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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 58261 times)

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Offline happenby

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  • Yes, and by way of example again, the advocates of the Vll Council falsely believe that the Council was infallible and that its "teachings" must be accepted.
    The Council was pastoral and it says so.  Nothing contrary to tradition can be tolerated.  Its so simple. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Granted, the Pope's rescinding of the prohibition against heliocentrism may have been in error.  But decrees of the Holy Office are generally considered to be the application of doctrine to specific cases and not Magisterial themselves ... and are therefore not inherently infallible nor irreformable.


    Offline happenby

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  • Granted, the Pope's rescinding of the prohibition against heliocentrism may have been in error.  But decrees of the Holy Office are generally considered to be the application of doctrine to specific cases and not Magisterial themselves ... and are therefore not inherently infallible nor irreformable.
    Once the Church uses the language, "say, declare, define," and bases Her statement on scripture, infallibility is implied. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • From Catholic Encyclopedia:
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13136a.htm

    Quote
    As regards the doctrinal value of Decrees of the Holy Office it should be observed that canonists distinguish two kinds of approbation of an act of an inferior by a superior: first, approbation in common form (in forma communi), as it is sometimes called, which does not take from the act its nature and quality as an act of the inferior. Thus, for example, the decrees of a provincial council, although approved by the Congregation of the Council or by the Holy See, always remain provincial conciliar decrees. Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff, that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Once the Church uses the language, "say, declare, define," and bases Her statement on scripture, infallibility is implied.

    see my previous post --

    defining is simply ONE note of infallibility


    Offline happenby

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  • From Catholic Encyclopedia:
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13136a.htm
    Thank you for this.  It is an important distinction.  It also says that said decrees may indeed be infallible.  That this decree was certainly infallible is forwarded by two Catholic authors, namely, Paula Haigh and Fr. William Roberts. 
     
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    Taking her information from The Pontifical Decrees against the Doctrine of the Earth's Movement and the Ultramontane Defense of Them , compiled in 1870 by the English Catholic priest William W. Roberts, the Catholic creationist writer Paula Haigh has pointed out that a generation after Galileo's death:
    "In 1664 the Church went to further lengths to extirpate his error: The Index for that year was prefixed by a Bull. Entitled Speculatores Domus Israel, it was signed by Pope Alexander VII, who declared, 'We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.'
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    "The importance of this docuмent cannot be minimized, for it included and re-affirmed not only previous formal condemnations, but 'all the relevant decrees up to the present time, that have been issued since the Index of our predecessor Clement'" Miss Haigh therefore rightly concludes, "The evidence for papal infallibility in the Galileo case rests then upon the Bull of Alexander VII in 1664."
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    She discerns a twofold basis for its authority: "1) The decrees of the Index and the Inquisition which were based on the truth of the Church's tradition, especially as in this case it rested upon the unanimity of the Fathers and the constant position of the Church; and 2) the infallibility of the Pope speaking in his own official capacity as Head of the Church and therefore ex cathedra, even though not defining any new dogma but simply affirming tradition.
    "The modern theologians have never addressed the problem posed by this Bull of Alexander VII. If they had, they would need to admit its direct papal authority and search for some subsequent docuмent by a subsequent pope that formally and specifically abrogated, i.e., nullified the 1664 Bull. But no such docuмent has ever been found or produced.



    Sorry about the formatting/boxes, they wouldn't come off when I tried to remove them. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • This is actually a nice piece of apologetics regarding the "Galileo Affair".

    https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-galileo-controversy

    PS -- I'm still a geocentrist myself despite the lifting of this prohibition.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Thank you for this.  It is an important distinction.  It also says that said decrees may indeed be infallible.  That this decree was certainly infallible is forwarded by two Catholic authors, namely, Paula Haigh and Fr. William Roberts.  

    Sure; that's their opinion.  On the other hand we have a pope who, by lifting the prohibition, did not consider it infallible.  Currently the status is that Catholics can entertain the notion that the earth moves without sin ... basing their conscience on the last word from that pope.  Whether he was right or not is a different matter.  I am a geocentrist myself and believe that the earth does NOT move.  I am still undecided about flat earth.


    Offline Jaynek

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  • I have shown throughout these threads that there is not only a perennial teaching, but that it is held by all the Church Fathers who taught on the matter. Plus, it all dovetails completely with Scripture.  AND the Church condemned the contrary model in 1633. AND simple empirical scientific methods of science and math back the whole of flat geocentric earth.  That is a enough duck parts to call it a duck.  You, on the other hand, have no proof except to say that the proof isn't there.  You don't have so much as a feather of proof for your model.  You are refusing to see what the Church teaches in favor of what you prefer, and that is entirely on you.
    I have provided plenty of proof that one should not use Scripture to show that the earth is flat.  I am not here to prove a model. I don't care if you think the earth is flat. I object to the flat earthers misrepresenting the position of the Church and using Scripture for a purpose for which it is not intended.

    The shape of the earth means nothing in comparison to the errors you are making about Church teaching and Scripture. I would object even if I thought the earth were flat.  You have not shown a perennial teaching of flat earth.  You have shown that you have no idea about what is true or real.  If someone like you thinks the earth is flat that is almost evidence in itself that the earth is a globe.

    Offline Meg

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  • Exactly. When I started arguing that they should not use Scripture and the Fathers to prove flat Earth, because it's not possible, I was almost on board the Flatty train. Since seeing the type of people that advocate it and how they portray those who don't see it their way, I have since abandoned searching for the shape of the Earth.

    You have a similar view to that the Novus Ordo folks who can't stand Tradition and the TLM due to the behavior of some trads (like sedes).

    However, whatever behavior it is that is disliked doesn't really affect the shape of the earth, anymore than bitter trads affect the goodness and rightness of the TLM.

    I don't see that any flat-earthers are lying. You would accuse the same about someone who believes that the Pope is the Pope, when really we just have a strong disagreement about the subject. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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  • Sure; that's their opinion.  On the other hand we have a pope who, by lifting the prohibition, did not consider it infallible.  Currently the status is that Catholics can entertain the notion that the earth moves without sin ... basing their conscience on the last word from that pope.  Whether he was right or not is a different matter.  I am a geocentrist myself and believe that the earth does NOT move.  I am still undecided about flat earth.
    Indeed, it is only two Catholic's opinions.  But these opinions maintain agreement across several realms: Tradition, Scripture, decrees of the Holy Office, true science and even mathematics.  What is fascinating to me is that all these can jive perfectly, yet people maintain the opposite opinion because it might be ok to do so.  They have nothing supporting their theories except NASA and modern science, entities utterly immersed in pagan religious beliefs of Pythagoras, Copernicus, Newton, Keplar, Einstein, etc.  Since the decrees can be infallible, and because the language throughout the Galileo Affair was directed and emphatic, it doesn't follow that the Church was mistaken or not employing infallibility (IMHO), especially knowing how seriously the model has affected the world today.  Another thing: No one can prove one of these three things was missing in the decrees of the Galileo Affair...

    Three conditions must be met for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility: (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful.     
    The matter was declared a matter of Faith, the words were spoken in a solemn manner and formula, and the decrees were not proven outside the Pope's official capacity, but were absolutely supported by the reigning pontiff as well as subsequent popes.  I think anyone would be hard pressed to prove these decrees and affirmations not infallible.  Also, if they are not infallible for some reason, doesn't mean they are faulty.  Too many Catholics familiar with the subject came out swinging against heliocentrism a very long time ago and all along the way in some capacity. 

    As far as flat earth, the massive amount of science and math always prove helpful and its good you're looking into it.  The answers are definitely out there and each person is affected by different kinds of proofs.  Ultimately, for me, knowing the Church speaks for the Holy Ghost who never lies, it is quite edifying to know that the Church preceded science in Her assessment of the matter, albeit controversially, while suffering great disdain.  That is why I answered that it was the most compelling evidence, because that is the ultimate proof for me.      


    Offline happenby

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  • I have provided plenty of proof that one should not use Scripture to show that the earth is flat.  I am not here to prove a model. I don't care if you think the earth is flat. I object to the flat earthers misrepresenting the position of the Church and using Scripture for a purpose for which it is not intended.

    The shape of the earth means nothing in comparison to the errors you are making about Church teaching and Scripture. I would object even if I thought the earth were flat.  You have not shown a perennial teaching of flat earth.  You have shown that you have no idea about what is true or real.  If someone like you thinks the earth is flat that is almost evidence in itself that the earth is a globe.
    The Church teaches that we must believe scripture.  Not believe contrary to scripture.  You have no proof that the Church teaches the opposite of what Scripture says.  In fact, the Church has shown she teaches as Scripture describes.  You will never prove that Scripture is too cryptic to understand, when in fact, it is only cryptic when compared to your notion that earth is a globe.  Scripture's descriptions unanimously point to a flat geocentric earth and not to a ball.  Building some weird premise against Scripture's description of flat earth because scripture doesn't use the words flat earth is a ridiculous endeavor sure to keep you in error.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • I think anyone would be hard pressed to prove these decrees and affirmations not infallible.  Also, if they are not infallible for some reason, doesn't mean they are faulty.

    I disagree with the first sentence above, but agree with the second.

    Offline Jaynek

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  • The Church teaches that we must believe scripture.  Not believe contrary to scripture.  You have no proof that the Church teaches the opposite of what Scripture says.  In fact, the Church has shown she teaches as Scripture describes.  You will never prove that Scripture is too cryptic to understand, when in fact, it is only cryptic when compared to your notion that earth is a globe.  Scripture's descriptions unanimously point to a flat geocentric earth and not to a ball.  Building some weird premise against Scripture's description of flat earth because scripture doesn't use the words flat earth is a ridiculous endeavor sure to keep you in error.  
    Most heretics also believe Scripture.  Anyone can claim to follow Scripture and make it say what he wants.  Even Satan did that when tempting Our Lord.

    The difference between Catholics and heretics is that Catholics accept that only the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture.  Of course, the Church does not teach the opposite of what Scripture says.  Rather the Church gives principles to follow when interpreting Scripture and you ignore them.  You then claim your faulty conclusions are a Church teaching.

    There is nothing cryptic about looking at the point of Scripture passages instead of trying to deduce science by taking figures of speech literally.  But if that is really too hard for you, then you should leave Scripture alone, not try to convince others of your errors.

    Offline happenby

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  • Most heretics also believe Scripture.  Anyone can claim to follow Scripture and make it say what he wants.  Even Satan did that when tempting Our Lord.

    The difference between Catholics and heretics is that Catholics accept that only the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture.  Of course, the Church does not teach the opposite of what Scripture says.  Rather the Church gives principles to follow when interpreting Scripture and you ignore them.  You then claim your faulty conclusions are a Church teaching.

    There is nothing cryptic about looking at the point of Scripture passages instead of trying to deduce science by taking figures of speech literally.  But if that is really too hard for you, then you should leave Scripture alone, not try to convince others of your errors.
    Most heretics believe Scripture incorrectly. I'm not claiming scripture says what I say it says.  The fact that the Fathers thought scripture says what it says, and the fact that scripture says what it says proves that it says what it says.  And I claim it says what the Fathers say.  And more amazingly, the words it uses backs that up!  You cannot prove it says the opposite of what the Fathers taught, or supports another model than what it describes.  You are the one that is tipping this whole thing over so scripture doesn't fit.  Scripture, the Church, the Fathers, science, mathematics are all in agreement from the very beginning.  How can my agreement with them be faulty?  Rather, it is your refusal to accept the agreement between these things that is faulty.  No where does scripture say the earth is a ball.  The Fathers do not teach it is a ball.  Reality doesn't reflect earth is a ball.  Science doesn't demonstrate earth to be a ball.  Mathematics deny earth is a ball.  My own eyeballs and experiments deny earth is a ball.  Water denies earth is a ball.  The horizon debunks any notion of the earth being a ball.  Compasses, gyros, sextants, astrolabes, levels, lighthouses, planes, altimeters, and a host of other instruments do not even remotely suggest earth is a ball but rather, an extended plane.  What, pray tell gives you any reason to believe earth is a ball?  Except a notion long ago proven pagan and at odds with the Church!