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Author Topic: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?  (Read 12431 times)

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Offline cassini

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Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
« on: February 27, 2025, 07:10:57 AM »
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  • There are 8,000 books, ten times more articles, and 30 million websites all asserting the 1616 decree against heliocentrism was not an infallible act so can be ignored. First, here is what Pope Pius VII (reign 1800-1825) ordered in 1820 after Fr Anfossi argued the 1616 decree was irreversible:

    ‘Their Eminences have decreed that, for the time being, now and in future, a license is not to be refused to the Masters of the Sacred Apostolic Palace for the printing and publication of works dealing with the mobility of the Earth and the immobility of the sun according to the common opinion of modern astronomers, on the basis of the decrees of the Sacred Congregation of the Index of 1758 and of this Supreme Holy Office of 1820.’

    Here is how Vatican II put it:

    ‘The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are. We cannot but deplore certain attitudes (not unknown among Christians) deriving from a short-sighted view of the rightful autonomy of science; they have occasioned conflict and controversy and have misled many into opposing faith and science.’--- Gaudium et spes, # 36.

    So, we see then, for over 200 years, churchmen have been saying Galileo's heresy was never a heresy, but the truth for Catholics and how the Bible should be read. Sure its no wonder the Catholic Church has been ridiculed since in so many ways. By 1879, Robert Ingersoll, nicknamed the great Agnostic, could write the following:

    ‘The scientific Christians now admit that the bible is not inspired in its astronomy, geology, botany, zoology, or in any science. In other words, they admit that on these subjects, the bible cannot be depended upon… If the people of Europe had known as much of astronomy and geology when the Bible was introduced among them, as they do now, there never could have been one believer in the doctrine of inspiration. If the writers of the various parts of the Bible had known as much about the sciences as now known by every intelligent man, the Bible never could have been written. It was produced in ignorance and has been believed and defended by its author. It has lost power in the proportion that man has gained knowledge. A few years ago, this Bible was appealed to in the settlement of all scientific questions [of origins]; but now, even the clergy confess that in such matters, it has ceased to speak with the voice of authority. For the establishment of facts, the word of man is now considered far better than the word of God. In the world of science, Jehovah was superseded by Copernicus, Galileo [Lyell, Kant, Descartes, Darwin and Fr Lemaître]. All that, God told Moses, admitting the entire account to be true, is dust and ashes compared to their scientific discoveries. In matters of fact, the Bible has ceased to be regarded as a standard. Science has succeeded in breaking the chains of theology. Some years ago, Science attempted to show that it was not inconsistent with Scripture. Now, Religion is endeavouring to prove that the Bible is not inconsistent with science. The standard has been changed.’--- Robert G. Ingersoll: Some Mistakes of Moses, 1879.

    In 1841, the Italian mathematician Guglielmo Libri (1803-1869), wrote as follows:


    ‘Scholastic philosophy was unable to ever recover from the blows Galileo gave to it, and the Church, which unfortunately became the instrument of the Peripatetics’ hatred, shared their defeat. In fact, how can one dare claim infallibility after declaring “false, absurd, heretical, and contrary to Scripture” a fundamental truth of natural philosophy, a fact that is incontestable and now admitted by all scholars? The persecution of Galileo was odious and cruel, more odious and crueller than if the victim had been made to perish during torture…. This ill-fated vengeance, which Galileo had to endure for such time, had the aim of silencing him; it frightened his successors and retarded the progress of natural philosophy [the then name for science], it deprived humanity of the new truths which his sublime mind might have discovered. To restrain genius; to frighten thinkers; to hinder the progress of philosophy, that is what Galileo’s persecutors tried to do. It is a stain which they will never wash away.’--- Guglielmo Libri: Journal des Savants, 1841.

    Years later, just like the agnostic Ingersoll, modern churchmen are now openly repeating a similar opinion to what the ‘great agnostic’ had written.


    ‘The Society of Saint Pius X holds no such position. The Church’s magisterium teaches that Catholics should not use Sacred Scripture to assert explanations about natural science, but may in good conscience hold to any particular cosmic theory. Providentissimus Deus also states that Scripture does not give scientific explanations and many of its texts use “figurative language” or expressions “commonly used at the time”, still used today “even by the most eminent men of science” (like the word “sunrise”)’--- SSPX press release, 30/8/2011.

    ‘Does the Bible want us to read it like a science textbook using scientific language? Or is it meant to be read in another way? The answer is obvious from the very beginning of the Bible; which presents serious challenges for anyone seeking to find properly scientific information about the formation of the world, at least anyone possessing today’s extensive knowledge of the universe’s true architecture.’---Fr Paul Robinson SSPX: A Realist Guide to Religion and Science, Gracewing, 2018, p.247-8

    ‘For over three and a half centuries, the trial of Galileo has been an anti-Catholic bludgeon wielded to show the Church as the enemy of enlightenment, freedom of thought and scientific advancement. In the cultural wars of our own day, Galileo has become an all-encompassing trump-card, played whenever the discussion is about science, abortion, gαy rights, legalized pornography, or simply as a legitimate reason for blatant anti-Catholicism.’--- Robert Lockwood: The Galileo Affair, Position Papers, May 2001.

    All the above was based on the illusion that heliocentrism was proven by Isaac Newton, Stellar Aberration, Stellar Parallax and Leon Foucault’s pendulum.

    So, was the 1616 decree an infallible act or were all the Church Fathers, the Council of Trent, and the popes in the 17th century wrong in their teaching. That will come next. First ponder on the above.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #1 on: February 27, 2025, 12:19:47 PM »
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  • We see above then, that it was the 1741-1835 change from Biblical geocentrism to Biblical heliocentrism by POPES THEMSELVES that began MODERNISM in the Catholic Church.

    ‘Satan uniquely entered the Catholic Church at some point over the last century, or even before. For over a century, the organizers of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, Liberalism, and Modernism infiltrated the Catholic Church in order to change her doctrine, her liturgy and her mission from something supernatural to something secular.’--- (Taylor Marshall, LifeSiteNews, October 4, 2019.)

    Absolutely correct. The Catholic Doctrine on Creation was a supernatural act.
    ‘God…Creator of all visible and invisible things, of the spiritual and of the corporal; who by His own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time created each creature from nothing, spiritual and corporal, namely, angelic and mundane, and finally the human, both of the spirit and the body.’ (Lateran Council IV, 1215).

    ‘All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God. (De fide.) (Vatican Council I, 1870)

    ‘I believe in one God, the Father almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth,
    and of all things visible and invisible.’-- Nicene Creed

    Day 7: So the heavens and the Earth were finished, and all the furniture of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done.--- The Book of Genesis.

    St Thomas Aquinas wrote:
    ‘That the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science. And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent, so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.’--- St. Thomas Aquinas, (Summa theologiae I.46.2)

    By 1820, when Pope Pius VII was conned into finally allowing a change from the supernatural geocentrism of the senses and Biblical revelation to a by then evolved Solar-system heliocentrism, he began a series of changes to the Church's doctrine, her liturgy and her mission from something supernatural to something secular.’


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #2 on: February 27, 2025, 12:44:13 PM »
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  • The heaven is My throne, and the Earth a footstool for My feet.
    What house will you build Me says the Lord,
    or what shall be the place of My resting?’ (Acts 7:49)

    Here above, in Holy Scripture, we find the Lord God, using the analogy of the fixed Earth of the Holy Bible as His footstool, asking what kind of Church will mankind build Him, the place of his resting on Earth. So, two-thousand years later, let us recall what happened, and see where His ‘footstool’ is today.

    ‘In 1609, Galileo looked through a telescope at the moon. It was a moment of such significance for the world that it has been compared to the birth of Christ, for, as at Bethlehem, it was a moment when the impossible entered human affairs.’--Brian Appleyard: Understanding the Present, Doubleday, 1992.


    ‘He has changed our view of the world and our place within it. But in the end, Galileo, a believer in God to the end of his days, also changed the Catholic Church itself. In 1992, the Vatican admitted those who had judged Galileo were wrong to assert the literal truth of the Scriptures.’--- Channel 4 TV’s Galileo’s Daughter, Dec. 2003.

    To emerge from history with a reputation that can, in any way, be compared to the birth of our Lord God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, as Appleyard writes above, must show you the impact the Galileo case has had on human perception. Note then in our second quotation he is named as having changed ‘the Catholic Church itself,’ a reformation few are even aware of. In Jan. 2025, EWTN Channel, in a Catholic religious programme for children, they showed a picture of God the Father holding a spinning Earth on His back. Such portrayals ensure the heresy of heliocentrism within the Church is passed on from one generation to the next. So, thanks to Modernisn brought upon the Church since 1820 at least, with not one pope aware his predecessors began the changes in Scripture as 'science ' demanded. Now when you change the supernatural Creation for a natural secular version of origins that didn't need a Creator, you compromise the religion you are supposed to be protecting, a compromise that led to millions abandoning the supernatural altogether, as well as leading the Catholic Church into modernism.

    History now records that this modern depiction of Creation has led to the demise in supernatural believe in Catholicism itself. In 1969, Vatican II, the Council that completed the Galilean reformation with its Gaudium et Spes no 36, created a new modern Church, with a new modern Mass, one that never served its purpose or function, i.e., to recognise and unburden our sins in the presence of the unbloody sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary by the priest acting as an alter-Christus. Churches were cleared of their altar-rails, altars were replaced with tables, allowing all sorts of shenanigans be performed around the priest saying the Mass. Tabernacles were removed in many churches from the centre of the altars just as the Earth was removed from the centre of the universe. From its beginning, history records both clergy and flock left these Masses in their droves. It was like the supernatural element of the Mass was lost, just as the supernatural element of Creation has been discarded over the centuries. Today, 2025, the Catholic Church’s reputation is now in shreds. Its influence on world affairs is long gone, with traditional teachings, doctrines and catechesis abandoned, rejected, altered or ignored. Many cathedrals and churches no longer have priests to offer Mass and sacraments in them so now function as museums, with other churches and chapels closed or near empty; the Church’s liturgy is now cleared of all that may offend other religions and none, its sacraments revised, altered and devalued, its traditional devotions abandoned, its miracles and sainthood diminished with Vatican II popes and others being canonised in a streamlined process to try to portray these modern times as the holiest in the history of Catholicism. Few seminaries and convents remain because of the dearth of vocations to their uninspiring ‘newchurch.’ What’s left of religious life has been further decimated by worldwide scandals involving members of the clergy. Catholicism today is now under the papacy of Pope Francis, one of the most controversial modernist pope in the history of the Church, a pope who instructed the Bishops of the world to get rid of the Traditional Mass attended by millions of Catholics since Vatican II.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #3 on: February 27, 2025, 12:48:59 PM »
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  • As a consequence of the U-turn on Biblical geocentrism, it became crucial for Catholics to begin an endless portrayal of the Galileo affair, and the 1616 decree, in books and articles in Catholic publications and elsewhere, not as a papal act, but as a reformable one, merely a temporary disciplinary ban on heliocentrism by a few theologians of the Inquisition until proof was found.

    ‘Galileo’s aggressiveness at a sensitive time about a delicate issue, combined with his lack of scientific proof, drew down upon him a condemnation of the Church. That condemnation admittedly went too far, but in no way did it involve the Church’s infallibility or make geocentrism a dogma of Catholic belief.’ (Reference given was Arthur Koestler’s, The Sleepwalkers) --- Fr Paul Robinson SSPX: The Realist Guide to Religion and Science, Gracewing, 2018, p.284.

    The reason for this of course, is because if it was admitted as an unrevisable (infallible) papal decree that was proven false, it could be said to have falsified the Catholic dogma of infallibility itself, and put every official definition of faith and morals at risk. From 1820 on then, it was crucial for churchmen to reject the 1616 decrees as an authoritative papal teaching. So then, was heliocentrism infallibly condemned, and what are the conditions for infallibility according to the Dogma of Infallibility of Vatican Council I? They are, a pope must use his supreme authority (1), when ruling on a matter of faith or morals (2), and, the definition must apply to the whole flock (3).

    In 1542, in the wake of the Protestant rebellion, Pope Paul III (1534-1549) set up the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Inquisition, otherwise known as the Holy Office, to combat heresy at the highest level. Later, in 1588; Pope Sixtus V (1585-90) gave the Holy Office even more explicit powers in the Bull Immensa Dei. In this directive he made the reigning pope Prefect of the Supreme Congregation. This meant that decisions assigned to the Holy Office judgment, before publication, would invariably be examined and ratified by the Pope himself as supreme judge of the Holy See, and would go forward clothed with such formal papal authority. Thus, Pope Paul V, in 1616, as Prefect of the Holy Office, ordered the decree defining a fixed-sun heretical be made binding on all by placing the ban on the Index as well as books promoting the heresy, thus complying to infallibility conditions (1) and (3). Moreover, Pope Alexander VII approved with Apostolic authority the 1616 and 1620 decrees that defined heliocentrism as formal heresy. As regards it being a matter of faith, well in his 1615 Letter to Foscarini, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine clarified that it was a matter of faith.

    ‘Nor may it be answered that this [Biblical moving-sun] is not a matter of faith, for if it is not a matter of faith from the point of view of the subject matter (ex parte objecti), it is a matter of faith on the part of the ones who have spoken (ex parte dicentis). It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the prophets and apostles.’---Cardinal Bellarmine: 1615.

    Indeed, the same instruction must surely apply to everything contained in the Bible, including the history and years revealed in Genesis. Given the Church of 1616 and 1633 approved the above matter of faith, it should have been defended in 1820 based on the arguments offered by the Vatican censor Fr Anfossi. So serious did Pope Urban VIII view this heresy in 1633 that he personally directed Galileo’s trial. The recorded docuмents of the trial, again clearly confirmed the 1616 decree was irreversible when declaring: ‘since an opinion can in no manner be probable which has been declared, and defined to be, contrary to the divine Scripture.’ Here then, is another confirmation that the heresy was irreformable. There remained however, one more condition for the anti-heliocentric decree’s ‘irreversibility,’ it must be made binding on all. Well, apart from the fact that when a pope defines a heresy, it applies to all the flock as one has never heard of a heresy applying to an individual but not to anyone else. In the Galileo case however, such was the serious danger of this heresy that in the summer of 1633, all papal nuncios in Europe and local inquisitors in Italy received from the Roman Inquisition copies of the sentence against Galileo and his abjuration, together with orders to publicise them among as many of the flock as possible.

    “To your vicars, that you and all professors of philosophy and mathematics may have knowledge of [the heliocentric heresy], that they may know why we proceeded against the said Galileo, and recognise the gravity of the error in order that they may avoid it, and thus not incur the penalties which they would have to suffer if they fell into the same [heresy].”’--- Fr Roberts, The Pontifical Decrees against the Earth’s Movement, London, 1870, revised 1885.

    Theologians were then urged to use their learning to show Galileoism as a serious heresy to the flock. Accordingly, many professors of philosophy, mathematics, physics, and astronomy were assembled like their students at roll call and the trial docuмents read to them. History records ‘that the University of Douay in France was so opposed to this fanatical heliocentric opinion that they always held that it must be banished from the schools.’

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #4 on: February 27, 2025, 12:58:04 PM »
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  • If it had been an infallible act, then no pope could have allowed heliocentric books to be published without permitting heresy. He would have become a heretic himself, and arguably the Church would have defected


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #5 on: February 27, 2025, 01:10:54 PM »
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  • There are 8,000 books, ten times more articles, and 30 million websites all asserting the 1616 decree against heliocentrism was not an infallible act so can be ignored. First, here is what Pope Pius VII (reign 1800-1825) ordered in 1820 after Fr Anfossi argued the 1616 decree was irreversible:

    ‘Their Eminences have decreed that, for the time being, now and in future, a license is not to be refused to the Masters of the Sacred Apostolic Palace for the printing and publication of works dealing with the mobility of the Earth and the immobility of the sun according to the common opinion of modern astronomers, on the basis of the decrees of the Sacred Congregation of the Index of 1758 and of this Supreme Holy Office of 1820.’

    Here is how Vatican II put it:

    ‘The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are. We cannot but deplore certain attitudes (not unknown among Christians) deriving from a short-sighted view of the rightful autonomy of science; they have occasioned conflict and controversy and have misled many into opposing faith and science.’--- Gaudium et spes, # 36.

    So, we see then, for over 200 years, churchmen have been saying Galileo's heresy was never a heresy, but the truth for Catholics and how the Bible should be read. Sure its no wonder the Catholic Church has been ridiculed since in so many ways. By 1879, Robert Ingersoll, nicknamed the great Agnostic, could write the following:

    ‘The scientific Christians now admit that the bible is not inspired in its astronomy, geology, botany, zoology, or in any science. In other words, they admit that on these subjects, the bible cannot be depended upon… If the people of Europe had known as much of astronomy and geology when the Bible was introduced among them, as they do now, there never could have been one believer in the doctrine of inspiration. If the writers of the various parts of the Bible had known as much about the sciences as now known by every intelligent man, the Bible never could have been written. It was produced in ignorance and has been believed and defended by its author. It has lost power in the proportion that man has gained knowledge. A few years ago, this Bible was appealed to in the settlement of all scientific questions [of origins]; but now, even the clergy confess that in such matters, it has ceased to speak with the voice of authority. For the establishment of facts, the word of man is now considered far better than the word of God. In the world of science, Jehovah was superseded by Copernicus, Galileo [Lyell, Kant, Descartes, Darwin and Fr Lemaître]. All that, God told Moses, admitting the entire account to be true, is dust and ashes compared to their scientific discoveries. In matters of fact, the Bible has ceased to be regarded as a standard. Science has succeeded in breaking the chains of theology. Some years ago, Science attempted to show that it was not inconsistent with Scripture. Now, Religion is endeavouring to prove that the Bible is not inconsistent with science. The standard has been changed.’--- Robert G. Ingersoll: Some Mistakes of Moses, 1879.

    In 1841, the Italian mathematician Guglielmo Libri (1803-1869), wrote as follows:


    ‘Scholastic philosophy was unable to ever recover from the blows Galileo gave to it, and the Church, which unfortunately became the instrument of the Peripatetics’ hatred, shared their defeat. In fact, how can one dare claim infallibility after declaring “false, absurd, heretical, and contrary to Scripture” a fundamental truth of natural philosophy, a fact that is incontestable and now admitted by all scholars? The persecution of Galileo was odious and cruel, more odious and crueller than if the victim had been made to perish during torture…. This ill-fated vengeance, which Galileo had to endure for such time, had the aim of silencing him; it frightened his successors and retarded the progress of natural philosophy [the then name for science], it deprived humanity of the new truths which his sublime mind might have discovered. To restrain genius; to frighten thinkers; to hinder the progress of philosophy, that is what Galileo’s persecutors tried to do. It is a stain which they will never wash away.’--- Guglielmo Libri: Journal des Savants, 1841.

    Years later, just like the agnostic Ingersoll, modern churchmen are now openly repeating a similar opinion to what the ‘great agnostic’ had written.


    ‘The Society of Saint Pius X holds no such position. The Church’s magisterium teaches that Catholics should not use Sacred Scripture to assert explanations about natural science, but may in good conscience hold to any particular cosmic theory. Providentissimus Deus also states that Scripture does not give scientific explanations and many of its texts use “figurative language” or expressions “commonly used at the time”, still used today “even by the most eminent men of science” (like the word “sunrise”)’--- SSPX press release, 30/8/2011.

    ‘Does the Bible want us to read it like a science textbook using scientific language? Or is it meant to be read in another way? The answer is obvious from the very beginning of the Bible; which presents serious challenges for anyone seeking to find properly scientific information about the formation of the world, at least anyone possessing today’s extensive knowledge of the universe’s true architecture.’---Fr Paul Robinson SSPX: A Realist Guide to Religion and Science, Gracewing, 2018, p.247-8

    ‘For over three and a half centuries, the trial of Galileo has been an anti-Catholic bludgeon wielded to show the Church as the enemy of enlightenment, freedom of thought and scientific advancement. In the cultural wars of our own day, Galileo has become an all-encompassing trump-card, played whenever the discussion is about science, abortion, gαy rights, legalized pornography, or simply as a legitimate reason for blatant anti-Catholicism.’--- Robert Lockwood: The Galileo Affair, Position Papers, May 2001.

    All the above was based on the illusion that heliocentrism was proven by Isaac Newton, Stellar Aberration, Stellar Parallax and Leon Foucault’s pendulum.

    So, was the 1616 decree an infallible act or were all the Church Fathers, the Council of Trent, and the popes in the 17th century wrong in their teaching. That will come next. First ponder on the above.


    No doubt there are far more books and articles suggesting the 1616 decrees weren't infallible, but that conclusion is not infallible and although much parroted, is provably false.  Such assumptions come from misinformation, subtle coercion and those people subject to scientism "authorities" throughout the centuries. Still, these assumptions are proven false when the actual docuмents and the statements by the popes reveal.

    People forget that the Catholic Church burned Cecco at the stake because the heliocentric
    (Pythagorean) cosmological model promoted was based in astrology.

       

       



    With this event in mind, we can understand better why this is the conclusion drawn during the Galileo Affair centuries later.



    So, it is quite clear that the Pythagorean/heliocentric model was banned because the entire paradigm was perverse and opposed to Scripture.




    It makes no sense for any Catholic or Christian to maintain that earth is a globe after the Pythagorean Doctrine in which it is found was declared "by authority of the Pontiff" in the summary of the Galileo trial as, "False", "opposed to Scripture", "slithering perniciously into Catholic truth", "repugnant to sacred Scripture", "minimally tolerated in a Christian man", and "totally prohibited." 

    What can be gained in attempting to resurrect a demonic philosophy or even a portion of a demonic philosophy that was condemned by the Church?

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #6 on: February 27, 2025, 01:20:15 PM »
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  • If it had been an infallible act, then no pope could have allowed heliocentric books to be published without permitting heresy. He would have become a heretic himself, and arguably the Church would have defected
    The movement to allow heliocentric books to be published took centuries to accomplish as society and Church enemies pushed back on the authority of the Church to ban books. The Church backed off for various reasons unrelated to the heliocentrism issue, but when they backed off from banning books, heliocentrism was able to thrive and people began to ignore and even repudiate the Index's moral authority.  However, Cardinal Ratzinger affirmed that the Index maintains it's moral force (for Catholics).



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #7 on: February 27, 2025, 02:14:01 PM »
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  • If it had been an infallible act, then no pope could have allowed heliocentric books to be published without permitting heresy. He would have become a heretic himself, and arguably the Church would have defected

    So, you see, this here has been the dark side of sedevacantism, where in order to combat the errors of R&R on the other extreme, you exaggerate papal infallibility and claim that any kind of error ... here even not a positive error but merely a failure to condemn or failure to enforce would somehow entail a defection of the Church.  Many of you SVs (the Dimond Brothers being a refreshing exception) think that the Pope is infallible every time he passes wind, or in this case in his failure to pass wind, exaggerating the scope of infallibility to an extent the NO THEOLOGIAN after Vatican I and before Vatican II every held, setting up the exaggerated strawman that various anti-Catholics always like to attack.  We need a more balanced view of papal infallibility, such as articulated by Msgr. Fenton in his treatise on the "Authority of Papal Encyclicals", which properly navigates the extremes of R&R and those of the SVs.

    But in this sentence you contradict yourself ... claiming that HAD IT been an infallible act (the condemnation of heliocentrism), implying that it wasn't ... then failing to condemn it later would have constituted a defection of the Church.  So a mere failure to condemn has greater ramifications toward the indefectibility of the Church than a ruling of heresy from the very top of the Church and with papal approbation?

    You guys keep beating us over the head with "Suprema Fake" (that wasn't ever even published in AAS and is of dubious authenticity), but then just blow off something like this ruling on geo-/helio- centrism as if it didn't exist because "not infallible".  Do you even realize the contradiction?  Why do you exaggerate the authority of one "Suprema Fake" while blowing off the other one (condemnation of heliocentrism as heresy) as if it's meaningless because you decided it was wrong and don't like it?

    Did the Church defect when Pius XII failed to condemn evolution?

    This is just a nonsensical can of worms and a ball of contradiction left and right.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #8 on: February 27, 2025, 02:21:12 PM »
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  • The Church backed off for various reasons unrelated to the heliocentrism issue, but when they backed off from banning books, heliocentrism was able to thrive and people began to ignore and even repudiate the Index's moral authority. 

    Correct, and the "backing away" from condemnations in no way compromises the Church's infallibility, as Our Lord's promises to the Church never include an infallible condemnation of error possible error that might ever be thought of.  Similarly, the Church also backed down from her condemnation of usury ... for similar reasons.  Now, the Church should have backed down on neither one, but it was precisely for the reasons articulated by Yeti here that she did back down, embarrassment regarding this particular judgment of the Church in their kowtowing to modern science.  So this would "embarrass" the Church as it embarrasses Yeti.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #9 on: February 27, 2025, 02:43:02 PM »
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  • Correct, and the "backing away" from condemnations in no way compromises the Church's infallibility, as Our Lord's promises to the Church never include an infallible condemnation of error possible error that might ever be thought of.  Similarly, the Church also backed down from her condemnation of usury ... for similar reasons.  Now, the Church should have backed down on neither one, but it was precisely for the reasons articulated by Yeti here that she did back down, embarrassment regarding this particular judgment of the Church in their kowtowing to modern science.  So this would "embarrass" the Church as it embarrasses Yeti.

    Exactly. Backing off from monitoring the world's books in no way compromises the Church's infallibility because She did not back down from condemning the false cosmology opposed to Scripture. The moral force of the Index on the subject also remains intact. The Church condemned Pythagoreanism (heliocentrism/Copernicanism), but apparently, a lot of people just feel the need to pontificate about the Church's position when they don't know the facts. 

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #10 on: February 27, 2025, 02:47:22 PM »
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  • If it had been an infallible act, then no pope could have allowed heliocentric books to be published without permitting heresy. He would have become a heretic himself, and arguably the Church would have defected

    See, I told you the reaction one gets when the  truth comes out. Here is what I posted earlier:

    ‘Are you saying that popes since 1820 are heretics?’ Our answer to this is, ‘It was the Church itself who defined and declared anyone who accepts heliocentrism is guilty of heresy.’ That said, we also recognise that those Catholics, including ourselves in the past, who, having been taught these things throughout our ‘education’ in school and university, Catholic or not, accepted heliocentrism, natural evolution and the possibility of aliens based on a belief these things were proven by science. So such personal heresies, as ruled by the Catholic Church, are ‘material,’ involving innumerable Catholics as we know. The Catholic Church makes a distinction between material and formal heresy. Material heresy means in effect ‘holding erroneous doctrines through no fault of their own’ due to inculpable ignorance. In this case because they believe the subject matter of Scripture as meaning a fixed-sun has been proven true by science, so ‘is neither a crime nor a sin’ since the individual made the error in good faith. But now that the truth has been explained to them, and Biblical heliocentrism is still promoted, that heresy can no longer be considered material but formal.

    So, material heresy does not mean the Church defected. 

    More evidence of infallibility lies in the ruling of 1616, that geocentrism was expounded and understood by all the Fathers, an irreversible revelation confirmed earlier by the Council of Trent, and again in the three future encyclicals on Scripture by Pope Leo XIII, Pope Benedict XV and Pope Pius XII. Undoubtedly the definitive confirmation of infallibility is to be found in the Church’s own docuмents recording the details of the 1820 U-turn, records, needless to say, that were put away in the Vatican archives that few ever read until years later. In these records, Friar Olivieri, Commissary General of the 1820 Inquisition, admitted in his reasons for a change in meaning, that the 1616 decree was papal and unrevisable, a confirmation fully accepted by Pope Pius VII.


    Olivieri: ‘In his “motives” the Reverend Anfossi puts forth “the unrevisability of  pontifical decrees.” But we have already proved that this is saved: the doctrine in question at the time [1616] was infected with a devastating motion, which is certainly contrary to the Sacred Scriptures, as it was declared.’---Vatican Archives.

    There it is then, the Holy Office of Pius VII itself confirming the 1616 decree was an unrevisable papal decree, that is, an infallible decree in accordance with its definition as ruled at Vatican I. 

    Nowhere in any book will you find this admission of infallibility docuмented for obvious reasons. Because of the infallibility of the 1616 decree Fr Olivieri had to conjure up the idea that there were two versions of the heresy, an infallible one and a non infallible one. It was an earlier philosopher who rejected heliocentrism because if the Earth moved around the sun at 67,000mph it would cause winds on the earth that would be devastating. So, because Olivieri thought heliocentrism was proven, he conjured up the ploy in order to have his infallible decree and his non-heretical heliocentrism. Pope Pius VII went along with this as history records.

    In truth, not once in the history of the Church was a violent heliocentrism mentioned let alone made the heresy. The heresy of a fixed-sun had been condemned first by the Early Church. Can you imagine it. A formal heresy abandoned from the Church by way of deceit and under the illusion heliocentrism was proven. Once this heresy got into the womb of the Church other heresies like evolution and aliens followed into the Church. No wonder Pope Urban VIII said in 1633 that if the heliocentric heresy was allowed by the Church it would put the supernatural Catholic faith in danger.

    ‘What we see therefore, is not ultimately a problem in the rational natural order. It is ultimately a problem in the supernatural order, when churchmen since 1820 lost their faith through the art of temptation and deception. They were tempted to believe in another kind of revelation, that which comes through demons. In this they are no different than Adam and Eve. They began to believe the report of ‘science’ on its own authority. They gave human reason a higher degree of credibility than Divine Revelation.’ 


    ‘Our present book traces the development of ancient Pythagorean beliefs about religion, astronomy and their interconnection, explaining how early Christian Church Fathers condemned such beliefs…. Saint Hippolytus (150-236AD) of Rome criticised the “alliance between heresy and the Pythagorean philosophy” and he denounced the “enormous and endless heresies” of the “disciples not of Christ, but of Pythagoras.”…I will show how the cult of Pythagoras became notorious for anti-Christian beliefs, polytheism, the transmigration of souls, divination, the plurality and eternity of worlds, and denials of the uniqueness and divinity of Jesus.’--Prof. A. A. Martinez: Pythagoras or Christ, Independent Publishing, 2014.

    Then at Bruno's trial one of his heresies was heliocentrism, condemned again by the Church in 1600. In 1616 the Church ruled it was FORMAL heresy, that is long condemned. It was only when popes fell for the lie that heliocentrtism was proven that they felt they had to do something about it. That is when Olivieri had to invent his violent heresy and a non-violent non heretical heliocentrism.

    See also how Catholics today try to protect those popes who went along with their material heresy in preference to the Church, that is, all the Fathers who held to Biblical geocentrism and those popes who condemned it in 1616, 1633, 1664. The fact that the Church was never proven wrong in its upholding of Biblical geocentrism should cause dancing in the streets of Rome. Instead they try to protect the material heretical popes.




    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #11 on: February 27, 2025, 02:53:16 PM »
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  • ‘Are you saying that popes since 1820 are heretics?’ (Or 1616 or 1327) Our answer to this is, ‘It was the Church itself who defined and declared anyone who accepts heliocentrism is guilty of heresy.’

    THIS

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #12 on: February 27, 2025, 02:57:56 PM »
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  • ‘Are you saying that popes since 1820 are heretics?’ Our answer to this is, ‘It was the Church itself who defined and declared anyone who accepts heliocentrism is guilty of heresy.’

    THIS
    I have a simple solution - 

    the only pope who people claim to have denied geocentrism ( ignoring antipopes Roncali-Berg) is Benedict XV 

    my solution - he was not claiming that the earth moves, but that it might not be in the locational centre, yet everything still revolves around it, he may have even been meaning that “while these people think the earth is not the centre of the universe” without denying himself that it is or he may have been saying “whether of not the earth is the centre of the universe” which wouldn’t have been him denying geocentrism.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #13 on: February 27, 2025, 03:08:55 PM »
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  • I have a simple solution -

    the only pope who people claim to have denied geocentrism ( ignoring antipopes Roncali-Berg) is Benedict XV

    my solution - he was not claiming that the earth moves, but that it might not be in the locational centre, yet everything still revolves around it, he may have even been meaning that “while these people think the earth is not the centre of the universe” without denying himself that it is or he may have been saying “whether of not the earth is the centre of the universe” which wouldn’t have been him denying geocentrism.

    Is the statement by BXV available here?  It would help to review it.  In the meantime, yours is a good assessment, the kind of discernment that respects Church teaching while explaining various authoritative statements that appear to contradict Her.  

    Just for reference, the fact that the Fathers of the Church teach that the Earth is at the center of the universe merely expresses theologically expressed metaphysical truth. The flat geocentric Earth Scripture describes reveals that heaven is above the Earth, hell is below the Earth, therefore, the Earth is at the center of Creation. This is reasonable and reflects Scripture's descriptions. However, if the Earth is a globe, then hell is at the center of Creation. 

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Was the 1616 decree against heliocentrism an infallible act?
    « Reply #14 on: February 27, 2025, 03:57:25 PM »
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  • Is the statement by BXV available here?  It would help to review it.  In the meantime, yours is a good assessment, the kind of discernment that respects Church teaching while explaining various authoritative statements that appear to contradict Her. 

    Just for reference, the fact that the Fathers of the Church teach that the Earth is at the center of the universe merely expresses theologically expressed metaphysical truth. The flat geocentric Earth Scripture describes reveals that heaven is above the Earth, hell is below the Earth, therefore, the Earth is at the center of Creation. This is reasonable and reflects Scripture's descriptions. However, if the Earth is a globe, then hell is at the center of Creation.
    and though this earth on which we live may not be the centre of the universe as at one time was thought, it was the scene of the original happiness of our first ancestors, witness of their unhappy fall, as too of the Redemption of mankind through the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ.