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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 58640 times)

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Offline happenby

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  • I started a thread recently called "Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him" in which I explained just how this position is compatible with the later withdrawal of the condemnation by papal decree.  All your objections are addressed in my posts there.

    I don't care if the earth is a sphere or not.  I care that you are misunderstanding/opposing Church teaching on interpreting Scripture.  A correct understanding of Scripture is central to our faith, while the shape of the earth is completely irrelevant.
    Fr. Chad Ripperger has an excellent rebuttal (by general consensus of philosophers) to your notion that it doesn't matter what shape the earth is. 

    "People's denial of the knowledge of God, or that you can come to a knowledge of God, is rooted in certain metaphysical problems in relationship to reality. The common teaching among philosophers is, what your cosmology is, how you view the physical world, the world around you, will determine what your understanding of who God is.  Due to modern philosophers, People's understanding of the real world has degraded their ability to actually understand things about God by the natural light of reason." 

    Quote found at about minute 5 and a half. 
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ripperger+metaphysics%2C+evolution%2C+divorce

    Offline happenby

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  • Jaynek has been shown to have zero understanding of exegesis,  and lamely argues a la Bill Clinton what the meaning of is, is.
    She is not at all credible.
    She really does cling to the ball like plastic wrap.


    Offline happenby

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  • Wrong. The passage doesn't say that we can't interpret the bible in terms of physical science, or that we cannot view anything regarding the physical universe.

    You didn't read the rest of what I wrote. We must look to historical references to determine what the ancient authors were intending. THAT'S what the passage was speaking to. We look to the ancient Hebrew conception of the universe, which lines up with Genesis.

    If you are not comfortable with using scripture to demonstrate a flat earth, that's up to you. But we will be doing as such, even in the midst of your continual accusations.

    God created the Heaven and Earth. It is not irrelevant to our Faith.
    Indeed Meg, God created Heaven and Earth and described it for us.  Jaynek's argument is with God. 

    Offline Meg

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  • Indeed Meg, God created Heaven and Earth and described it for us.  Jaynek's argument is with God.

    Agreed.

    We reiterate this when we say our daily prayers..."I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.."
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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  • Agreed.

    We reiterate this when we say our daily prayers..."I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.."
    Yes! Its amazing how so many things gel when the cloud of lies that prevented our seeing before obscured all such details.  And I will add specifically to your post that most don't even consider that God delineates these two realms for a reason.  Maker of heaven and earth.  Fantastic Meg.


    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • Fr. Chad Ripperger has an excellent rebuttal (by general consensus of philosophers) to your notion that it doesn't matter what shape the earth is.  

    "People's denial of the knowledge of God, or that you can come to a knowledge of God, is rooted in certain metaphysical problems in relationship to reality. The common teaching among philosophers is, what your cosmology is, how you view the physical world, the world around you, will determine what your understanding of who God is.  Due to modern philosophers, People's understanding of the real world has degraded their ability to actually understand things about God by the natural light of reason."  

    Quote found at about minute 5 and a half.  
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ripperger+metaphysics%2C+evolution%2C+divorce
    Brilliant! 
    "How you view the physical world determines your understanding of God."
    That gives me joy.

    Offline Jaynek

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  • Wrong. The passage doesn't say that we can't interpret the bible in terms of physical science, or that we cannot view anything regarding the physical universe.

    You didn't read the rest of what I wrote. We must look to historical references to determine what the ancient authors were intending. THAT'S what the passage was speaking to. We look to the ancient Hebrew conception of the universe, which lines up with Genesis.

    If you are not comfortable with using scripture to demonstrate a flat earth, that's up to you. But we will be doing as such, even in the midst of your continual accusations.

    God created the Heaven and Earth. It is not irrelevant to our Faith.
    Right. That paragraph explained that the literal sense of Scripture means the sense intended by the author. An earlier paragraph explained the Sacred authors do not intend to teach about natural science. When we put those two facts together we see that taking the literal sense of Scripture means we should not use it to draw conclusions about science. 

    I did read the rest of what you wrote. There are times when it is helpful to look at history to understand the author's intent. But nothing in history will tell you they intended to write about science when the Church has already taught that they did not. 

    This has nothing to do with what I am comfortable with. You are not following Church teaching. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Scripture may very well use language that suggests the earth is flat.  But this does not mean it is teaching that the earth is flat because, as the Church tells us, Scripture is not intended to teach about physical science. You are drawing incorrect conclusions from what Scripture says because you are not taking its intent into consideration.

    And I could speak about the flat open plains of the central United States even if I believe that the earth is a sphere.  Use of the term "flat" doesn't necessarily have an absolute meaning but could be a relative term.  Even if Scripture doesn't intend to teach about it, there can be no error in Scripture.  But terms can be used in different ways.  I can say that the sun moved across the sky and that does not by itself mean I'm a geocentrist (even though I personally am).  Motion is relative, and so are various other descriptive terms that are not necessarily used in an absolute way.  But let's be very careful with the "Scripture does not intend to teach about ..." terminology, for the modernists use the same expression to explain why there are historical "errors" (in their reckoning) in Scripture.  While Scripture does not intend to teach about history per se, there can be no historical errors in Scripture.  Period.  When Scripture refers to the "vault" of the heavens, that could be a metaphorical term rather than the scientific description of a physical structure.  Scripture could say something like, "And Jesus said..." but the words that follow don't necessarily have to be direct quotes (in our modern understanding) but could be paraphrases about the essence of what He said.  That's not an error but just a different understanding of how the authors of Sacred Scripture made citations (direct vs. indirect quotations).

    So we have to walk a fine line between being too slavishly literal and absolute on the one hand and attributing even historical or scientific error to Scripture.


    Offline Meg

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  • Right. That paragraph explained that the literal sense of Scripture means the sense intended by the author. An earlier paragraph explained the Sacred authors do not intend to teach about natural science. When we put those two facts together we see that taking the literal sense of Scripture means we should not use it to draw conclusions about science.

    I did read the rest of what you wrote. There are times when it is helpful to look at history to understand the author's intent. But nothing in history will tell you they intended to write about science when the Church has already taught that they did not.

    This has nothing to do with what I am comfortable with. You are not following Church teaching.

    The Church does not teach that the earth is a globe. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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  • And I could speak about the flat open plains of the central United States even if I believe that the earth is a sphere.  Use of the term "flat" doesn't necessarily have an absolute meaning but could be a relative term.  Even if Scripture doesn't intend to teach about it, there can be no error in Scripture.  But terms can be used in different ways.  I can say that the sun moved across the sky and that does not by itself mean I'm a geocentrist (even though I personally am).  Motion is relative, and so are various other descriptive terms that are not necessarily used in an absolute way.  But let's be very careful with the "Scripture does not intend to teach about ..." terminology, for the modernists use the same expression to explain why there are historical "errors" (in their reckoning) in Scripture.  While Scripture does not intend to teach about history per se, there can be no historical errors in Scripture.  Period.  When Scripture refers to the "vault" of the heavens, that could be a metaphorical term rather than the scientific description of a physical structure.  Scripture could say something like, "And Jesus said..." but the words that follow don't necessarily have to be direct quotes (in our modern understanding) but could be paraphrases about the essence of what He said.  That's not an error but just a different understanding of how the authors of Sacred Scripture made citations (direct vs. indirect quotations).

    So we have to walk a fine line between being too slavishly literal and absolute on the one hand and attributing even historical or scientific error to Scripture.
    This is a good point to make clear. It is a major theme in the encyclicals I have been quoting. Benedict XV warned about people trying to misuse the teaching in support of modernism.  We can never hold that there errors in Scripture. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • The Church does not teach that the earth is a globe.

    Agreed.


    Offline Meg

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  • This is a good point to make clear. It is a major theme in the encyclicals I have been quoting. Benedict XV warned about people trying to misuse the teaching in support of modernism.  We can never hold that there errors in Scripture.

    Who provides you with all of those quotes, Jayne?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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  • Who provides you with all of those quotes, Jayne?
    I did research on the topic and found them in various places. 

    Offline Meg

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  • I did research on the topic and found them in various places.

    What places?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Carissima

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  • The Church does not teach that the earth is a globe.

    Then are we free to teach our children that it is??

    Some here on CI say it doesn’t matter if it’s flat or not, but are not some of them perhaps assisting children with homework and subjects in school that teach a clear model (i.e. solar system, endless universe, spinning ball with gravity, people that walk upside down underneath it) that when fully realized completely contradicts Scripture? 
    And would it not be for the sole purpose of undermining It (Scripture) and God’s Creation? :confused:

    ‘Where is The Firmament oh wise science textbook oracle?’