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Author Topic: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory  (Read 5193 times)

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Offline cassini

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Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2017, 02:33:07 PM »
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  • The text outlined in blue does not say what the person is posting here.  Cosmas of Indiocopleustes INSISTS that the earth is flat and spends his entire book, Christian Topography proving it.  Also, the fact that it says, " it has become a globe at the centre of the universe." is proof that it was once held otherwise but suddenly changed.  Not only that, it doesn't say "why" it has become a globe.  

    When you think you have proof of something, read further, you've shown nothing.  

    It is a fact yes, most men once thought the earth was flat. Eventually however, they discovered it was a globe.

    Cosmas of Indiocopleustes thought the earth was the shape of a tabernacle, not round but nevertheless with all six sides NOT FLAT. Flat is a pancake.

    I am still trying to understand how the Miraculous medal, described by Our Lady Herself, showing her standing on half a globe can be interpreted as her standing on a flat earth. If she stood on half a globe upside-down so as to be standing on the flat part, then yes, but because she chose to design the medal showing only half the earth, and she standing on the curved half earth, and that is how millions of Catholics have understood it since its inception, then that is the truth.

    Similarly the globe of the Child of Prague. To say, as you did or inferred that it represented a flat earth, just as you said the Miraculous medal represented a global earth, shows me that we really are dealing with people whose faith in a flat earth is beyond reason.

    Andrew White's description of the Doctrine of Geocentrism is probably the best summary of it I have ever read. I know he was an anti-Christ, but his description cannot be faulted.

    Dante held to a globe. The terrestrial globe, for Dante, is constituted by earth and water, and is surrounded by a sphere of air, which in turn is surrounded by a sphere of fire. All spheres.

    The three saints in White's geocentrism all understood the earth is a globe. Then there was St Robert Cardinal Bellarmine. Personally I find no fault is these saints and no amount of silly rejections can make them flat-earthers.


    Offline deutschcath

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 04:34:55 AM »
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  • Mr Cassini,

    The error that the earth is a globe has been around since Pythagoras, the occultist.

    Anytime that the earth is represented as a globe such as with the Infant of prague, it is the sphere of CREATION, not the EARTH. There is a big difference. The picture posted earlier illustrates this.

    The dome is solid as St. Augustine believed. with the earth below it, taking the top half of the sphere of creation, it is as in our lady of the miraculous medal.

    I actually read the quotation you gave above. There is ZERO evidence that there were saints that held the earth to be a ball in it. It is an outright lie to say so, I am sorry to say, but this is the truth. I would have no problem reading a protestant if he produced citations.

    Here are citations from the FATHERS of the CHURCH, included among them St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Jerome.

    http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition

    If you are trying to make out that it was the ignorant plebiscite mass that thought the earth was flat while the educated saintly elite thought it was round (communist dialectic- by the way), then you will not have two feet to stand on.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 01:46:19 PM »
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  • Mr Cassini,

    The error that the earth is a globe has been around since Pythagoras, the occultist.

    Anytime that the earth is represented as a globe such as with the Infant of prague, it is the sphere of CREATION, not the EARTH. There is a big difference. The picture posted earlier illustrates this.

    The dome is solid as St. Augustine believed. with the earth below it, taking the top half of the sphere of creation, it is as in our lady of the miraculous medal.

    I actually read the quotation you gave above. There is ZERO evidence that there were saints that held the earth to be a ball in it. It is an outright lie to say so, I am sorry to say, but this is the truth. I would have no problem reading a protestant if he produced citations.

    Here are citations from the FATHERS of the CHURCH, included among them St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Jerome.

    http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition

    If you are trying to make out that it was the ignorant plebiscite mass that thought the earth was flat while the educated saintly elite thought it was round (communist dialectic- by the way), then you will not have two feet to stand on.

    To describe the ball of the Child of Prague as a sphere of creation, a symbol of a flat-earth, just about illustrates the lengths the flatearthers will go to have their way. Add to that the dome of the earth Our Lady was standing on was really a flat-earth is another bit of theological nonsense.

    As you should know well, only if ALL the Fathers agree on an interpretation of Scripture can it NOT be challenged. The Galileo case, which your referenced site uses as a theological argument for flat-earthism, I reject absolutely. Not once was a flat earth brought up by either the philosophers or theologians in the Galileo affair. All presumed that the earth is a globe at the time, and Pythagorism was only in the context of a moving sun and the earth immobile at the centre of the universe.

    So what if many of the Fathers held to a flat earth, this confirms nothing but that they were wrong.

    Offline deutschcath

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #18 on: July 04, 2017, 04:07:41 AM »
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  • Mr. Cassini,
    "the lengths flat earthers will go to have their way".  you say. I say in response, that it is simply the reality of things. You are coming at it from a modern perspective, with the presumption that are right and have science on your side. Neither are true.

    The Galileo case supports the flat earth in the the aspect of the fact that the earth does not move. And the sun goes around it. You take the what it does not say explicitly (that the earth is a flat disc), and pretend that you can say whatever you like after that. I'm afraid it is not that simple.

    If the majority of the Fathers say something, you should sit up and listen. And not be temerous.

    I do not deny that the globe error was starting to come in from the middle ages, but you will have to produce serious evidence to say that EVERYBODY said it was a globe.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #19 on: July 08, 2017, 05:39:51 AM »
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  • Mr. Cassini,
    "the lengths flat earthers will go to have their way".  you say. I say in response, that it is simply the reality of things. You are coming at it from a modern perspective, with the presumption that are right and have science on your side. Neither are true.

    The Galileo case supports the flat earth in the the aspect of the fact that the earth does not move. And the sun goes around it. You take the what it does not say explicitly (that the earth is a flat disc), and pretend that you can say whatever you like after that. I'm afraid it is not that simple.

    If the majority of the Fathers say something, you should sit up and listen. And not be temerous.

    I do not deny that the globe error was starting to come in from the middle ages, but you will have to produce serious evidence to say that EVERYBODY said it was a globe.

    I think we have all heard of 'Faith and reason' or 'Faith and science (scientia).' Our Catholic faith claims that because it is truth, it will comply with all known and unknown scientia.

    'Scientia' by the way is knowledge. It comprises knowledge acquired through the senses, knowledge acquired through the empirical or inductive method, knowledge acquired through philosophy, the search through reason alone, and finally through theology.
    Unless all four are compatible, or not contradicted in any of the four conditions, then the truth is not present.

    Flat-earthism does not comply with all four conditions of scientia. It denies the empirical science of geodesy, earth measurement on a large scale. This science, which can measure the curvature of the earth, has been practiced since the 17th century and fully accepted as such by both Church and state. Such is the size of the earth that this curvature can only be measured over long distances, thousands of miles. Flat earthers use this fact to argue there is no curvature detectable, using short distance photos for their purpose.

    Flat-earthism denies the evidence of the senses, what we see. Leaving apart the fact that every other body created by God is a globe of some sort, lending reason (philosophy) that our earth is also a globe, with gravity measured and changing according to the different positions on global earth, which would not be the case if the earth is flat, flat-earthism denies the curvatures seen in photographs of the earth taken from space. This denial depends on thousands of people involved in space flight all supposedly conspiring to keep the biggest secret known to man a secret, not one of them breaking ranks to expose the supposed conspiracy. Next they will tell us there are no satellites up there at all.

    Anyway, my point on this thread is that to claim Catholic theology can be in agreement with such denials and asserted frauds is to put Catholic theology in the same class as cօռspιʀαcιҽs or doubts, used to undermine the truth acquired through scientia
    Global earth, on the other hand, is totally in keeping with all four conditions of scientia, no compromises or denials necessary in any of the four conditions, and that includes the globe of the Child of Prague and the Miraculous medal, both images that have been backed up with miracles of different kinds.



    Offline happenby

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #20 on: July 08, 2017, 11:12:45 AM »
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  • To describe the ball of the Child of Prague as a sphere of creation, a symbol of a flat-earth, just about illustrates the lengths the flatearthers will go to have their way. Add to that the dome of the earth Our Lady was standing on was really a flat-earth is another bit of theological nonsense.

    As you should know well, only if ALL the Fathers agree on an interpretation of Scripture can it NOT be challenged. The Galileo case, which your referenced site uses as a theological argument for flat-earthism, I reject absolutely. Not once was a flat earth brought up by either the philosophers or theologians in the Galileo affair. All presumed that the earth is a globe at the time, and Pythagorism was only in the context of a moving sun and the earth immobile at the centre of the universe.

    So what if many of the Fathers held to a flat earth, this confirms nothing but that they were wrong.
    Many Church Fathers and scripture take a lot of time describing creation explaining the heavens are vaulted and hell is a pit, that there are no antipodes, people living opposite of each other; and that Jerusalem is at the center of the world.  Beyond that, no one is certain exactly the shape of the world. That up is up, is beyond question in the flat earth model.  That up is up on a ball is a contradiction.  Up is above, not "out there" or "down there" as it would have to be on a ball.  Above on a ball is sometimes up, sometimes down, depending on where you are. Such an excellent foundation for relativity and relativism employed so easily these days one has to wonder how such deception has taken foothold in society, unless of course, the very world they believe in supports it.  Catholic teachings are incompatible with a globe.  The firmament is incompatible with a globe.  There is no such thing as space. Rockets never went outside the firmament.  How can oxygen starved engines operate in so-called space?  How does a vacuum exist without being contained?  
    How did Christ rise on a globe?   Which way did Christ rise that doesn't contradict itself? Which way is up on a globe? Science that even a child can understand proves beyond any reasonable doubt that water cannot stick to a ball, let alone curve across its surface when at rest.  Ships do not disappear behind a curve when they sail out to sea, the number one proof round earthers once used but was handily destroyed with greater access to cameras and telescopes.   Planes do not adjust for a curve as they fly, but fly level using instruments that are incapable of adjusting for arc because they work exclusively by keeping the plane level.  Lighthouses, astrolabes, bubble levels and literally dozens of instruments can only work on a flat surface.
    The only reason flat earth was not brought up by the geocentrists in the Galileo case is because flat earth comes prepackaged with geocentrism and has always been included.  The discussion in the Galileo Affair was about which model was true.  There are only two systems, heliocentric and geocentric, and the Church condemned heliocentrism.  Cosmas used scripture in literally dozens of ways proving earth is not a sphere.  How odd that the contention today happens to be with globalist pagans using the heliocentric model to enslave the masses with their lies, flinging human beings through space on a ball.  Smh.  The pagan mouthpiece of heliocentrism, NASA, has been caught with their hand in the cgi cookie jar by faking moon landings, painting globes, rendering cgi planets and suspending people in the air via green screens in the fake ssi while stealing billions, but lets believe them anyway!  The entire modern science world is as dirty and convoluted as apostate bishops of the Catholic Church, full of lies and half truths that lead people to believe in a pagan model of their world recreated in Satan's image that makes it possible for the antiChrist to take his seat.

    Both scripture and prophecy have warned us that there are false sciences, so there is no question that this subject matters. I wonder which one is false? Heliocentrism or geocentrism?  Round earth or flat earth?
    St. Nilus: ...the impious one!...will so complete science with vanity that it will go off the right path and lead people to lose faith in the existence of God in three hypostases.

    With the crisis in the Church and the great apostasy proving that we are in the evil times spoken of by St. Nilus, and with the world accepting heliocentrism, literally pounding it down our throats, it is fair to say we know who's lying.  Mankind wholesale purchased false science warned about in scripture because they abandoned God's Word and His Church: 1 Timothy 6:20 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.
    Your theory rests on a literal hatred for flat earth and the notion that pagan science has to be truthful on one issue: that earth is a globe.  Ha. Good luck with that.  Everything you believe about globe earth is based in the hopes that the Fathers of the Church were wrong, prophecy is wrong, simple understanding is wrong, math is wrong, empirical science is wrong, history is wrong, and that modern pagan scientists who long held heliocentrism are somehow right because they and their pagan predecessors couldn't possibly tell a lie.  Unhappy hope.  

    Offline deutschcath

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #21 on: July 08, 2017, 05:16:08 PM »
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  • I think we have all heard of 'Faith and reason' or 'Faith and science (scientia).' Our Catholic faith claims that because it is truth, it will comply with all known and unknown scientia.

    'Scientia' by the way is knowledge. It comprises knowledge acquired through the senses, knowledge acquired through the empirical or inductive method, knowledge acquired through philosophy, the search through reason alone, and finally through theology.
    Unless all four are compatible, or not contradicted in any of the four conditions, then the truth is not present.

    Flat-earthism does not comply with all four conditions of scientia. It denies the empirical science of geodesy, earth measurement on a large scale. This science, which can measure the curvature of the earth, has been practiced since the 17th century and fully accepted as such by both Church and state. Such is the size of the earth that this curvature can only be measured over long distances, thousands of miles. Flat earthers use this fact to argue there is no curvature detectable, using short distance photos for their purpose.

    Flat-earthism denies the evidence of the senses, what we see. Leaving apart the fact that every other body created by God is a globe of some sort, lending reason (philosophy) that our earth is also a globe, with gravity measured and changing according to the different positions on global earth, which would not be the case if the earth is flat, flat-earthism denies the curvatures seen in photographs of the earth taken from space. This denial depends on thousands of people involved in space flight all supposedly conspiring to keep the biggest secret known to man a secret, not one of them breaking ranks to expose the supposed conspiracy. Next they will tell us there are no satellites up there at all.

    Anyway, my point on this thread is that to claim Catholic theology can be in agreement with such denials and asserted frauds is to put Catholic theology in the same class as cօռspιʀαcιҽs or doubts, used to undermine the truth acquired through scientia.
    Global earth, on the other hand, is totally in keeping with all four conditions of scientia, no compromises or denials necessary in any of the four conditions, and that includes the globe of the Child of Prague and the Miraculous medal, both images that have been backed up with miracles of different kinds.



    Mr. Cassini,
    You throw around a lot of big words, but it is mostly hot air.
    Geodesy, if it based on the assumption that the earth is a ball, cannot be approved by the Church, for the simple reason that science tells us that it is not a ball. Our senses cannot contradiction themselves.
    I can see that you are finding it difficult to let go of Geo-centrism, probably because you have invested a lot in it. Prayer and humility will help with that.
    We can't have long range photos because of perspective, not curvature. It is sufficient to show that the earth is not 46k km in circuмference, which our "short range" photos prove beyond a doubt. That should be enough for you to let go of this ball earth theory.


    http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/f9-flat-earth-proofs



    and perspective:



    Offline noOneImportant

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #22 on: July 08, 2017, 06:02:12 PM »
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  • That perspective argument always makes me laugh. It requires light to curve at sharp angles and an arbitrary distance away from the viewer, and to turn at a different place if the viewer walks forward or backwards. It also turns at a different distance depending on who is seeing it. Pretty impressive stuff to be honest.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #23 on: July 09, 2017, 12:14:32 PM »
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  • Mr. Cassini,
    You throw around a lot of big words, but it is mostly hot air.
    Geodesy, if it based on the assumption that the earth is a ball, cannot be approved by the Church, for the simple reason that science tells us that it is not a ball. Our senses cannot contradiction themselves.
    I can see that you are finding it difficult to let go of Geo-centrism, probably because you have invested a lot in it. Prayer and humility will help with that.
    We can't have long range photos because of perspective, not curvature. It is sufficient to show that the earth is not 46k km in circuмference, which our "short range" photos prove beyond a doubt. That should be enough for you to let go of this ball earth theory.





    deutschcath, would you mind if we keep this thread confined to the 'theological' aspect of flatearthism? There are enough threads to post pictures and videos of opticla difficulties and illusions without throwing them into this thread.

    Now let us read another little bit of 'hot air.'

    It comes from; ‘The Mystical City of God’ or ‘The Divine History and Life of the Virgin Mother of God, the private revelations from heaven to Sister Mary of Jesus, better known as Mary of Agreda (1602-1665). The following insights, dictated to her, she said, by the Virgin Mary herself in 1637, a mere four years after Galileo’s trial wherein the formal heresy of a fixed sun was condemned by popes of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. 

    I post here one relevant paragraph.

    ‘Of the first day Moses says that “In the beginning God created heaven and earth.” And before creating intellectual and rational creatures, desiring also the order of executing these works to be most perfect, He created heaven for angels and men; and the earth as a place of pilgrimage for mortals. These places are so adapted to their end and so perfect that as David says of them, the heavens publish the glory of the Lord, the firmament and the earth announce the glory of the work of his hands (Ps.18, 2). The heavens in their beauty manifest His magnificence and glory, because in them is deposited the predestined reward of the just. And the earthly firmament announced that there would be creatures and man to inhabit the earth and that man should journey upon it to their Creator. Of the earth Moses says that it was void, which he does not say of the heavens, for God had created the angels at the instant indicated by the word of Moses: “God said: Let there be light, and light was made.” He speaks here not only of material light, but also of the intellectual or angelic lights…. God created the earth co-jointly with the heavens in order to call into existence hell in its centre; for, at the instant of its creation, there were left in the interior of that globe, spacious and wide cavities, suitable for hell, purgatory and limbo. And in hell was created at the same time material fire and other requisites, which now serve for the punishment of the damned.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #24 on: July 09, 2017, 12:50:47 PM »
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  • Many Church Fathers and scripture take a lot of time describing creation explaining the heavens are vaulted and hell is a pit, that there are no antipodes, people living opposite of each other; and that Jerusalem is at the center of the world.  Beyond that, no one is certain exactly the shape of the world. That up is up, is beyond question in the flat earth model.  That up is up on a ball is a contradiction.  Up is above, not "out there" or "down there" as it would have to be on a ball.  Above on a ball is sometimes up, sometimes down, depending on where you are. Such an excellent foundation for relativity and relativism employed so easily these days one has to wonder how such deception has taken foothold in society, unless of course, the very world they believe in supports it.  Catholic teachings are incompatible with a globe.  The firmament is incompatible with a globe.  There is no such thing as space. Rockets never went outside the firmament.  How can oxygen starved engines operate in so-called space?  How does a vacuum exist without being contained?  
    How did Christ rise on a globe?   Which way did Christ rise that doesn't contradict itself? Which way is up on a globe? Science that even a child can understand proves beyond any reasonable doubt that water cannot stick to a ball, let alone curve across its surface when at rest.  


    What's Up you ask Happenby. Well Solange Hertz told us here:

    http://www.ldolphin.org/geocentricity/Hertz.pdf 

    What's up is as relevant to the global earth as a flat earth. Take the global moon and planets for example. Why don't rocks or dust fall off the underside of it? The answer of course is GRAVITY.

    Understanding Gravity: From the Latin gravitás, meaning heavy.

    For great is the power of God alone, and he is honoured by the humble. Seek not the things that are too high for thee, and search not into things above thy ability: but the things that God hath commanded thee, think on them always, and in many of his works be not curious. For it is not necessary for thee to see with thy eyes those things that are hid. In unnecessary matters be not over curious, and in many of his works thou shalt not be inquisitive. For many things are shewn to thee above the understanding of men. And the suspicion of them hath deceived man, and hath detained their minds in vanity.” (Ecclus 3:21-26).

    It is gravity that allows all on global earth to have the earth under us and the sky above. Christ rose up into the sky into heaven as witnessed by some of the Apostles. That is why all things stay fixed to earth all around the globe. So, all up is heaven, and all down is Hell, the furthest place from heaven.



    Offline deutschcath

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #25 on: July 10, 2017, 10:01:06 AM »
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  • Mr Cassini,

    You have given ONE private revelation, I have given the Fathers of the Church and the Magisterium.  So unless you have something more to add, I think it is obvious who is on the right side.

    By the way, your quote can also mean the globe of CREATION. See diagrams posted earlier in this thread. Further, even one of the Fathers, perhaps two adopted the error that the earth was round, so it would not be surprising if Mary of Agreda fell for it.

    Finally we should be careful of translations. Orbis means circle, and yet it translated globe because people just make the false assumption that the earth it a globe.

    I think that trying to tell others what they should put in their posts (when you disagree with them!) shows what a desperate position you are now in. If you can't be humble, then at least be quiet.



    Offline BC

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #26 on: July 10, 2017, 12:10:31 PM »
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  • Out of nowhere came this flat-earth theory, claiming it too is revealed in Scripture. Yes they can quote some Fathers, some saints, and some philosophers who also held the Bible teaches a flat earth. Then, like the heliocentric/geocentric science, they can show reasons as to its credibility. However, their theory needs to deny so much it falls into the ridiculous. All space photos of a global earth are fakes according to their theory, the science of geodesy is useless, and astronomical distances of the earth, sun, moon and planets have to be made fit their mathematics and not according to 500 years of measuring and planes and ships may think they are moving around a global-earth when in fact they are going in flat-earth circles. No doubt they will continue to insist their science is credible and that is their position.


    NASA's astronomical figures always sound perfectly precise, but heliocentrists have historically been notorious for regularly and drastically changing them to suit their various models. For instance, in his time Nicolas Copernicus calculated the Sun’s distance from Earth to be 3,391,200 miles. The next century Johannes Kepler decided it was actually 12,376,800 miles away. Issac Newton once said, “It matters not whether we reckon it 28 or 54 million miles distant for either would do just as well!” How scientific!? Benjamin Martin calculated between 81 and 82 million miles, Thomas Dilworth claimed 93,726,900 miles, John Hind stated positively 95,298,260 miles, Benjamin Gould said more than 96 million miles, and Christian Mayer thought it was more than 104 million! Nowadays they have settled around 93 million for the time-being.

    “As the sun, according to ‘science’ may be anything from 3 to 104 million miles away, there is plenty of ‘space’ to choose from. It is like the showman and the child. You pay your money - for various astronomical works - and you take your choice as to what distance you wish the sun to be. If you are a modest person, go in for a few millions; but if you wish to be ‘very scientific’ and to be ‘mathematically certain’ of your figures, then I advise you to make your choice somewhere about a hundred millions. You will at least have plenty of ‘space’ to retreat into, should the next calculation be against the figures of your choice. You can always add a few millions to ‘keep up with the times,’ or take off as many as may be required to adjust the distance to the ‘very latest’ accurate column of figures. Talk about ridicule, the whole of modern astronomy is like a farcical comedy - full of surprises. One never knows what monstrous or ludicrous absurdity may come forth next. You must not apply the ordinary rules of common-sense to astronomical guesswork. No, the thing would fall to pieces if you did.” -Thomas Winship, “Zetetic Cosmogeny” http://ifers.123.st/t129-the-size-and-distance-of-the-sun-moon

    Cassini, as I said over at FE, I respect all your work done on Geocentrism.  It seems if anyone is making up distances, it very well could be the Masonic scientist astronomers/NASA. As Astronomer Tycho Brahe observed:

    “There really are not any spheres in the heavens… Those of which have been devised by the experts to save the appearances exist only in the imagination, for the purpose of enabling the mind to conceive the motion which the heavenly bodies trace in their course and, by the aid of geometry, to determine the motion numerically through the use of arithmetic.”- Tycho Brahe, On the Most Recent Phenomena of the Aetherial World, 1588

    Johannes Kepler took over Brahe's work and reconfigured the paradigm that is now accepted for astronomy.  And yet:

    After 400 Years, a Challenge to Kepler: He Fabricated His Data, Scholar Says

    JOHANNES KEPLER, the father of modern astronomy, fabricated data in presenting his theory of how the planets move around the Sun, apparently to bolster acceptance of the insight by skeptics, a scholar has found.

    The scholar, William H. Donahue, said the evidence of Kepler's scientific fakery is contained in an elaborate chart he presented to support his theory.

    ''He fudged things,'' Dr. Donahue said, adding that Kepler was never challenged by a contemporary. ''Kepler was one of the people who invented modern science,'' said Walter W. Stewart, a researcher with the National Institutes of Health who is helping Congress investigate cases of scientific fraud. ''It's not clear his standards were the same as ours.''

    http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/23/science/after-400-years-a-challenge-to-kepler-he-fabricated-his-data-scholar-says.html?pagewanted=all

    I am wondering though how you account for the solid Firmament above, with your paradigm being essentially the same as Heliocentrists regarding space ball planets, distances, space exploration, etc. etc.

    Origen called the firmament "without doubt firm and solid" (First Homily on Genesis, FC 71).

    St. Ambrose, commenting on Gen 1:6, said, 'the specific solidity of this exterior firmament is meant' (Hexameron, FC 42.60).

    St. Augustine said the word firmament was used 'to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassable boundary between the waters above and the waters below' (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, ACW 41.1.61)." - p. 236

    Saint Basil: “Now we must say something about the nature of the firmament, and why it received the order to hold the middle place between the waters. Scripture constantly makes use of the word firmament to express extraordinary strength....‘I made firm her pillars [Ps. 75:3].’ ‘Praise ye Him in the firmament of His power [Ps. 150:1].’ It is the custom of Scripture to call firmament all that is strong and unyielding. It even uses the word to denote the condensation of the air. God says, ‘For, behold, I am He that strengthens the thunder [Amos 4:13].’ Scripture means by the strengthening of the thunder, the strength and resistance of the wind, which, enclosed in the hollows of the clouds, produces the noise of thunder when it breaks through with violence. Here then, according to me, is a firm substance, capable of retaining the fluid and unstable element water; and as, according to the common acceptation, it appears that the firmament owes its origin to water, we must not believe that it resembles frozen water or any other matter produced by the filtration of water. For I am taught by Scripture not to allow my imagination to wander too far afield. But do not let us forget to remark that, after these divine words, ‘Let there be a firmament [Gen. 1:6],’ it is not said ‘and the firmament was made’ but, ‘God made the firmament, and God divided between the water that was under the firmament and between the water that was above the firmament [Gen. 1:7].’.  Saint Basil, “Hom. III(9),” Hexaemeron, NPNF, 2nd Ser., Vol. VIII.

    ....But as far as concerns the separation of the waters I am obliged to contest the opinion of certain writers in the church who, under the shadow of high and sublime conceptions, have launched out into metaphor and have seen in the waters only a figure to denote spiritual and incorporeal powers. In the higher regions, accordingly, above the firmament, dwell the better; in the lower regions, earth and matter are the dwelling place of the malignant. So, say they, God is praised by the waters that are above the heavens, that is to say, by the good powers, the purity of whose soul makes them worthy to sing the praises of God. And the waters that are under the heavens represent the wicked spirits, who from their natural height have fallen into the abyss of evil. Turbulent, seditious, agitated by the tumultuous waves of passion, they have received the name of sea, because of the instability and the inconstancy of their movements. Let us reject these theories as dreams and old women’s tales. "Hexaemeron" 3.9. in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 2 8:70-71.

    Unless we are contesting this reality described Scripture and the Church Fathers, how can there be any spaceships, satellites and rockets flying off tens of thousands of miles into space to distant moons and planets?

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #27 on: March 10, 2018, 05:09:37 AM »
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  • Do you have a link for the above? I can't find anything online called, "The Doctrine of Geocentrism by Andrew White."
    Yeah right, Cassini seems to refuse to provide links to the stuff he posts.  Yet he wants to claim it has authority.  Ha!, it's just him talking/plagarizing.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #28 on: March 10, 2018, 08:23:48 AM »
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  • Why is it called Flat Earth if nothing in the diagram is flat? I think the use of the term flat earth and flat earther is like calling oneself a Lefevbrist or Feeneyite, they are pejorative labels created by their antagonist enemies, why accept them?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #29 on: March 10, 2018, 12:00:13 PM »
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  • Why is it called Flat Earth if nothing in the diagram is flat? I think the use of the term flat earth and flat earther is like calling oneself a Lefevbrist or Feeneyite, they are pejorative labels created by their antagonist enemies, why accept them?
    Flat meaning, the earth itself is not a whirling globe.  Flat earth includes valleys and mountains, hell below, heaven above, indeed collectively a globe.  Yes, flat earth is a bit of a misnomer.