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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 29291 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2017, 06:17:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 18, 2017, 11:56:03 AM
    I KNOW. That's my point. You can't provide any quote or citation that infallibly says that the shape of the Earth is flat or that the Earth is physically the center of the Universe. This is all I need to point out to prove my point. My point is that these two theories can not be proven using the Church. If one were to prove this scientifically, fine; I couldn't care less because this has NO RELEVANCE to salvation, the increase of holiness, or religion at all. Yes it's part of God's creation but that's all that's required of us in this matter, that we believe that God created it out of nothing and that He orders everything according to His Will.
    There is NOTHING INFALLIBLE from the Church that one may use to absolutely prove these two issues (FE & GC). That's why we can sit here and post non-Infallible quotes all day long. They will never prove your point. It's also sinful for you to imply that people are denying a Dogma of the Faith while offering no proof that it's a Dogma of the Faith, which would require something infallible.
    Well, that's not actually true.  I provided the statements and you reject them.  The Church spoke.  She used the definitive "say, declare, define". Fr. William Roberts wrote a book on the Church's infallible stance against Heliocentrism and Paula Haigh's article specifically shows why it is authentic teaching.  Please refrain from saying these teachings are not infallible.  You do not know the argument.  You are merely quoting ignorant people who say that online.  
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #31 on: December 18, 2017, 06:22:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 18, 2017, 12:14:45 PM
    No it didn't. Where does Trent speak on the Copernican interpretation of Scripture?
    Being that Copernicanism stands condemned and was always held by Fathers to be a model against the scriptures, what Meg is saying is that Trent very specifically speaks against ALL interpretation that is contrary to scripture.

    In 1564, the Council of Trent (Session IV, April  infallibly declared that that no one could “in matters of faith and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine...interpret the sacred Scriptures…even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.”  
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    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #32 on: December 18, 2017, 09:37:02 PM »
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    • Ancient Hebrew cosmology is full of subtleties that often go unnoticed by the contemporary reader
    In a nutshell, ancient Hebrew cosmology, as found in the Old Testament, considers the world in which we live a relatively flat disk, covered by a dome. Something like a gigantic cake stand covered with one of those classic glass domes, if you will.
    As you can see in the diagram included, below the disk you would find the Sheol (that is, the place of the dead, but not necessarily Hell; actually, this Sheol is a bit more like what the Greeks called Hades) and the so-called “deep waters”, the “waters underneath” or, even more dramatically, “the great deep.”
    Now above the dome, in the “outside” of the dome (who’d say?) you’d find even more water. You guessed it right: those are the “upper waters” and, above them, the “high heaven” or the “heaven of heavens”, where God Himself dwells, as can be seen in the graphic.

    In a nutshell, ancient Hebrew cosmology, as found in the Old Testament, considers the world in which we live a relatively flat disk covered by a dome. Something like a gigantic cake stand covered with one of those classic glass or acrylic domes, if you will.

    However... the idea that the sky is an enormous solid dome is not to be found exclusively in Hebrew cosmology. Actually, it wouldn’t be a mistake to say that such an idea is, to some extent, a common heritage of ancient peoples, particularly Mediterranean.

    https://aleteia.org/2016/07/07/when-the-earth-was-flat-a-map-of-the-universe-according-to-the-old-testament/


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    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #33 on: December 18, 2017, 09:41:20 PM »
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    • "In the Old Testament period the earth was most commonly thought of as a flat disc floating on water.[17] The concept was apparently quite similar to that depicted in a Babylonian world-map from about 600 BCE: a single circular continent bounded by a circular sea,[50] and beyond the sea a number of equally spaced triangles called nagu, "distant regions", apparently islands although possibly mountains.[51] The Old Testament likewise locates islands alongside the earth; (Psalm 97:1) these are the "ends of the earth" according to Isaiah 41:5, the extreme edge of Job's circular horizon (Job 26:10) where the vault of heaven is supported on mountains.[52] Other OT passages suggest that the sky rests on pillars (Psalm 75:3, 1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6), on foundations (Psalms 18:7 and 82:5), or on "supports" (Psalm 104:5),[53] while the Book of Job imagines the cosmos as a vast tent, with the earth as its floor and the sky as the tent itself; from the edges of the sky God hangs the earth over "nothing", meaning the vast Ocean, securely supported by being tied to the sky (Job 26:7).[54] If the technical means by which Yahweh keeps the earth from sinking into the chaos-waters are unclear, it is nevertheless clear that he does so by virtue of his personal power.[55]
    The idea that the earth was a sphere was developed by the Greeks in the 6th century BCE, and by the 3rd century BCE this was generally accepted by educated Romans and Greeks and even by some Jєωs.[56][23] The author of Revelation, however, assumed a flat earth in 7:1.[57] The question of whether the earth was flat, as Scripture seemed to indicate, or spherical as the Greeks taught, was an area in which early Church fathers frequently disagreed, and it was not until the European Middle Ages that the question was settled in favor of the round earth.[23]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology#Earth
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #34 on: December 19, 2017, 10:43:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 19, 2017, 08:16:17 AM
    Being that Copernicanism stands condemned and was always held by Fathers to be a model against the scriptures, what Meg is saying is that Trent very specifically speaks against ALL interpretation that is contrary to scripture.

    In 1564, the Council of Trent (Session IV, April infallibly declared that that no one could “in matters of faith and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine...interpret the sacred Scriptures…even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.”  

    There is nothing Infallible from the Church that the Earth is flat or that it's physically the center of the universe. This means that Catholics are free to understand those Scriptural passages in a spiritual sense. Most of those passages are meant to be allegorical, to convey a point useful for our spiritual well-being. You must remember that interpreting Scriptural literally means interpreting It in the manner in which the Author intended it. There is ample proof that we must not interpret Scripture in the literal sense of the literal meaning of every word.
    This means that Catholics are free to understand those Scriptural passages in a spiritual sense.

    What spiritual sense?  That earth is a globe?  Scripture doesn't support that either.  And the Church bases everything on the literal, so your statement is false. Scripture supports both in the literal and spiritual sense that earth is geocentric flat when it likens earth to the tabernacle and to the Church: With pillars, a veil, a dome, four corners, etc.  All these things are found in the Father's docuмents and cannot be dismissed in favor of a non-sequitur model that comes from pagans and destroys common sense, mocks science, promotes evolution and denies Church statements.  Mary was not officially declared immaculately conceived until the 1800's, but that doesn't mean that prior to the pronouncement that it was ok to say that she was a sinner like everyone else.  
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    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #35 on: December 19, 2017, 11:29:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 18, 2017, 09:32:39 AM
    There is one Church Father that condemns Globe Earth.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/church-fathers-did-not-condemn-flat-earth/

    Here are the quotes

    Where are those who say that the heaven is in motion? Where are those who think it is spherical? For both these opinions are here swept away.” - St. John

    God "[had] established the great mass of the land and had gathered it together above the seas and rivers, so that the heaviest element [earth] hangs over the lighter weight waters by the will of God, who like a king sits above the circle of the earth. There are some who assert that this mass is like a point and globe...What, then, will the land be over ...? - St. Jerome

     For *they*  say  that  the circuмference  of  the  world  is  likened  to  the  turnings  of  a  well‐rounded  globe,  the  earth  having  a central  point.... Now certainly  the  wretched  ones  were  overwhelmed  in  the  chaos  of  error,  “because  that,  when  they  knew  God, they  glorified  Him  not  as  God,


    EVEN SEVEN,
    YOU ARE A LIAR. YOU ARE SINNING BY LYING. YOU NEED TO APOLOGIZE TO ME AND CONFESS YOUR PUBLIC SIN OF LYING.

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    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #36 on: December 19, 2017, 11:39:08 AM »
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    • For *they*  say  that  the circuмference  of  the  world  is  likened  to  the  turnings  of  a  well‐rounded  globe,  the  earth  having  a central  point.... Now certainly  the  wretched  ones  were  overwhelmed  in  the  chaos  of  error,  “because  that,  when  they  knew  God, they  glorified  Him  not  as  God,

    An Even Seven, you missed St. Jerome's point entirely.  This quote shows St. Jerome did not believe in the globe.  Because he said, "They" say that the circuмference of the world is likened to the turnings of a well-rounded globe...

    But St. Jerome finishes with something like, "But what would the land be over?"  

    Showing that St. Jerome thought pagan musings about the world being a globe was stupid.  

    This is why people just need to believe the Church's statements because most are unable to read and understand what the docuмents really say and can wrest them to their own destruction.    
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #37 on: December 19, 2017, 11:46:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on December 19, 2017, 11:39:08 AM
    For *they*  say  that  the circuмference  of  the  world  is  likened  to  the  turnings  of  a  well‐rounded  globe,  the  earth  having  a central  point.... Now certainly  the  wretched  ones  were  overwhelmed  in  the  chaos  of  error,  “because  that,  when  they  knew  God, they  glorified  Him  not  as  God,

    An Even Seven, you missed St. Jerome's point entirely.  This quote shows St. Jerome did not believe in the globe.  Because he said, "They" say that the circuмference of the world is likened to the turnings of a well-rounded globe...

    But St. Jerome finishes with something like, "But what would the land be over?"  

    Showing that St. Jerome thought pagan musings about the world being a globe was stupid.  

    This is why people just need to believe the Church's statements because most are unable to read and understand what the docuмents really say and can wrest them to their own destruction.    

    It's good that you explained St. Jerome's comment, which is important. 

    I would like to add that St. Jerome was fluent in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. He had access to some of the original biblical docuмents, from what I've read, and he was mostly (though not solely) responsible for putting together the Latin Vulgate (commissioned by the pope at the time to do so) which most of us use.
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #38 on: December 19, 2017, 12:08:00 PM »
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    • What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    .
    Since so many amateur astronomers are flat-earthers that alone is the single most compelling piece of evidence.
    .
    Why, it's so easy to find flat-earthers among amateur astronomers. They're a dime a dozen.
    .
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #39 on: December 19, 2017, 12:57:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 19, 2017, 11:54:43 AM
    I did not lie. You lie by saying I lie.
    It is exactly like I say it is. Lacantius is the only Father to condemn the Globe Earth. These are nice quotes from St. Jerome but they do not condemn Globe Earth. They merely state his personal belief in the Flat Earth.

    You need to stop presenting Flat Earth as if it is Dogma taught by the Church and as if it is clearly in Scripture. It is not. No one is obliged to believe it.
    It is clearly in scripture for those who have eyes to see. But also, one of the most ardent Fathers who condemned the pagan notion of the heliocentric globe doctrine was St Robert Bellarmine. St John Chrysostom as well. So again your statement is false.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #40 on: December 19, 2017, 01:01:35 PM »
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    • What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
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    Isn't it wonderful to know there are so many astronomers that are also flat-earthers?
    .
    I mean, that alone is proof positive, you know?
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #41 on: December 19, 2017, 03:12:03 PM »
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    • What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
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    Why, it's a piece o' cake to find astronomers that are flat-earthers. They're all over the place!
    .
    They love to explain how their tracking systems work for the flat-earth model.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #42 on: December 19, 2017, 03:16:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 19, 2017, 01:04:56 PM
    You will need to provide where in Scripture it specifically says the Earth is Flat. You also need to provide the Dogma where the Church says that the Earth is flat in order to win this particular argument. If you cannot do this you need to immediately stop presenting flat Earth as if it is an article of faith that must be held for salvation. You and your friends are lying and misleading people.
    I will NEVER stop telling the truth.  It has been said many times in these threads that scripture does not specifically, say "in those words" that earth is flat.  But that doesn't mean scripture doesn't teach a very specific model completely embodied in geocentric flat earth that the Fathers also held since the beginning. Missing the point again and again will not change facts.  But it will send you off into another trajectory that leads to heresy.          
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #43 on: December 20, 2017, 08:59:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 20, 2017, 08:19:20 AM
    OR START....Here you go again with the dogmatic flatearthism. There is no teaching of the Church at all that says anything about what we are to believe the shape of the Earth is. Therefore, it CANNOT be heresy to disbelieve flat earth. What you are doing is schismatic.
    It is heresy to believe contrary to the unanimous teaching consensus of the Fathers and against scripture. Single quotes that seem to say it doesn't matter or that the Fathers are silent, are insufficient because they either don't reflect the same person's other related statements or which are making another point. I have provided only a fraction of what is available and two quotes seemingly denying the entire body of the rest are insufficient to draw the conclusion that it is perfectly ok to adopt a pagan model of God's creation. Consider BOD and the ridiculous attempts to deny what the Church teaches. Now, admittedly, the Church is much more militant and clear about the necessity of Baptism, because Baptism is more directly pertinent to every individual. That does not negate the import of the teachings of Geo Fe, just shows the necessity of Baptism for salvation is absolute. People can get to heaven without knowing the way God created the earth, at least up till now. But the depth and scope and danger of denying this truth is undermining respect for scripture and prevents people from understanding the beautiful message God has provided in scriptural types necessary for our understanding and for rejecting error. Believing contrary has serious consequences.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #44 on: December 20, 2017, 09:15:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on December 20, 2017, 08:59:25 AM
    It is heresy to believe contrary to the unanimous teaching consensus of the Fathers and against scripture.

    No, that's not necessarily true.  In order for there to be DOGMATIC consensus, there must be evidence that the Church Fathers considered the opinion a matter of faith and that their position is of Apostolic Origin.  Just because the majority of Church Fathers shared a particular scientific opinion, this does not by itself make it de fide.
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