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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 58676 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
« Reply #345 on: December 31, 2017, 08:15:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Smedley Butler on December 31, 2017, 07:44:49 AM
    The passages flat earthers refer to on the shape are not figurative, nor are they a meraphorical part of a story, as in her example.

    And you are entitled to that opinion.  Other good Catholics have disagreed with you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #346 on: December 31, 2017, 08:16:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Smedley Butler on December 31, 2017, 07:50:11 AM
    You struggle with comprehension.
    You hold the second view,  the liberal one, an error. Pope Leo holds the traditional view.
    You do NOT hold Pope Leo's view.
    Nor do ypu agree with Benedict XV that the individual words are infallible.
    You stand in contradiction to both Popes.

    She does nothing of the sort.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #347 on: December 31, 2017, 08:18:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on December 31, 2017, 07:39:33 AM
    The problem is, it can't be at odds with scripture. Every description of earth in scripture describes not a ball but a flat earth. And all the Fathers who TAUGHT or extrapolated on the form of the earth also describe it not as a ball, but flat with a dome.
    Believing the earth is a globe is not at odds with Scripture.  Any passage that describes the earth as flat was not meant to "penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time" (Providentissimus Deus, 18.)  Any such passage was not intended to teach us about "the essential nature of the things of the visible universe" but to teach us truths  "profitable unto salvation."  The intended meaning of these passages is without error, but, by taking the figurative literally, you are making your own meaning.  
     
    It proves nothing if Church Fathers derived similar meanings because Pope Leo taught us that  "in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect." (Providentissimus Deus, 19) 

    Your assumptions about Scripture are at odds with what the Church teaches us about Scripture.  According to Leo XIII (and other popes) the intended meaning of Scripture is entirely compatible with believing in a globe earth. In no way, does holding this belief imply that one thinks there are errors in Scripture. There is no obligation whatsoever for Catholics to believe in a flat earth.  Believing in flat earth does not show a greater respect for Scripture or a deeper devotion to the Catholic faith. 
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #348 on: December 31, 2017, 09:17:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 31, 2017, 08:16:19 AM
    She does nothing of the sort.
    Yes, she does. 
    She promotes an even more pernicious error than globe earth: her error that "Church never intends to teach physical science. "
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #349 on: December 31, 2017, 09:20:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 31, 2017, 08:15:51 AM
    And you are entitled to that opinion.  Other good Catholics have disagreed with you.
    Also, you never answered my question: you find flat earth passages off-putting, as you stated. Do you find the other literal dogmatic truths equally off putting? Eat my flesh drink my blood? 
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #350 on: December 31, 2017, 09:29:59 AM »
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    • Examine Jaynek's false claim, in disagreement with the Popes, that the Church never intends to teach physical science:

    List of science teachings in the Bible:

    Man made from the slime of earth
    Woman made from man's rib
    Sun moon stars all different from earth
    Solid firmament divides heaven from earth and holds back the waters above
    Earth rests on four pillars, does not float in space
    Sun circuits in the heavens above us
    Earth DOES NOT MOVE
    Stars will fall from heaven
    Waters on earth encircled to contain them
    Waters of the Great Deep are under the earth
    Waters above and below released for Great Flood
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #351 on: December 31, 2017, 09:45:24 AM »
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    • Let's play spot the metaphor:

    "He sitteth above the compass of the earth,  and the people are spread out like locusts beneath Him."
     
    Compass: literal
    Above: literal
    Beneath: literal
    People: literal
    Locusts: metaphor

    People are not locusts, they are described as being "like locusts" because there are so many of them.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #352 on: December 31, 2017, 10:14:53 AM »
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    • Spot the metaphor:

    "When He set a compass on the face of the deep"

    He: literal
    Set: literal
    Compass: literal
    Face: metaphor
    Deep: literal


    He set (placed, constructed) a compass (circle) on (on) the face (surface) of the deep ( water).

    He built a circular wall on the surface of the waters to hold them in.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #353 on: December 31, 2017, 10:20:02 AM »
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #354 on: December 31, 2017, 10:28:45 AM »
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    • Spot the metaphor:

    "Hast thou with Him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"

    Him: literal
    Spread out: literal
    Sky: literal
    Strong: literal
    As: like
    Looking glass: metaphor

    The Firmament of the  sky is strong and like a looking glass.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #355 on: December 31, 2017, 10:41:46 AM »
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    • "Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see"

    All literal, no metaphor. 

    This is impossible on a globe. Globe earth renders this passage false. 
    But the Bible cannot err, therefore the globe earth is what is false. 

    "Every eye shall see" is only possible because earth is a flat plane. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #356 on: December 31, 2017, 10:50:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Smedley Butler on December 31, 2017, 09:20:35 AM
    Also, you never answered my question: you find flat earth passages off-putting, as you stated. Do you find the other literal dogmatic truths equally off putting? Eat my flesh drink my blood?

    I never said that.  I said that i find some of your attitudes off-putting.  I'm open on the flat earth question.  You constantly distort what other people say so that it's impossible to have any constructive dialogue with you.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #357 on: December 31, 2017, 10:52:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Smedley Butler on December 31, 2017, 10:28:45 AM
    Spot the metaphor:

    "Hast thou with Him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"

    Him: literal
    Spread out: literal
    Sky: literal
    Strong: literal
    As: like
    Looking glass: metaphor

    The Firmament of the  sky is strong and like a looking glass.

    And where exactly is the flatness?  Have you never seen curved glass?  In fact, you claim that there's curved glass in airplane windows that causes people to see curvature.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #358 on: December 31, 2017, 11:09:17 AM »
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    • You've confused me with someone else,  I never said that.  Plane windows do not cause earth to look curved. I have an entire collection of my own flat horizon photos taken from my windowseat.
    The earth is a FLAT circle (compass) as the Bible says. 
    The Firmament is curved above it (vault, tent, dome) as the Bible says. 
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #359 on: December 31, 2017, 11:18:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 28, 2017, 07:32:02 PM
    I have not ruled out FE myself ... from a scientific standpoint.  Nevertheless, I find the flat-earther allegation that this is basically dogmatic truth to be really offputting.  I've already explained why I find that completely untenable.
    This:
    Are the truths of the Bible dogmatic or not?
    The Bible says earth is a compass with a dome over it - not a globe. 
    Do you think that is not true?
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