, 09:36:32 AM

Hennesey commercial shows Piccard breaching into the waters above. They know.

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Uhhh, "They know," IOW, gnosticism.
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Apparently referring to a retarded video by its real identity is "uncharitable" so I won't do that.
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This video you have posted displays the curved horizon of the spheroidal earth in plain view.
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But then it says the horizon is not curved while it shows the curve right there on the screen.
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They couldn't be bothered to at least falsify the image before pandering their false description.
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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #531 on:** January 06, 2018, 06:54:01 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on January 06, 2018, 05:54:25 AM

The word "gnosticism" normally refers to certain historical belief systems. One can see a description in Wikipedia:

There may be some points of similarity between Flatearthism and Gnosticism. For example, they both use knowledge improperly based on Scripture. Their actual beliefs, however, are very different.

Calling flatearthers "gnostics" is giving very little real information about them and is potentially confusing. It is basically just name-calling.

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Perhaps you know enough about gnosticism to realize that there have been diverse factions of this ideology, some of which share nothing in doctrine or practice EXCEPT the one common feature -- that they all use knowledge improperly -- some not having anything to do with Scripture but merely pagan traditions.
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So to be a gnostic, all you really need to be doing is pretending that you have recourse to a secret or hidden knowledge, often times it being something that the general public all around you is ignorant of, or even opposed to.
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One group of gnostics might entirely disagree with another group, but they're both gnostics anyway.
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If they were any more secretive they'd be a secret society, like the Freemasons.
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What stands in contrast to gnostics is the contrary, that is, any group of people who form a SCHOOL or an ACADEMY or a CULTURE, or other such things, which stand in distinction AND separation from gnostics by the simple fact that all of their doctrines are open for all to know, and reasonable discussion of said doctrines is not a forbidden activity.
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Check out the difference: Just try to open any reasonable discussion regarding the visible universe on any of these threads and you will be swamped with the same repetitious, inane garbage that they have already posted hundreds of times.
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Most forums forbid trolling but apparently when you're a flat-earther you can troll all you want on CI.
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While you are ostensibly forbidden from posting the same thing in multiple threads, flat-earthers do just that with impunity.
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They do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again.......................
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Jaynek · « **Reply #532 on:** January 06, 2018, 07:19:35 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on January 06, 2018, 06:29:53 AM

.
So are you suggesting that what these flat-earthers are pandering is SOMEHOW NOT "potentially confusing?"
.
They keep saying the same stupid falsehoods over and over and over in response to simple questions.
.
The same stupid nonsense over and over and over.
.
The same stupid nonsense over and over and over.
.
They do it again and again and again.
.
They do it incessantly to the point where it has become evident that they enjoy trying to disturb the common sense of readers.
.
When someone who is asking reasonable questions gets frustrated with their stupid nonsense, they jump for joy.
.
These deviants actually take PLEASURE inducing frustration.
.
That borders on WICKED, actually. Do you prefer I accuse them of wickedness or gnosticism?
.
Because it's one or the other.
.
Wake up.
.

I think that the flatearthers are seriously wrong on several levels. I also think you are right that some of them want to provoke anger and frustration. I daresay they like to see themselves as a persecuted minority bravely proclaiming the truth and they need to create some persecutors to go with this narrative. If you want to help them out, I suppose you might as well.

Purely for linguistic reasons, however, I do not like to see a word with a perfectly good meaning like "gnosticism" be reduced to a mere insult. (I'm not saying that gnosticism is perfectly good; it is a rather evil heresy. But the word functions just the way a word ought to function.) If you really want to be a persecutor of flatearthers , there are other alternatives.

Have you considered adding the title "Official Flatearther Persector" to your profile? Or, if you must use insults, why not add a literary flavour to the discussion with this handy Shakespearean insult generator: http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/
Wouldn't it be fun to say, "Thou cullionly sheep-biting hedge-pig!"
or
"Thou currish plume-plucked flap-dragon!"

Why call people gnostics when the power and imagination of Shakespearean insults awaits you. Impress your friends. Strike terror into the hearts of your enemies. Borrow from the badass bard. Strut your stuff like you're from Stratford. Don't wait another moment! Shakespearean insults are just a click away.

happenby · « **Reply #533 on:** January 06, 2018, 09:53:49 AM »

Quote from: Smedley Butler on January 05, 2018, 11:50:49 AM

I've no problems with the idea one can be saved despite ball earth belief.
I have problems with the opinion that the shape is unimportant.

Its not so much that believing earth to be a ball will send one to hell, but the consequent daughters of heliocentrism promote false beliefs that usher people into a pagan religions that is the problem. Evolution is one such daughter of heliocentrism, leading one to believe there is no God. The Big Bang is another. In the name of false science, the masses have turned away from God to thank Mother Earth and Nature for all corporal gifts and essentially worship another god. The damage of such false beliefs is inestimable. Making fun of it or dismissing the seriousness of the problem or failing to make the connection or even denying the connection is a sure sign one is infected with a very dangerous spiritual sickness: Condemned Heliocentrism.

Smedley Butler · « **Reply #534 on:** January 06, 2018, 11:39:11 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on January 06, 2018, 07:19:35 AM

I think that the flatearthers are seriously wrong on several levels. I also think you are right that some of them want to provoke anger and frustration. I daresay they like to see themselves as a persecuted minority bravely proclaiming the truth and they need to create some persecutors to go with this narrative. If you want to help them out, I suppose you might as well.

Purely for linguistic reasons, however, I do not like to see a word with a perfectly good meaning like "gnosticism" be reduced to a mere insult. (I'm not saying that gnosticism is perfectly good; it is a rather evil heresy. But the word functions just the way a word ought to function.) If you really want to be a persecutor of flatearthers , there are other alternatives.

Have you considered adding the title "Official Flatearther Persector" to your profile? Or, if you must use insults, why not add a literary flavour to the discussion with this handy Shakespearean insult generator: http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/
Wouldn't it be fun to say, "Thou cullionly sheep-biting hedge-pig!"
or
"Thou currish plume-plucked flap-dragon!"

Why call people gnostics when the power and imagination of Shakespearean insults awaits you. Impress your friends. Strike terror into the hearts of your enemies. Borrow from the badass bard. Strut your stuff like you're from Stratford. Don't wait another moment! Shakespearean insults are just a click away.

It would seem Jaynek had whiskey in her coffee this morning.

Meg · « **Reply #535 on:** January 06, 2018, 11:49:23 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on January 06, 2018, 07:19:35 AM

If you really want to be a persecutor of flatearthers , there are other alternatives.

Such as....?

Smedley Butler · « **Reply #536 on:** January 06, 2018, 11:54:10 AM »

Quote from: GJC on January 06, 2018, 10:13:59 AM

For what it's worth, I"m sure we all believe St Francis Xavier is in heaven... IMO, this thread is redundant.

They[Japanese] did not know that the world is round, they knew nothing of the course of the sun and stars, so that when they asked us and we explained to them these and other like things, such as the causes of comets, of the lightning and of rain, they listened to us most eagerly, and appeared delighted to hear us, regarding us with profound respect as extremely learned persons. This idea of our great knowledge opened the way to us for sowing the seed of religion in their minds. . . .

Since they didn't know it was round, they must have believed it was flat??

Life and Letters of St Francis Xavier

http://www.classzone.com/books/wh_05_shared/pdf/WHS05_019_546_PS.pdf

St Augustine is in Heaven, despite his ball earth belief.

Meg · « **Reply #537 on:** January 06, 2018, 12:00:17 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on January 06, 2018, 06:54:01 AM

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So to be a gnostic, all you really need to be doing is pretending that you have recourse to a secret or hidden knowledge, often times it being something that the general public all around you is ignorant of, or even opposed to.
to know, and reasonable discussion of said doctrines is not a forbidden activity.

And yet aren't you opposed to advocates of FE in showing that the Church Fathers also believed in a flat earth? Were the Church Fathers gnostics as well? What about the ancient Hebrews who based a flat earth on Genesis? Were they gnostics, too?

It's true that most people are ignorant of FE, but that doesn't mean that FE is some sort of secret knowledge.

Keep in mind, too, that gnostics generally believe that that matter is evil. You'd have difficulty in finding a flat-earther who believes that matter is evil.

We believe that God created the earth, and as such it cannot be evil.

Smedley Butler · « **Reply #538 on:** January 06, 2018, 12:08:02 PM »

Quote from: GJC on January 06, 2018, 10:13:59 AM

For what it's worth, I"m sure we all believe St Francis Xavier is in heaven... IMO, this thread is redundant.

They[Japanese] did not know that the world is round, they knew nothing of the course of the sun and stars, so that when they asked us and we explained to them these and other like things, such as the causes of comets, of the lightning and of rain, they listened to us most eagerly, and appeared delighted to hear us, regarding us with profound respect as extremely learned persons. This idea of our great knowledge opened the way to us for sowing the seed of religion in their minds. . . .

Since they didn't know it was round, they must have believed it was flat??

Life and Letters of St Francis Xavier

http://www.classzone.com/books/wh_05_shared/pdf/WHS05_019_546_PS.pdf

Define round.
Does St Xavier mean the did not know earth was round like a ball, or round like a circle?
This is the error Fr Pfeiffer used. He says round when referring to "ball" in his video.
I would bet the Japanese had the correct notion of a flat plane of whatever "shape" with sun circling above, and St Xavier brought them the bsll earth heliocentric model, seeing as he arrived after the Copernican revolution.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #539 on:** January 06, 2018, 12:23:51 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on January 06, 2018, 06:54:01 AM

So to be a gnostic, all you really need to be doing is pretending that you have recourse to a secret or hidden knowledge, often times it being something that the general public all around you is ignorant of, or even opposed to.

Except that they don't consider this knowledge to be hidden but taught by Sacred Scripture. Flat earth thinking is no more gnostic than geocentrism ... and I am a geocentrist.

And the very fact that they are out in public trying to persuade people of their position rules out gnosticism. Gnosticism involves some hidden knowledge that one gradually gets initiated into; they're out here taking a scientific/theological position publicly. There's nothing gnostic about that. One might disagree with them and consider them wrong, but that's a separate issue.

Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence.. (Read 60917 times)

WholeFoodsTrad

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Smedley Butler

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Neil Obstat

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Jaynek

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Neil Obstat

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Neil Obstat

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Neil Obstat

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Jaynek

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

happenby

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Smedley Butler

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Meg

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Smedley Butler

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Meg

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Smedley Butler

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Ladislaus

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..