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Author Topic: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth  (Read 1802 times)

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Offline Cera

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2022, 06:16:38 PM »
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  • Wow, good find. God bless you Cera :pray:
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #2 on: August 11, 2022, 06:25:34 PM »
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  • Thank you DL,
    Here are Scripture quotes from the same site.


    Genesis 1-7 God, at the beginning of time, created heaven and earth.  Earth was still an empty waste, and darkness hung over the deep; but already, over its waters, stirred the breath of God.  Then God said, Let there be light; and the light began.  God saw the light, and found it good, and he divided the light from the darkness;  the light he called Day, and the darkness Night. So evening came, and morning, and one day passed.  God said, too, Let a solid vault arise amid the waters, to keep these waters apart from those;  a vault by which God would separate the waters which were beneath it from the waters above it; ....

    14-18 Next, God said, Let there be luminaries in the vault of the sky, to divide the spheres of day and night; let them give portents, and be the measures of time, to mark out the day and the year; 15 let them shine in the sky’s vault, and shed light on the earth. And so it was done.

    God made the two great luminaries, the greater of them to command the day, and the lesser to command the night; then he made the stars. 17 All these he put in the vault of the sky, to shed their light on the earth, 18 to control day and night, and divide the spheres of light and darkness. And God saw it, and found it good.


    Psalm 104:5 The earth thou hast planted on its own firm base, undisturbed for all time.

    Psalm 93:1 The Lord reigns as king, robed in majesty; royalty the Lord has for robe and girdle. He it was that founded the solid earth, to abide immovable.

    Psalm 148:4 Praise him, you highest heavens, you waters beyond the heavens

    Proverbs 8:25-30 when I was born, the mountains had not yet sunk on their firm foundations, and there were no hills; not yet had he made the earth, or the rivers, or the solid framework of the world. I was there when he built the heavens, when he fenced in the waters with a vault inviolable, when he fixed the sky overhead, and levelled the fountain-springs of the deep. I was there when he enclosed the sea within its confines, forbidding the waters to transgress their assigned limits, when he poised the foundations of the world.

    Isaiah 40:21-22 What ignorance is this? Has no rumour reached you, no tradition from the beginning of time, that you should not understand earth’s origin?  There is One sits so high above its circle, those who live on it seem tiny as locusts; One who has spread out the heavens like gossamer, as he were pitching a tent to dwell in.

    Isaiah 66:1 Thus says the Lord, Heaven is my throne, earth the footstool under my feet

    Matthew 4:8-9 Once more, the devil took him to the top of an exceedingly high mountain, from which he shewed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,  and said, I will give thee all these if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 

    Revelation 7:1 And now I saw four angels, standing at the world’s four corners, and holding back the four winds of the world, so that no wind should blow on land or sea, or upon any of the trees.


    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #3 on: August 11, 2022, 06:29:43 PM »
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  • from the same website: http://flatearthtrads.com/
    The Church Fathers and the Flat Earth

    "They thought that the world is round like a ball, ...consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain
    thing by another" Divine Institutes - Chapter 24
    Lactentius

    “Where are those who say that the heaven is in motion? Where are those who think it is spherical? For both these opinions are here swept away.” Commentary on the Hebrews 8:1
    St. John Chrysostom

    "There are some who assert that this mass is like a point and globe...What, then, will the land be over ...?"" Commentary on Isaiah
    St. Jerome

    For  its  outline  being  spherical,  it  is  necessary,  they  say...Now certainly  the  wretched  ones  were  overwhelmed  in  the  chaos  of  error - Discourse of the Ten Virgins, chapter 8
    St. Methodius
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #4 on: August 11, 2022, 06:53:22 PM »
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  • I personally would have like to see them cite those Church Fathers who did hold the earth to be a sphere.  Let's be objective and look at all the evidence.  I don't care for it when either side of any issue simply ignores any evidence from the other side.  It's OK to reject it for various well-argued reasons, but don't just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #5 on: August 11, 2022, 06:54:39 PM »
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  • I did hear from Edward Hendrie that Pythagoras (inventor of both heliocentrism and of globe earth) got his ideas from the Jєωs in the Babylonian captivity.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #6 on: August 11, 2022, 06:57:55 PM »
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  • I did hear from Edward Hendrie that Pythagoras (inventor of both heliocentrism and of globe earth) got his ideas from the Jєωs in the Babylonian captivity.
    A bit of a tangent, but, what's really interesting is that there's scant evidence to suggest that the real Pythagoras himself even held those ideas. I'm reading Pythagoras or Christ? by A.A. Martinez, and he lays out a really conclusive argument that much of what is attributed to Pythagoras is false and comes from the rumors of various philosophers and Pythagorean followers themselves.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #7 on: August 12, 2022, 03:14:43 PM »
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  • Let's be objective and look at all the evidence.  I don't care for it when either side of any issue simply ignores any evidence from the other side.  It's OK to reject it for various well-argued reasons, but don't just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

    Sounds good!  I would suggest as a good starting point Sungenis' 700 page plus FE book which can be obtained in PDF for only $10.


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #8 on: August 13, 2022, 01:52:18 PM »
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  • Sounds good!  I would suggest as a good starting point Sungenis' 700 page plus FE book which can be obtained in PDF for only $10.
    It's disingenuous to call it a FE book when you know it's an ANTI-FE book. 
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #9 on: August 13, 2022, 02:07:31 PM »
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  • It's disingenuous to call it a FE book when you know it's an ANTI-FE book.

    I think he just meant it as short hand that it's a book about FE.  I don't think anyone would be fooled into buying it thinking it might be pro FE, as the it's right there in the title, "Flat Earth Flat Wrong".  I probably will get it and read it at some point.  I'm only interested in the truth, whatever that might be, so I'm not afraid of looking at both sides of any issue.  My preliminary sense about Dr. Sungenis is that he's philosophically opposed to FE at the outset, which might color his analysis.  I saw a rebuttal about some of what he wrote by Edward Hendrie, and it did look as though Dr. Sungenis was at time ignoring certain aspects of problems that he was addressing.  Nevertheless, I did find Dr. Sungenis' attitude refreshing (in an interview he did about the book), where he treated those of the FE position with respect, did not ridicule them, or dismiss them lightly.  He admitted that there were some very weighty arguments in its favor, and he said that the seriousness of the arguments and evidence required 800 pages to address ... when he felt at the outset it would just be a few pages.  He also rejected some of the facile anti-FE arguments out there, like "if the world is flat, why can't we see Europe across the Ocean from the East Coast of the US."  He admitted that this would not be possible on account of the atmosphere.  I think that's how most people initially approach FE, thinking, "OK, I'll have a look," while fully expecting it to be a bunch of nonsense going in.  Then when they start to look at the issue, they end up a bit surprised.  This is where there's a dividing line.  Some proceed to continue to openly research the subject, while others immediately look for ways to debunk it.  Dr. Sungenis certainly understands what it feels like to be on the opposite side of the ridicule and mockery, as I'm sure he's gotten a great deal of it over his geocentrism.  Nevertheless, he did seem to admit that his intention up front was to debunk and refute FE.  At the same time, many of the most prominent FEs today admit that they initially started investigating the question because they felt it was a psyop to discredit the types of things they did believe in (i.e. that the moon landings were fake, etc.)  But a fair number of them ended up won over and are now among the strongest and most articulate proponents of FE.

    It's not so much about the $10 but about having the time to read an 800+ page book.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #10 on: August 13, 2022, 02:20:50 PM »
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  • What most FEs are annoyed with are the stupid Glober arguments, such as, "here's a picture of a boat that's cut off from the bottom.  HA!  Take that, Flat Earthers."  It's that attitude where they've clearly made up their minds ahead of time and then adduce their evidence as "proof" due to confirmation bias, because they want it to back up their pre-conceived position.  OK, so there's a boat cut off from the bottom.  But then when we have pictures where it's not cut off, you say it's refraction.  What happened to refraction, suddenly?  It disappears in their pictures, but it clearly present in the FE pictures?  They never take readings, measurements, etc.  So, this boat, where is it?, how far is it away from the observer?, what kind of equipment is being used to view it?, did they try to zoom in on it?, what were the atmospheric conditions, the temperature, the humidity, the wave heights of the water?  You NEVER get any analysis like that from the Globers, but nearly always from the FEs.  Or  "Aha, look, this bridge over lake Pontchartrain looks curved in this picture." (where you can see the haze in the picture) but then when someone provides another one where it looks perfectly straight, "That's just refraction."  It's totally dishonest and I have zero patience for that nonsense.  But when I see a refreshing attitude like that of Dr. Sungenis, I will listen with respect to what he has to say.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #11 on: August 13, 2022, 02:31:00 PM »
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  • I did watch the debate between Dr. Sungenis and Rob Skiba about FE.  They were mostly focused on Sacred Scripture, and I felt that Skiba did a much better job of demonstrating why his understanding of the Hebrew text was correct.  He cited various dictionaries of Biblical Hebrew and then showed the word in context, whereas Dr. Sungenis made some unsubstantiated statements that were in fact refuted by Skiba with evidence.  Interestingly, Dr. Sungenis says he never debates with notes, but I think it would have served him well in the debate, as while he was merely making assertions, Skiba was showing evidence from sources.  Dr. Sungenis might have sources for what he was saying, but he didn't cite them, perhaps because he didn't have them committed to memory, and that did not help him during that debate.

    What I did find refreshing in that debate, however, as it was mostly about Sacred Scripture, that unlike 99.9% of all NO Catholics, and probably unlike at least half of Traditional Catholics, Dr. Sungenis took Sacred Scripture very seriously, as the inerrant work of the Holy Spirit, so I think he made a good impression about Catholics with the "born again" Skiba, and the other who are like him, that, yes, Catholics do believe that Sacred Scripture is the inerrant Word of God.  Meanwhile, had Father Paul Robinson been debating Skiba, he would have caused scandal and reinforced the Prot contempt for Catholics, by accusing them of "Biblicism" and taking the Bible literally, and not understanding it for just its "spiritual" sense.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #12 on: August 13, 2022, 03:15:16 PM »
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  • I did watch the debate between Dr. Sungenis and Rob Skiba about FE.  They were mostly focused on Sacred Scripture, and I felt that Skiba did a much better job of demonstrating why his understanding of the Hebrew text was correct.  He cited various dictionaries of Biblical Hebrew and then showed the word in context, whereas Dr. Sungenis made some unsubstantiated statements that were in fact refuted by Skiba with evidence. 
    This is a painful admission no Catholic should have to make. In this debate alone I'd have to agree. The Prot won, not only because he was loyal to the text, but his sources were plentiful, detailed and reasonable. Skiba was unafraid to even entertain the possibility (or certainty in Skiba's case) that earth is flat, a premise from which Sungenis consistently deflects or expresses doubt. I reject the 'doubt' type of argument because I know Catholics who claim they left the faith because of "doubt".  That argument is pure garbage.  It's no longer possible one can call it doubt if they act upon it.  Then it's certainty. Another dive down the rabbit hole would serve Sungenis well because no one will hold it against him for mistaken observations this early on.  As time goes by, he will lose credibility and nobody wants any Catholic to go down against a Prot.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #13 on: August 13, 2022, 03:39:07 PM »
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  • The Prot won, not only because he was loyal to the text, but his sources were plentiful, detailed and reasonable.

    Right.  I think that Dr. Sungenis did also remain respectful and loyal to the text, not dismissing it as a Father Paul Robinson would, but indeed Skiba had the sources to back up what he was saying while Dr. Sungenis did not.  I don't know if it's because he didn't have any (I have to assume that he did) or if it was because he never debates with notes (something he mentioned at the beginning) ... and that simply didn't serve him well.  I do intent to read his book (when I have the time to spare) to see what he's got.

    Offline flatearthtrads

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    Re: Trad Catholic video on church fathers and flat earth
    « Reply #14 on: August 14, 2022, 04:31:57 PM »
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  • Thank you Cera for the compliments. We worked hard on those quotes and video.
    We could not find any quotes from the Fathers favouring the globe. Perhaps Ladislaus can provide them?