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Author Topic: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"  (Read 4015 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2017, 09:35:08 PM »
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  • Jaynek,
    I've always been told that we are to understand scripture literally UNLESS the Church has said this or that passage is symbolic, metaphorical or prophecy.  Of course, we can't know that unless we read scripture with a concordance, which gives scriptural commentary.  


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #16 on: December 31, 2017, 10:07:22 PM »
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  • .
    Protestants read the Bible and think they have the ability to understand what it says without any help from the Church. They believe that by "dialogue" they can get together to have a "Bible study" by which they endeavor to "discover truth," presuming from the start that no one already has it. In this way, there ultimately are as many interpretations of Scripture as there are people reading it, and perhaps more, because over time one person can change what he thinks is meant by any Scripture passage.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #17 on: January 01, 2018, 06:15:57 AM »
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  • Jaynek,
    I've always been told that we are to understand scripture literally UNLESS the Church has said this or that passage is symbolic, metaphorical or prophecy.  Of course, we can't know that unless we read scripture with a concordance, which gives scriptural commentary.  

    I agree that it is very important to read Scripture with the mind of the Church and that using approved commentary can help us to do that.  Pope Leo mentions the issue of understanding Scripture literally in Providentissimus Deus (15) where he exhorts us to observe "the rule so wisely laid down by St. Augustine-not to depart from the literal and obvious sense, except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity requires."  This suggests that we ought to be applying reason to what we read to see whether a literal interpretation makes sense.

    For example, consider these words of Our Lord (John 15:4,5):
    Quote
    Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.  I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

    It does not make sense to say that our Lord is literally a vine. I think we are permitted to consider this a figure of speech without an explicit teaching from the Church telling us that it is.  Of course, whenever we draw such a conclusion we need to be prepared to change if we discover the Church teaching otherwise. 

    In the case of the flat earth issue we do have Church teaching to guide us.  Pope Leo XIII taught us that Scripture is not intended to teach "the essential nature of the things of the visible universe, things in no way profitable unto salvation"  and that such things are "described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time". So we are definitely justified in interpreting Scripture that way.

    There is also Pius X's teaching, specifically concerning Genesis, that "it was not the intention of the sacred author, when writing the first chapter of Genesis, to teach us in a scientific manner the innermost nature of visible things and the complete order of creation but rather to hand on to his people a popular account, such as the common parlance of that age allowed, adapted to the senses and to man’s capacity" so it is not necessary to treat it as if it were scientific information.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #18 on: January 01, 2018, 06:31:24 AM »
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  • Protestants read the Bible and think they have the ability to understand what it says without any help from the Church. They believe that by "dialogue" they can get together to have a "Bible study" by which they endeavor to "discover truth," presuming from the start that no one already has it. In this way, there ultimately are as many interpretations of Scripture as there are people reading it, and perhaps more, because over time one person can change what he thinks is meant by any Scripture passage.
    I was a Protestant for a few years in my youth and seeing the foolishness of Sola Scriptura was a key step in my process of becoming Catholic.  They themselves constantly prove how wrong it is by their own actions.

    I think this is why I am so troubled by seeing flat earthers interpreting Scripture contrary to Church teaching.  Because of my experience, I have really strong feelings about the Church having the sole authority to interpret Scripture.

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #19 on: January 01, 2018, 07:48:03 AM »
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  • I was a Protestant for a few years in my youth and seeing the foolishness of Sola Scriptura was a key step in my process of becoming Catholic.  They themselves constantly prove how wrong it is by their own actions.

    I think this is why I am so troubled by seeing flat earthers interpreting Scripture contrary to Church teaching.  Because of my experience, I have really strong feelings about the Church having the sole authority to interpret Scripture.
    I believe in the flat earth God created because I am Catholic.
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."


    Offline cassini

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #20 on: January 01, 2018, 08:40:14 AM »
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  • Pardon my French but what the h*#! is theistic evolution?
    Nevermind.


    Theistic evolution is when God jumps in every time evolution becomes a joke and gets evolution over that hurdle.

    Let us now ask what stages of any creature evolved first from that cell? Can one essential part of a living creature exist without the other? What keeps the evolving bits alive? Was it the heart, the head, the stomach, the hips, the legs, or what? Which system evolved first, bit by bit, the circulatory system, the digestive system, the endocrine system, the respiratory system, the nervous system, the immune system, the lymphatic system, the muscular system, the skeletal system, the urinary system, the reproductive system or the brain? Could any creature function with an evolving endocrine system, an evolving digestive system, evolving senses etc.? The answer is no and to argue otherwise is to exit human intelligence.

    After Pius XII Humani Generis Catholics could say, yes, God could sustain creatures for a million years with little bits of each part that work only if all are complete. Zombie land then becomes Catholic and we all live happy ever after with Faith and Science friends again after those absurd creationists who, as Pope Francis said, think God is a magician who can create things whole and working with one wave of His wand.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #21 on: January 01, 2018, 08:43:23 AM »
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  • I believe in the flat earth God created because I am Catholic.
    The Church does not teach that the earth is flat.  The Church does not teach to interpret Scripture the way you interpret it.  Believing in a flat earth has nothing to do with being Catholic and the vast majority of Catholics believe the earth is a globe.  This has been the situation for hundreds of years.
    So no, you do not believe in a flat earth because you are Catholic.  There is some other reason.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #22 on: January 01, 2018, 08:49:14 AM »
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  • Theistic evolution is when God jumps in every time evolution becomes a joke and gets evolution over that hurdle.
    I actually think that is a pretty reasonable way to explain it.  The evolution proposed by atheists has many problems with it.  If, however, one understands evolution as something controlled and used by God, that resolves most, if not all, of the problems.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #23 on: January 01, 2018, 10:37:18 AM »
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  • The evolution proposed by atheists has many problems with it.  If, however, one understands evolution as something controlled and used by God, that resolves most, if not all, of the problems.

    No, theistic evolution has just as many problems.  God has absolutely no need to draw one material form from another.  Evolution is based on the observation of the similarities between different forms of life.  But if you acknowledge a common DESIGNER, then the common design is explained that way ... not by any need to draw one form from another.  Often intertwined with theistic evolution is a kind of deism.

    Evolution, even theistic, is contrary to Sacred Scripture.  God clearly created Adam from the mud of the earth (i.e. directly from matter) AFTER the other animals had been created.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #24 on: January 01, 2018, 10:52:45 AM »
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  • Theistic evolution is when God jumps in every time evolution becomes a joke and gets evolution over that hurdle.

    Let us now ask what stages of any creature evolved first from that cell? Can one essential part of a living creature exist without the other? What keeps the evolving bits alive? Was it the heart, the head, the stomach, the hips, the legs, or what? Which system evolved first, bit by bit, the circulatory system, the digestive system, the endocrine system, the respiratory system, the nervous system, the immune system, the lymphatic system, the muscular system, the skeletal system, the urinary system, the reproductive system or the brain? Could any creature function with an evolving endocrine system, an evolving digestive system, evolving senses etc.? The answer is no and to argue otherwise is to exit human intelligence.

    After Pius XII Humani Generis Catholics could say, yes, God could sustain creatures for a million years with little bits of each part that work only if all are complete. Zombie land then becomes Catholic and we all live happy ever after with Faith and Science friends again after those absurd creationists who, as Pope Francis said, think God is a magician who can create things whole and working with one wave of His wand.
    Agreed.
    Jaynek has exited human intelligence. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #25 on: January 01, 2018, 11:13:37 AM »
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  • Proof for theistic evolution?  None.  You take it as a matter of faith because you have been brainwashed by secular evolutionary thinking and have imbibed their spirit.

    Evolution is predicated on the idea that since there are common design elements among different forms of life they must all have a common origin and that one form of life must derive from the other.  In that reasoning there's an implicit denial of the existence of a Common Designer, whose existence alone suffices to explain the similarities among living organisms.

    And it's clear and obvious from Sacred Scripture that God did not draw human beings from other animals but directly from matter itself.

    Pius XII did tremendous harm to the faith by opening the door to this crap.

    PS -- I'm speaking of course about macro-evolution.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #26 on: January 01, 2018, 11:16:46 AM »
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  • Genesis II.7

    Quote
    And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth:

    ie., directly from matter.  God did NOT form man from an ape.  There's simply no metaphorical way around this.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #27 on: January 01, 2018, 11:34:54 AM »
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  • I actually think that is a pretty reasonable way to explain it.  The evolution proposed by atheists has many problems with it.  If, however, one understands evolution as something controlled and used by God, that resolves most, if not all, of the problems.

    'Reasonable' Jaynek, you have got to be kidding. Do you know what you say? Not even God could arrange an evolution of stardust to a living creature. It is all together or it cannot be. It is like saying God can create a square circle.

    And here I was thinking you were actually out to find the truth of Catholicism. Alas you are so unaware of the Church's traditional teachings that I see no future in informing you, teachings like

    'All that exists outside of God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God.' (De fide)

    'In its whole substance,' not bit by bit.

    Here is someone more to your way of thinking.



    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #28 on: January 01, 2018, 11:40:50 AM »
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  • Genesis II.7

    ie., directly from matter.  God did NOT form man from an ape.  There's simply no metaphorical way around this.
    That's what I said, but she does not think Bible is literal.
    Jaynek is lacking in virtue, specifically the virtue of faith, which is what gives one the power to accept the truths which God revealed in the Bible.
    The Church created the codex of forbidden books to help the people protect their faith. If you have imbibed the pollution of those forbidden books (she has) you lose the power to accept the truths of the Bible tjat may seem mysterious or hard to understand. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Church teaching means by "literal sense of Scripture"
    « Reply #29 on: January 01, 2018, 12:01:11 PM »
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  • That's what I said, but she does not think Bible is literal.

    I didn't see your post, but I agree with you completely on this point.

    This passage is a terrific illustration of what I've been talking about.  It says "slime of the earth".  Well, what is that?  Literal "slime"?  What is "slime" anyway?  Well, then, what's the Hebrew world being translated here to "slime"?  Does it mean some kind of mud?  I see "slime of the earth" as a metaphorical expression for "raw matter" or "raw material".  Hebrew lacked a technical scientific term for "raw matter" and so used a figurative expression "slime of the earth" in lieu of a technical term.  In any case, in no way can an "ape" be considered "slime of the earth".  So Sacred Scripture rules out that interpretation.