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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 62983 times)

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Offline happenby

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  • No, that's not necessarily true.  In order for there to be DOGMATIC consensus, there must be evidence that the Church Fathers considered the opinion a matter of faith and that their position is of Apostolic Origin.  Just because the majority of Church Fathers shared a particular scientific opinion, this does not by itself make it de fide.
    Ok, that's true.  Lets look at this subject and keep that in mind.  There is no question the Church considers this a matter of Faith because She teaches that heliocentric beliefs are heretical and against the Father's teachings!*  
    That the roundness of earth was omitted in the Galileo condemnations in no way suggests that it is actually somehow true. The Church chose Her condemnation statements carefully. The Church later condemned the Pythagorean/Copernican Doctrine. We know for certain that Copernicus is credited for having developed the theory that earth was a globe.  And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the entire Copernican model is the product of a delusional occult practitioner. Dare we believe that the devil worshiping Copernicus got the movements of sun and earth mixed up, but the earth-globe right?  Despite knowing that the earth was always described by the Fathers as flat and geocentric?      
    People who say the Church's stance in the Galileo Affair wasn't official or infallible are parroting stuff they read online.  They have no proof that the Church's statements are not infallible.  In fact, Fr. William Roberts wrote a book on the subject, "The Pontifical Decrees Against the Earth's Movement" which proves beyond any doubt that the Church brought the hammer down.  And interestingly, Fr. Roberts disagreed with the Church's stance!  A simple glance at the official statements (we say, declare, define...) tells any honest Catholic that the Church defined a teaching, here.
    Now, this may all sound inadequate at first, but there is absolutely nothing to support the Copernican Doctrine which includes many hidden heresies (mysteries, as they call it) beyond creation, earth and the cosmos.  The Copernican Doctrine is virtually identical to Luciferian teachings. So, while the Church did not take the time to condemn all the errors of the Copernican Doctrine specifically, She condemned it as a whole.  

    While you continue to study and find that lines are blurred at times, you'll also notice the two sides are firmly entrenched in their positions and always remain identifiable.  You'll always have those who try to muddy the water by explaining away the condemnations, and others will outright bludgeon the Church for having stepped out of Her bounds in condemning something about which She has no authority.  The first comes from the attempt to hold two opposing teachings. The latter is a lie for two reasons.  The Church states clearly, more than once, that Her reasons are to protect the veracity of scripture in this matter.  But even if the Church were to insist on anything that appeared to be on strictly scientific grounds, She alone maintains the authority, the right, the duty, to proscribe false science.  
    1870 – The First Vatican Council, Canons and Decrees, Chapter III, ...“the Church, which together with the apostolic office of teaching, has received a charge to guard the deposit of faith, derives from God the right and duty of proscribing false science, lest any should be deceived by philosophy and vain deceit.  

    * “We say, pronounce, sentence and declare that you, the said Galileo...have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine which is false and contrary to the Sacred and Divine Scriptures,

    1605-1621 Pope Paul V, issued a 1616 decree condemning pro-heliocentricity work of Galileo Galilei.
    1623-1644 Pope Urban VIII issued a 2nd decree [1633] condemning Copernicanism.
    1655-1657 Pope Alexander VII, issued a Bull [1664] reinforcing that Copernicanism was heretical.
    1740-1758 Reign of Pope Benedict XIV, who removed the Copernican books from the Index

    Offline happenby

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  • By the way, the Index has never been abolished or abrogated.

    (Paul VI's) Notification of 14 June 1966 does not mention the words "abrogate" or "abolish" in relation to the Index of Forbidden Books. Rather, it states that the Index retains "its moral force" (suum vigorem moralem)

    Some theologians argue that the Index is not repudiated nor condemned, despite its abolition. This view of the remaining moral obligation of not circulating or reading those writings was stated by Cardinal Ottaviani in 1966, in the same docuмent - Notification by Congregation for Doctrine of Faith: "This Congregation for Doctrine of Faith (...) reaffirms that its Index retains its moral value (...) in the sense that it is appealing to the conscience of the faithful (...) to be on their guard against written materials that can put faith and good conduct in danger" - Signed Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani, June 14, 1966).


    Offline Neil Obstat

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  • .
    Most flat-earthers are heretics.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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  • The Church is ever merciful to its flock.  However... 

    Genesis clearly implies that The Earth occupies an extremely important place, while The Copernican Principle clearly implies the opposite.  

    If The Church is true, then Genesis cannot be false.  

    If Genesis is true, then The Copernican Principle must be false and Creation must be geocentric.  

    If Creation is geocentric, then The Earth doesn't need to be round to fit The Model.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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  • What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    .
    All the amazing photos of celestial objects, taken by flat-earthers, is very compelling evidence.
    .
    It is surprising to find so many flat-earthers among celestial photographers!
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline happenby

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  • What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    .
    All the amazing photos of celestial objects, taken by flat-earthers, is very compelling evidence.
    .
    It is surprising to find so many flat-earthers among celestial photographers!
    Indeed, I just so happen to be a celestial photographer. There is no doubt whatsoever... the stars are not worlds; they are lights. The moon is not 250,000 miles away, an impossibility considering I can get detailed shots with my camera. And the repeat movement of the constellations year after year proves they travel in the primum mobile has always taught and believed.  My camera proves history and the geocentric flat earth every day.

    Offline happenby

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  • Here is the star Sirius filmed on a Samsung Galaxy Edge7.  A star 8.611 light years from Earth. Filmed with a cellphone.       

    Offline Meg

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  • The Church is ever merciful to its flock.  However...

    Genesis clearly implies that The Earth occupies an extremely important place, while The Copernican Principle clearly implies the opposite.  

    If The Church is true, then Genesis cannot be false.  

    If Genesis is true, then The Copernican Principle must be false and Creation must be geocentric.  

    If Creation is geocentric, then The Earth doesn't need to be round to fit The Model.  

    Good observations.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Meg

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  • Here is the star Sirius filmed on a Samsung Galaxy Edge7.  A star 8.611 light years from Earth. Filmed with a cellphone.      

    The star Sirius does seem to be emitting light, rather than reflecting it.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline kiwiboy

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  • I did not lie. You lie by saying I lie.
    It is exactly like I say it is. Lacantius is the only Father to condemn the Globe Earth. These are nice quotes from St. Jerome but they do not condemn Globe Earth. They merely state his personal belief in the Flat Earth.


    You need to stop presenting Flat Earth as if it is Dogma taught by the Church and as if it is clearly in Scripture. It is not. No one is obliged to believe it.

    "both these opinions are here swept away" - sounds like a condemnation to me.

    "There are some who assert that this mass is like a point and globe...What, then, will the land be over ...?" In other words he is against it. Another condemnation

    "well‐rounded  globe ...  overwhelmed  in  the  chaos  of  error" another condemnation. Pretty strong if you ask me.

    But hey, perhaps you have a better grasp of the English language than me.

    Offline kiwiboy

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  • A condemnation sounds like this: "it is forbidden to believe" or "it is heresy to accept this or that" or "it would be contrary to the faith delivered to the Apostles to believe" etc...

    What this all sounds like is a difference of two valid opinions. There are people who think liver and onions taste good. I think they are wrong and Scripture doesn't tell us what we are to believe one way or the other. Therefore, I will not condemn those who like liver and onions. It's a crude analogy I know, but liver and onions has as much impact on our spiritual well-being as to the shape of the Earth and Creation.

    St. Basil's condemnation of people like you who "have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture" is far harsher that what you quoted above. He thinks that you believe yourself to be "wiser than the Holy Spirit". You should really think about that. You should also think about the fact that we have at least one Church Father explicitly opposed to your opinion that Scripture describes a flat Earth. This in itself proves that it is not de fide. Not to mention the other Ancient Church Fathers that spoke positively of the Globe Earth.

    St. Basil, Hexaemeron: "It will not lead me to give less importance to the creation of the universe, that the servant of God, Moses, is silent as to shapes; he has not said that the earth is a hundred and eighty thousand furlongs in circuмference; he has not measured into what extent of air its shadow projects itself whilst the sun revolves around it, nor stated how this shadow, casting itself upon the moon, produces eclipses. He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? Shall I not rather exalt Him who, not wishing to fill our minds with these vanities, has regulated all the economy of Scripture in view of the edification and the making perfect of our souls? It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written."

    Not just a crude analogy, but ridiculous.

    You're talking about preference. The quotes I gave show a complete rejection of the globe earth as absurd.

    I now don't think you are malicious as much as mentally ill in some way. Have you been to any kind of counselling? Or do you take some kind of medication? You don't have to say, if you feel that is private, but whatever the case, it is not prudent for you to be posting on public forums.


    Offline Truth is Eternal

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  • Maybe some of them completely rejected Globe Earth but that is not what you were arguing before. Now you are changing the argument. You said they condemned it. They rejected the opinion and not even that harshly. They did not condemn it, except for Lacantius as I've admitted before.This sounds like a guy who's beat. You have to resort to this kind of garbage. It's really sad what people will do to try to discredit the Truth.
    God created the flat earth; it is YOU who is beat. You will never win against God. God will never turn the earth into a sphere to validate your faulty science.

    Offline kiwiboy

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  • Maybe some of them completely rejected Globe Earth but that is not what you were arguing before. Now you are changing the argument. You said they condemned it. They rejected the opinion and not even that harshly. They did not condemn it, except for Lacantius as I've admitted before.This sounds like a guy who's beat. You have to resort to this kind of garbage. It's really sad what people will do to try to discredit the Truth.

    I have always talked about opinions of the Fathers. Whether they think it is philosophically or theologically erroneous is not really relevant, the point is that they were against it.

    You have been trying to claim that they were not against it at all, except for Lactentius. Which is dishonest on your part.

    But I do think it is down to your mental illness, so I give you a pass. Try though, to restrain from posting on public boards. It is quite embarrassing for us as all as Traditional Catholics, not to mention bad for yourself.

    Offline kiwiboy

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  • God created the flat earth; it is YOU who is beat. You will never win against God. God will never turn the earth into a sphere to validate your faulty science.

    Amen brother.

    Offline happenby

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  • Yes, indeed, the point being made above is that the spin-doctor globalists on this thread remain consistent about being inconsistent.  They hold no defend-able position, except to maintain the status quo, deflect whatever information comes their way and declare the truth void while they shoot off their mouths hoping to kill the messenger. No matter what the related topic, FE science, FE math, Catholic tradition, it doesn't matter, they just lather, rinse and repeat. 

    Here is a recap for this particular thread:

    1.Globers insist that the majority of saints did not not think earth was flat.  When evidence was produced, they deflect and say:
    2."The majority of saints who thought earth flat are not enough to believe earth is flat with certainty."  So more proofs are provided, but they put up the next deflection.
    3.They claim Scripture doesn't say earth is flat.  Given more proofs they just hide behind the next bush: 
    4.They insist the Galileo Affair didn't teach anything infallibly.  Given proofs to the contrary, they go to the next hiding place:
    5.They say the Galileo Affair had nothing to do with Scripture, the Church or FE, but only moving earth. Besides being given more proofs, also see 1,2 and 3.   

    Round and round and round they go in their heliocentric-merry-go-round-mind-set.  Reminds me of the OJ case.  Keep deflecting the evidence while insisting the glove didn't fit.   

    Now the hardened globers will say the proofs given were insufficient. But either they did not even read the proofs, and/or they never really considered them. The truth is, they are so enamored of the benefits of being "modern with a twist" (geocentric ball), that they can't handle the truth. Guaranteed they don't want to be called stupid the way they do to others. Beyond that, there are some who reject FE for lack of credentials. These types reject the obvious simply because it comes from a lowly place.  Once and for all, these slippery tactics prove again and again that entrenched globalists are snobs locked into self worship and human respect to the point that they simply cannot handle the truth.