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Author Topic: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"  (Read 4008 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2018, 01:30:13 PM »
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  • Pius XII did tremendous harm to the faith by opening the door to this crap.
    So you agree that Humani Generis does allow Catholics to believe in theistic evolution but you have concluded that it is wrong?  

    I am just trying to make sure I understand what you are saying here.  I don't feel strongly enough about it to argue for it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #31 on: January 01, 2018, 01:52:20 PM »
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  • So you agree that Humani Generis does allow Catholics to believe in theistic evolution but you have concluded that it is wrong?  

    I am just trying to make sure I understand what you are saying here.  I don't feel strongly enough about it to argue for it.

    Pius XII opened the door to it, but he was wrong.  He also opened the door to NFP, and he was wrong about that too.  Pius XII started the liturgical experimentations with Bugnini ... also a huge mistake.  Pius XII appointed most of the bishops who brought us Vatican II ... no comment needed.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #32 on: January 01, 2018, 02:10:34 PM »
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  • Quote
    So you agree that Humani Generis does allow Catholics to believe in theistic evolution but you have concluded that it is wrong?  
    No, it does not allow theistic evolution.  I'm sure that the modernist "commentary" said it did, but it doesn't.  Pts 5 and 6 directly explain the dangers of evolution.

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #33 on: January 01, 2018, 02:17:49 PM »
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  • No, it does not allow theistic evolution.  I'm sure that the modernist "commentary" said it did, but it doesn't.  Pts 5 and 6 directly explain the dangers of evolution.

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
    Points 5 and 6 are talking about atheistic evolution.  There is no question that it is wrong.
    The idea of theistic evolution is to understand evolution in a way compatible with Catholic teaching. That is how most people seem to understand point 13:

    Quote
    For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #34 on: January 01, 2018, 02:35:03 PM »
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  • It says that the Church "does not forbid...research and discussions."  It does NOT say that it allows theistic evolution.  Liberals want us to think this, but all this says is that the Church is open to seeing "concrete" scientific facts (which pts 5/6 say do not exist yet).  And if concrete evidence does exist, since Science does not contradict Faith, then these two can be reconciled in the future.

    Yet, to date, the evidence for evolution (macro) is non-existent.  So, there's no such thing as theistic evolution.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #35 on: January 01, 2018, 02:47:43 PM »
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  • It says that the Church "does not forbid...research and discussions."  It does NOT say that it allows theistic evolution.  Liberals want us to think this, but all this says is that the Church is open to seeing "concrete" scientific facts (which pts 5/6 say do not exist yet).  And if concrete evidence does exist, since Science does not contradict Faith, then these two can be reconciled in the future.

    Yet, to date, the evidence for evolution (macro) is non-existent.  So, there's no such thing as theistic evolution.
    I had to reread it a few times, but I think I can see what you are saying now.  Thanks.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #36 on: January 01, 2018, 02:52:17 PM »
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  • Pius XII opened the door to it, but he was wrong.  He also opened the door to NFP, and he was wrong about that too.  Pius XII started the liturgical experimentations with Bugnini ... also a huge mistake.  Pius XII appointed most of the bishops who brought us Vatican II ... no comment needed.

    The courtship between Catholic faith and modern science reached a lower point on November 22, 1951 when Pope Pius XII once again addressed the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. The title of the Pope’s address was ‘The Proofs for the Existence of God in the Light of Modern Natural Science.’ What followed was an inferred endorsement of nearly every evolutionary theory on offer at the time, theories that (1) conflicted with the literal order of creation and the geocentric order of the universe held by the all the Church Fathers; (2) theories that denied the biblical age of 6-7,000 years for the universe; (3) theories that denied the global Flood as recorded in Genesis and its effect on the topography as we find it today, and God knows what else. Here is some of Pope’s speech:

    ‘44. It is undeniable that when a mind enlightened and enriched with modern scientific knowledge weighs this problem calmly, it feels drawn to break through the circle of completely independent or autochthonous matter, whether uncreated or self-created, and to ascend to a creating Spirit. With the same clear and critical look with which it examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence, whose power, set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced billions of years ago by the Creating Spirit, spread out over the universe, calling into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact, it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step back across millions of centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation, while the particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies.’

    48. On the other hand, how different and much more faithful a reflection of limitless visions is the language of an outstanding modern scientist, Sir Edmund Whittaker, member of the Pontifical Academy of Science, when he speaks of the above-mentioned inquiries into the age of the world: “These different calculations point to the conclusion that there was a time, some nine or ten billion years ago, prior to which the cosmos, if it existed, existed in a form totally different from anything we know, and this form constitutes the very last limit of science. We refer to it perhaps not improperly as creation. It provides a unifying background, suggested by geological evidence, for that explanation of the world according to which every organism existing on the Earth had a beginning in time. Were this conclusion to be confirmed by future research, it might well be considered as the most outstanding discovery of our times, since it represents a fundamental change in the scientific conception of the universe, similar to the one brought about four centuries ago by Copernicus.”

    50. It has, besides, followed the course and the direction of cosmic developments, and, just as it was able to get a glimpse of the term toward which these developments were inexorably leading, so also has it pointed to their beginning in time some five billion years ago. Thus, with that concreteness which is characteristic of physical proofs, it has confirmed the contingency of the universe and also the well-founded deduction as to the epoch when the cosmos came forth from the hands of the Creator.

     Yes, admits Pope Pius XII, it all began with Copernicus. Not for the first time a pope has placed the creation act and order into the hands of secular theory

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #37 on: January 01, 2018, 03:13:44 PM »
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  • The courtship between Catholic faith and modern science reached a lower point on November 22, 1951 when Pope Pius XII once again addressed the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. The title of the Pope’s address was ‘The Proofs for the Existence of God in the Light of Modern Natural Science.’ What followed was an inferred endorsement of nearly every evolutionary theory on offer at the time, theories that (1) conflicted with the literal order of creation and the geocentric order of the universe held by the all the Church Fathers; (2) theories that denied the biblical age of 6-7,000 years for the universe; (3) theories that denied the global Flood as recorded in Genesis and its effect on the topography as we find it today, and God knows what else. Here is some of Pope’s speech:

    ‘44. It is undeniable that when a mind enlightened and enriched with modern scientific knowledge weighs this problem calmly, it feels drawn to break through the circle of completely independent or autochthonous matter, whether uncreated or self-created, and to ascend to a creating Spirit. With the same clear and critical look with which it examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence, whose power, set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced billions of years ago by the Creating Spirit, spread out over the universe, calling into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact, it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step back across millions of centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation, while the particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies.’

    48. On the other hand, how different and much more faithful a reflection of limitless visions is the language of an outstanding modern scientist, Sir Edmund Whittaker, member of the Pontifical Academy of Science, when he speaks of the above-mentioned inquiries into the age of the world: “These different calculations point to the conclusion that there was a time, some nine or ten billion years ago, prior to which the cosmos, if it existed, existed in a form totally different from anything we know, and this form constitutes the very last limit of science. We refer to it perhaps not improperly as creation. It provides a unifying background, suggested by geological evidence, for that explanation of the world according to which every organism existing on the Earth had a beginning in time. Were this conclusion to be confirmed by future research, it might well be considered as the most outstanding discovery of our times, since it represents a fundamental change in the scientific conception of the universe, similar to the one brought about four centuries ago by Copernicus.”

    50. It has, besides, followed the course and the direction of cosmic developments, and, just as it was able to get a glimpse of the term toward which these developments were inexorably leading, so also has it pointed to their beginning in time some five billion years ago. Thus, with that concreteness which is characteristic of physical proofs, it has confirmed the contingency of the universe and also the well-founded deduction as to the epoch when the cosmos came forth from the hands of the Creator.

    Yes, admits Pope Pius XII, it all began with Copernicus. Not for the first time a pope has placed the creation act and order into the hands of secular theory
    Cassini your post beautifully sums up all of Jaynek's errors. 


    Online Nadir

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #38 on: January 01, 2018, 05:36:21 PM »
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  • Jane, there are two books by the same author – Gerard J Keane - which you should read to clear the fog:
    CREATION REDISCOVERED Evolution and The Importance of the Origins Debate (Approx 400 pages)
    And
    SPECIAL CREATION REDISCOVERED Catholicism and the Origins Debate (Approx 100 pages)
    .
    Also check out the Kolbe Centre for Creation 
    http://kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-doctrine-of-creation/
    .
    Happy New Year to you and yours - another year of discovery.
    .
    I am afraid that theistic evolution is just another "Catholic" way to get rid of God, for those who can't handle atheistic evolution, and so many of us never knew. Still it's never too late. I came to reject it because of the work of Protestants, thankfully while I was homeschooling.

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #39 on: January 01, 2018, 05:42:05 PM »
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  • I am afraid that theistic evolution is just another "Catholic" way to get rid of God, for those who can't handle atheistic evolution, and so many of us never knew.

    THIS ^^^

    Very well put.  If you believe in a Creator, there's ZERO need to posit an evolutionary process.  As I explained above, the similarities among living organisms (the premise of evolutionary theory) is easily explained by the mind of a Common Designer.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #40 on: January 01, 2018, 05:45:35 PM »
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  • Quote
    For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.

    This is a grave error by Pius XII.  "Slime of the Earth" -- pre-existing matter, yes, living matter, no.  Pre-existing matter means that God didn't create human beings ex nihilo but formed pre-existing matter ("slime of the earth") into the first human being, Adam.  But it contradicts Sacred Scripture to say that the human body came from living matter.  Then Eve was created from Adam ... not also some ape simultaneously with Adam.

    Unfortunately, it is well known that Pius XII was excessively enamored with the "the present state of human sciences", rather than seeing the world and their science as hostile to Catholic faith ... just read a good biography about him.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #41 on: January 01, 2018, 05:57:26 PM »
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  • Yes, Pius XII used slippery language (as he did with NFP):

    Quote
    Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution

    So the Church (meaning himself of course) "does not forbid" (uhm, it SHOULD), "research and discussions" (including those that reject evolution).  Very slippery language that falls JUST short of actually endorsing evolution.

    This is why I say that Pius XII "opened the door" for evolution.

    But the damage is done.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #42 on: January 01, 2018, 05:59:19 PM »
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  • Jane, there are two books by the same author – Gerard J Keane - which you should read to clear the fog:
    CREATION REDISCOVERED Evolution and The Importance of the Origins Debate (Approx 400 pages)
    And
    SPECIAL CREATION REDISCOVERED Catholicism and the Origins Debate (Approx 100 pages)
    .
    Also check out the Kolbe Centre for Creation
    http://kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-doctrine-of-creation/
    .
    Happy New Year to you and yours - another year of discovery.
    .
    I am afraid that theistic evolution is just another "Catholic" way to get rid of God, for those who can't handle atheistic evolution, and so many of us never knew. Still it's never too late. I came to reject it because of the work of Protestants, thankfully while I was homeschooling.
    Thanks for the recommendations.  The article you linked to was very thought-provoking and persuasive.  And I found a detailed description of the first Keane book:  http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/gjkeane/crreview.html
    It sounds really good.  I can see that I need to give a lot more thought and study to this topic.  This would be a great help.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #43 on: January 01, 2018, 06:26:38 PM »
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  • Quote
    So the Church (meaning himself of course) "does not forbid" (uhm, it SHOULD), "research and discussions" (including those that reject evolution).  Very slippery language that falls JUST short of actually endorsing evolution.
    This is exactly what modernists want in everything.  An APPARENT change to truth, but with no TECHNICAL change, so they can push the apparent change to the masses using their 'commentators' and the 'media' while they can also say to the "trads" that they are upholding Tradition.  

    Online Nadir

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #44 on: January 01, 2018, 08:51:55 PM »
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  • Thanks for the recommendations.  The article you linked to was very thought-provoking and persuasive.  And I found a detailed description of the first Keane book:  http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/gjkeane/crreview.html
    It sounds really good.  I can see that I need to give a lot more thought and study to this topic.  This would be a great help.
    Happy to help!
    A review of Special Creation Rediscovered here:
    http://kolbecenter.org/review-of-special-creation-rediscovered/
    Gerry was a foundational member of Kolbe Centre. A brilliant man. May he rest in peace. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.