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Author Topic: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"  (Read 11186 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2018, 05:52:27 AM »
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  • Happy to help!
    A review of Special Creation Rediscovered here:
    http://kolbecenter.org/review-of-special-creation-rediscovered/
    Gerry was a foundational member of Kolbe Centre. A brilliant man. May he rest in peace.
    Thanks.  That Kolbe Centre site is a great resource for me.  All my years attending Novus Ordo, everyone took for granted that theistic evolution was an acceptable view for Catholics. And usually the discussions I've seen on trad forums have been about creationism vs. the obviously wrong atheistic evolution.  It is very helpful for me to see arguments specifically directed at theistic evolution.

    Online cassini

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #46 on: January 02, 2018, 03:18:16 PM »
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  • For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.

    The above was written in 1950. In 1951 the same pope, as I pointed out before, was uttering  to the PAS for all to hear:

    ‘44. It is undeniable that when a mind enlightened and enriched with modern scientific knowledge weighs this problem calmly, it feels drawn to break through the circle of completely independent or autochthonous matter, whether uncreated or self-created, and to ascend to a creating Spirit. With the same clear and critical look with which it examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence, whose power, set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced billions of years ago by the Creating Spirit, spread out over the universe, calling into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact, it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step back across millions of centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation, while the particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies.

    Now let us interpret Humani Generis. As far as Pope Pius XII is concerned, science has already shown there was a Big Bang millions of years ago and evolution of all followed. Humani Generis however ONLY CONCERNS ITSELF WITH THE EVOLUTION OR NOT OF THE HUMAN BODY. That he says has not been resolved yet BUT INFERRS THAT THIS COULD HAVE EVOLVED AND SCIENCE MUST BE CONSULTED before any of you go off thinking Adam's body did not evolve.



    Online cassini

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #47 on: January 02, 2018, 03:30:28 PM »
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  • Jane, there are two books by the same author – Gerard J Keane - which you should read to clear the fog:
    CREATION REDISCOVERED Evolution and The Importance of the Origins Debate (Approx 400 pages)
    And
    SPECIAL CREATION REDISCOVERED Catholicism and the Origins Debate (Approx 100 pages)
    .
    Also check out the Kolbe Centre for Creation
    http://kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-doctrine-of-creation/
    .
    Happy New Year to you and yours - another year of discovery.
    .
    I am afraid that theistic evolution is just another "Catholic" way to get rid of God, for those who can't handle atheistic evolution, and so many of us never knew. Still it's never too late. I came to reject it because of the work of Protestants, thankfully while I was homeschooling.
    Thanks for this post Nadir, I knew Jerry and arranged a tour for him in Ireland God knows how many years ago. He stayed in my house for a few days. He sent me his book before printing and I advised him that his chapter on Galileo was wrong and would some day be shown to be wrong. Unfortunately Gerry said it was hard enough to convince people that evolution was nonsense but if he went geocentric it would undermine his work on anti-evolution.
    Gerry's death came as a terrible shock. Yes, may he rest in peace.
    Thankfully today we have the Kolbe Centre. Get in touch and receive its newsletters. They are so Catholic.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #48 on: January 02, 2018, 07:08:50 PM »
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  • Interesting! Gerry asked me to arrange a tour through our diocese. He already had the written approval of our bishop. I organised all the venues, but it was thwarted by the vicar-general. Shortly after, the v-g left and became a funeral director and marriage celebrant! This was shortly before we left newchurch for good.

    I'll take your advice and sign up. Thank you cassini!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #49 on: January 07, 2018, 04:30:08 PM »
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  • "Pope St. Pius X in his 1907 Lamentabili Sane condemned the proposition “Divine inspiration does not extend to all of Sacred Scriptures so that it renders its parts, each and every one, free from every error” (LS 11)."

    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-scripture-inerrant
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #50 on: January 07, 2018, 04:44:18 PM »
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  • "Pope St. Pius X in his 1907 Lamentabili Sane condemned the proposition “Divine inspiration does not extend to all of Sacred Scriptures so that it renders its parts, each and every one, free from every error” (LS 11)."

    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-scripture-inerrant
    I have the impression that you think this contradicts what I am saying.  It does not.  I completely agree that Scripture is free from error.  But that does not mean that one ought to understand figurative expressions as if they were literal.

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #51 on: January 07, 2018, 07:23:34 PM »
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  • I have the impression that you think this contradicts what I am saying.  It does not.  I completely agree that Scripture is free from error.  But that does not mean that one ought to understand figurative expressions as if they were literal.
    Well, some people do think that The Bible is being figurative when it talks about places like Hell and that the pain of this life is the only  real Hell.  Is that what you mean?  No.  I doubt that.  Do you mean that The Six Days of Creation are figurative?  Could they really be 6 trillion days instead?  I'm not sure what you think about that.  Do you think The Virgin Birth was literal?  Did Christ really feed the five thousand or did they really mean, it was like thousands of people, but could have been just a large crowd that any old fishing boat could have fed with a small catch and Christ was just being generous, with some of The Disciples catch for the day? 
     
    My point is, when you start down this road, it begs the question:  where shall you draw the line?  I'm sure you think that you've drawn it in a "safe place."  Maybe you are right and maybe it will never bring you any trouble.  But, there are over 6 billion people in this World and they must be told where to draw The Line.  Otherwise, history has proved time and time again, that they will push the line further and further, to justify their growing appetite for Sin, until they finally deny the very Divinity of Christ.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #52 on: January 07, 2018, 08:11:32 PM »
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  • Well, some people do think that The Bible is being figurative when it talks about places like Hell and that the pain of this life is the only  real Hell.  Is that what you mean?  No.  I doubt that.  Do you mean that The Six Days of Creation are figurative?  Could they really be 6 trillion days instead?  I'm not sure what you think about that.  Do you think The Virgin Birth was literal?  Did Christ really feed the five thousand or did they really mean, it was like thousands of people, but could have been just a large crowd that any old fishing boat could have fed with a small catch and Christ was just being generous, with some of The Disciples catch for the day?
     
    My point is, when you start down this road, it begs the question:  where shall you draw the line?  I'm sure you think that you've drawn it in a "safe place."  Maybe you are right and maybe it will never bring you any trouble.  But, there are over 6 billion people in this World and they must be told where to draw The Line.  Otherwise, history has proved time and time again, that they will push the line further and further, to justify their growing appetite for Sin, until they finally deny the very Divinity of Christ.  
    Pope Leo, not I, drew the line and people who are following Church teaching know what it is:  

    " The sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation. Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time."

    This is very clear about what it applies to - things of the visible universe in no way profitable unto salvation.  It does not include the existence of hell, the Virgin Birth, events in the life of Christ, etc.  Nothing mentioned in the Creed can be affected by the principle of interpretation taught in Prudentissimus Deus.  It only concerns things like the shape of the earth.  

    It does not mean that anyone can throw out anything he feels like by claiming it is figurative.  You are manufacturing difficulties that do not really exist.





    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #53 on: January 07, 2018, 08:20:38 PM »
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  • Pope Leo, not I, drew the line and people who are following Church teaching know what it is:  

    " The sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation. Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time."

    This is very clear about what it applies to - things of the visible universe in no way profitable unto salvation.  It does not include the existence of hell, the Virgin Birth, events in the life of Christ, etc.  Nothing mentioned in the Creed can be affected by the principle of interpretation taught in Prudentissimus Deus.  It only concerns things like the shape of the earth.  

    It does not mean that anyone can throw out anything he feels like by claiming it is figurative.  You are manufacturing difficulties that do not really exist.

    "In 1893 Pope Leo XIII issued the most comprehensive treatment of Scripture interpretation the world had seen. Providentissimus Deus was a landmark encyclical that sought to correct the plethora of error about Scripture then circulating the world. In it, the pontiff traced the history of Scripture in the Catholic Church, addressed challenges, and defended the truth of Scripture. Pope Leo affirmed an unrestricted understanding of the inerrancy of Scripture:
     
    For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily, as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. . . . It follows that those who maintain that an error is possible in any genuine passage of the sacred writings either pervert the Catholic notion of inspiration or make God the author of such error (Providentissimus Deus, 20-21)."

    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-scripture-inerrant
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #54 on: January 07, 2018, 08:25:10 PM »
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  • "In 1893 Pope Leo XIII issued the most comprehensive treatment of Scripture interpretation the world had seen. Providentissimus Deus was a landmark encyclical that sought to correct the plethora of error about Scripture then circulating the world. In it, the pontiff traced the history of Scripture in the Catholic Church, addressed challenges, and defended the truth of Scripture. Pope Leo affirmed an unrestricted understanding of the inerrancy of Scripture:
     
    For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily, as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. . . . It follows that those who maintain that an error is possible in any genuine passage of the sacred writings either pervert the Catholic notion of inspiration or make God the author of such error (Providentissimus Deus, 20-21)."

    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-scripture-inerrant
    This is what I am trying to tell you.  There is no error in Scripture.  Your interpretation is the error.

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #55 on: January 07, 2018, 08:42:31 PM »
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  • This is what I am trying to tell you.  There is no error in Scripture.  Your interpretation is the error.
    Jayne, this quote immediately preceeds the one you often post:  

    " "Whatever they (he's referring to scientists) can really demonstrate to be true of physical nature, we must show to be capable of reconciliation with our Scriptures; and whatever they assert in their treatises which is contrary to these Scriptures of ours, that is to Catholic faith, we must either prove it as well as we can to be entirely false, or at all events we must, without the smallest hesitation, believe it to be so.""

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus.html

    We have been telling you ad nauseam, that it is contrary to The Bible and The Catholic Religion and it is Scientifically False.  Yet you seem to stubbornly refuse to give it a fair hearing.  That attitude is indeed in direct contradiction to The Spirit of Providentissimus Deus and is evident when these quotes of yours are  put into context, not "cherry picked" for the sake of argument. 




    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #56 on: January 07, 2018, 09:00:39 PM »
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  • We must either prove it to be false or believe it to be so.  That's the choice Leo gives us, as he quotes Augustine.  I believe we have proven it to be false and if we have, then all Catholics have a duty to believe it, according to Jayne's favorite Papal Encyclical.  So, if you don't want to end up a "Flatty," you'd better quit reading our threads or start proving us wrong and you'd better do a better job of it, than that Oaf Neil does!   :D

    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline happenby

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #57 on: January 08, 2018, 09:47:36 AM »
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  • Pope Leo, not I, drew the line and people who are following Church teaching know what it is:  

    " The sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation. Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time."

    This is very clear about what it applies to - things of the visible universe in no way profitable unto salvation.  It does not include the existence of hell, the Virgin Birth, events in the life of Christ, etc.  Nothing mentioned in the Creed can be affected by the principle of interpretation taught in Prudentissimus Deus.  It only concerns things like the shape of the earth.  

    It does not mean that anyone can throw out anything he feels like by claiming it is figurative.  You are manufacturing difficulties that do not really exist.
    This is not clear about what YOU say it applies to.  You decided that "in no way profitable unto salvation" applies to flat earth. And the Church teaches that heliocentrism is a danger to the Faith. Already, you're premise is made false. 

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #58 on: January 10, 2018, 03:53:04 PM »
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  • It is obvious, The Church has a duty to defend The Inerrancy of Scripture.  It is also obvious that Modern Science has made a mockery of The Bible.  Furthermore, it is obvious that The Fruits of Modern Science have been bitter.  So, as Catholics we should suspect that Modern Science is an Enemy to The Faith and as such, should stand ready to challenge it, when it contradicts The Faith/Scripture.  If we can show that it is False (something we should always be open minded to, since it has been so mendacious in other things), then we should attack it.  We have a duty to defend The Faith and The Scripture is our Faith.  It is The Word Of God.  

    Any truly decent scholar of Ancient Literature, regardless of their religion or lack thereof, will tell you, The Bible depicts a Flat and Motionless Earth, that was Created in 6 days and is several thousand years old.  Any truly Modern Scientist will tell that is hogwash.  So, either God is a liar or Modern Science (driven by Modernism) is.  

    If this is all too much for you, then I suggest your faith may be rooted in emotion or spiritual experience, but not reason.  Which of course, is o.k.  However, reason, if honest, open minded and humble, will inevitably lead to God.  

    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #59 on: January 11, 2018, 08:46:22 PM »
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  • .
    How about taking it up with Pope Leo XIII?
    .
    To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost, "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.