He's talking about the shape of heaven,We've already seen that the shape of the earth is considered many times by Saints, including St. Augustine. Was he wrong for doing it? Obviously, this quote does not stand for all time or all situations because many Saints discussed this with regard to Scripture. And with few exceptions, the far greater majority believed Scripture teaches earth is flat. Most importantly, for out day and time, simple conclusions are easy to come to: 1. Scripture describes a flat earth. 2. Pagans describe earth is a globe. 3. Believe Scripture.
Not the shape of the earth.
They presumed it was flat. And the question was whether went around the flat earth like a globe, or whether it was just over it.
Nice try Jayne.
He's talking about the shape of heaven,He is talking about the two major competing cosmological models of his time. These include shapes of both heaven and earth.
Not the shape of the earth.
They presumed it was flat. And the question was whether went around the flat earth like a globe, or whether it was just over it.
Nice try Jayne.
Try to read your own quotes a little closer next time.
We've already seen that the shape of the earth is considered many times by Saints, including St. Augustine. Was he wrong for doing it? Obviously, this quote does not stand for all time or all situations because many Saints discussed this with regard to Scripture. And with few exceptions, the far greater majority believed Scripture teaches earth is flat.No, St. Augustine does not speculate on the shape of the earth. He occasionally mentions it when it is relevant to a theological problem. He is saying that his contemporaries who were trying to find the shape of the earth in Scripture were wrong. Even those who we now know are Saints. He is clearly teaching that Scripture does not speak on this.
...the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation." Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time...
The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect.
He is talking about the two major competing cosmological models of his time. These include shapes of both heaven and earth.There is the model of the spherical earth surrounded by a spherical heaven which he describes in this passage as: "heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe." And there is the model of the flat earth with a dome shaped heaven which he describes as: "heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side."
There is the model of the spherical earth surrounded by a spherical heaven which he describes in this passage as: "heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe." And there is the model of the flat earth with a dome shaped heaven which he describes as: "heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side."
Since there wasn't anybody around then who thought that there was a flat earth surrounded by a spherical heaven, there is no reason he would be mentioning that possibility. A spherical earth in a spherical heaven was the dominant cosmological model of the classical world. Of course, that is the model he is talking about.
And we see elsewhere in St. Augustine's writing (such as his discussion of the antipodes) that he leaves open the option of the earth being a globe. He does not presume the earth is flat. On the contrary, the majority of scholars think that he himself believed the earth is a sphere.
No, St. Augustine does not speculate on the shape of the earth. He occasionally mentions it when it is relevant to a theological problem. He is saying that his contemporaries who were trying to find the shape of the earth in Scripture were wrong. Even those who we now know are Saints. He is clearly teaching that Scripture does not speak on this.PD does not say some of the Fathers had wrong opinions on flat earth. If so, where?
And this is not just his opinion. It is incorporated into magisterial teaching in Providentissimus Deus:
The encyclical, not only states it as a principle that stands for all time, but broadens the scope. This is not simply about the shape of heaven and earth, but concerns "the essential nature of the things of the visible universe" in general. The encyclical does not give examples of what it means by this, but obviously it includes the original context of the quote, the shape of heaven and earth.
And Pope Leo XIII, in this encyclical, backs up St. Augustine in saying that some of these Fathers had wrong opinions on these matters.
The Church teaches that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth. Therefore Fathers who interpreted Scripture as teaching a flat earth were incorrect. Therefore, people of our time who interpret Scripture as teaching a flat earth are imposing their own interpretation contrary to the teaching of the Church.
Catholics are free to believe the earth is flat if this is how they understand the science, but it is wrong to claim that Scripture teaches something about a subject that the Church says Scripture is silent on.
PD does not say some of the Fathers had wrong opinions on flat earth. If so, where?Saint Augustine said that Scripture was silent on the shape of the heaven and earth. This was obviously accepted by Catholics throughout the middle ages because they determined the shape of the earth with science, rather than Scripture. Then Pope Leo XIII said it in an encyclical. When something has this much support from Tradition, we should accept it as true, even if it does not fit our pet theories.
Scripture is not silent on the shape of the earth no matter who says it. Period.
The Fathers who interpreted Scripture teaches flat earth were not incorrect. No where is there proof of such an outrageous claim that the Fathers were incorrect.
Any drawn conclusions from errors like this are proven incorrect.
Saint Augustine said that Scripture was silent on the shape of the heaven and earth. This was obviously accepted by Catholics throughout the middle ages because they determined the shape of the earth with science, rather than Scripture. Then Pope Leo XIII said it in an encyclical. When something has this much support from Tradition, we should accept it as true, even if it does not fit our pet theories.This statement of Augustine wasn't accepted because many Saints DID talk about it. Before and after St. Augustine. And Scripture talked about it throughout the texts. Science must be in accord with Scripture or it's false science. And spherical earth is not in accord with Scripture. The Encyclical you speak of even says that those who hold to the LITERAL interpretation of Scripture can expound on the issues of science. To suggest otherwise is proven false by Saints, Scripture and PD.
A papal encyclical explicitly stated that the Fathers could have incorrect opinions on things like the shape of the earth. Church teaching shows that the Fathers who saw support for flat earth were wrong in their way of interpreting Scripture.
This statement of Augustine wasn't accepted because many Saints DID talk about it. Before and after St. Augustine. And Scripture talked about it throughout the texts. Science must be in accord with Scripture or it's false science. And spherical earth is not in accord with Scripture. The Encyclical you speak of even says that those who hold to the LITERAL interpretation of Scripture can expound on the issues of science. To suggest otherwise is proven false by Saints, Scripture and PD.Spherical earth is not in accord with a particular interpretation of Scripture (associated with the Antiochian school of exegesis) that was never adopted by the Church as a whole. You do not understand what PD is saying about literal interpretation.
Spherical earth is not in accord with a particular interpretation of Scripture (associated with the Antiochian school of exegesis) that was never adopted by the Church as a whole. You do not understand what PD is saying about literal interpretation.Spherical earth is not in accord with ANY interpretation of Scripture. No one uses Scripture to teach earth is spherical. Yet, many Saints and ancients both describe from experience and from Scripture that earth is flat.
There has been over a thousand years in which the consensus and practice of the Church was based on the assumption that Scripture did not teach that the earth was flat. This is why virtually all Catholics since 700 AD believed the earth is a sphere.
The flat earth movement of the last century or so was started by Protestants. These are the people who might think that Scripture teaches flat earth. Catholics believe that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and this belief has existed since the Patristic period.
Spherical earth is not in accord with ANY interpretation of Scripture. No one uses Scripture to teach earth is spherical. Yet, many Saints and ancients both describe from experience and from Scripture that earth is flat.St. Augustine taught that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and this view was, in time, accepted by the Church and eventually incorporated into magisterial teaching.
The flat earth "movement" wasn't started by Prots, but it was certainly maintained by many Prots. Flat earth is ingrained in the hearts and minds of those who read Scripture and Catholics who appreciate the Saints and Scripture.
St. Augustine taught that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and this view was, in time, accepted by the Church and eventually incorporated into magisterial teaching.St. Augustine is not the Church. He disobeyed his own statement, so he either didn't mean it as you think, or it wasn't important to him. But that doesn't mean it isn't important.
Of course, nobody uses Scripture to teach that earth is spherical. Since Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth, nobody ought to use it to teach that. Those who seek to learn the shape of the earth through science rather than Scripture are being good Catholics.
The Saints who interpreted Scripture as saying that the earth was flat, for the most part, did so before St. Augustine taught that Scripture was silent on the subject.
Catholics who appreciate that Scripture must be understood with the mind of the Church do not look for the shape of the earth in Scripture. Flat earth is the domain of those who, like Protestants, understand Scripture according to their personal interpretation.
St. Augustine is not the Church. He disobeyed his own statement, so he either didn't mean it as you think, or it wasn't important to him. But that doesn't mean it isn't important.
There were other Saints and Catholics who spoke about the shape of the earth after St. Augustine.
It is impossible to miss the shape of the earth in Scripture as the Saints themselves explain. Just because one guy didn't think was important, spoke about it anyway and others spoke about it, shows that your premise is devoid of value. Making stuff up against the evidence available is very untoward.
“Moses, is silent as to shapes; he has not said that the earth is a hundred and eighty thousand furlongs in circuмference; he has not measured into what extent of air its shadow projects itself whilst the sun revolves around it, nor stated how this shadow, casting itself upon the moon, produces eclipses. He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? Shall I not rather exalt Him who, not wishing to fill our minds with these vanities, has regulated all the economy of Scripture in view of the edification and the making perfect of our souls?” (Saint Basil the Great – Hexaemeron 9, HOMILY IX)
He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us..
St. Augustine's teaching was incorporated into a papal encyclical. That is Church teaching, not just "one guy".When was the globe officially accepted by the Church? Do you have that docuмent? Who wrote it? There should be something tangible out there if you're going to insist the Church accepted the globe. Silent apostasy of Catholics against Scripture is no proof. I've yet to see a Father who teaches how the globe works with the Scripture's descriptions of earth. And it's pretty haughty to contend that the nature of God's creation is unimportant. Your argument lauds generations of pagans who pushed for the globe relentlessly, hundreds of years BC and AD. Their nonsense finally got the Church's attention and She condemned the Pythagorean/Copernican Doctrine calling it "altogether false". Now, if the Church had actually accepted or taught earth was a globe, She would have singled the globe part out and said, "altogether condemned, except for the globe earth". But She didn't. The model was condemned altogether. That means, entirely. Add up every last Catholic who ever lived that believed earth was a globe and they don't even begin to outweigh the Fathers who echo Scripture and the liturgy. Too many Fathers expounded not only on Genesis, but Psalms, Job, Isaiah, and other biblical texts. Interesting how the sketch of the flat earth is found in many older Catholic bibles. You'll certainly never find a sketch of the globe in an older bible. This isn't even legitimately up for debate as we have Father's quotes, their teachings and how those teachings work with, and bring to life Scriptural texts. We also have the science to back the Fathers up. The Fathers taught that church architecture, the liturgy, the vestments, the altar, the dome, the pillars, the Sacrifice, the candles, down to the scalloped edge on the altar cloth, together reflect, within themselves, a microcosm of the earth and seas. And, that the earth is a macrocosm of the Church. That's not some random notion of the Saints. That...is revelation.
It may have taken some time for this teaching to be accepted throughout the Church, but you have never shown any Catholic believing in flat earth (based on Scripture or any other reason) after 700. What Saints spoke about this after St. Augustine? Where did he "disobey his own statement"?
The Church teaches that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth. Saying that it is impossible to miss it is going against Church teaching. (It is also contrary to the history of the Church, since Catholics have been missing seeing flat earth in Scripture since the middle ages.)
St. Basil also taught that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and that it is unimportant:
He is talking about the two major competing cosmological models of his time. These include shapes of both heaven and earth.
There is the model of the spherical earth surrounded by a spherical heaven which he describes in this passage as: "heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe." And there is the model of the flat earth with a dome shaped heaven which he describes as: "heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side."
Since there wasn't anybody around then who thought that there was a flat earth surrounded by a spherical heaven, there is no reason he would be mentioning that possibility. A spherical earth in a spherical heaven was the dominant cosmological model of the classical world. Of course, that is the model he is talking about.
And we see elsewhere in St. Augustine's writing (such as his discussion of the antipodes) that he leaves open the option of the earth being a globe. He does not presume the earth is flat. On the contrary, the majority of scholars think that he himself believed the earth is a sphere.
"HEAVEN is like a sphere..." "HEAVEN like a disk..."They see, or they wouldn't argue so vehemently.
Yes clearly there were people who thought the sky went around the flat earth. Because there were also people who said the earth was shaped like a cone. So it shouldn't surprise you. If St. Augustine wanted to say Earth, then he would have.
When was the globe officially accepted by the Church? Do you have that docuмent? Who wrote it? There should be something tangible out there if you're going to insist the Church accepted the globe. Silent apostasy of Catholics against Scripture is no proof. I've yet to see a Father who teaches how the globe works with the Scripture's descriptions of earth. And it's pretty haughty to contend that the nature of God's creation is unimportant. Your argument lauds generations of pagans who pushed for the globe relentlessly, hundreds of years BC and AD. Their nonsense finally got the Church's attention and She condemned the Pythagorean/Copernican Doctrine calling it "altogether false". Now, if the Church had actually accepted or taught earth was a globe, She would have singled the globe part out and said, "altogether condemned, except for the globe earth". But She didn't. The model was condemned altogether. That means, entirely. Add up every last Catholic who ever lived that believed earth was a globe and they don't even begin to outweigh the Fathers who echo Scripture and the liturgy. Too many Fathers expounded not only on Genesis, but Psalms, Job, Isaiah, and other biblical texts. Interesting how the sketch of the flat earth is found in many older Catholic bibles. You'll certainly never find a sketch of the globe in an older bible. This isn't even legitimately up for debate as we have Father's quotes, their teachings and how those teachings work with, and bring to life Scriptural texts. We also have the science to back the Fathers up. The Fathers taught that church architecture, the liturgy, the vestments, the altar, the dome, the pillars, the Sacrifice, the candles, down to the scalloped edge on the altar cloth, together reflect, within themselves, a microcosm of the earth and seas. And, that the earth is a macrocosm of the Church. That's not some random notion of the Saints. That...is revelation.Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and yet you still keep demanding to be shown from Scripture that the earth is a globe.
"HEAVEN is like a sphere..." "HEAVEN like a disk..."He did say "earth".
Yes clearly there were people who thought the sky went around the flat earth. Because there were also people who said the earth was shaped like a cone. So it shouldn't surprise you. If St. Augustine wanted to say Earth, then he would have.
Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and yet you still keep demanding to be shown from Scripture that the earth is a globe.You were the one that said the Church accepted the globe when She never did. You said it repeatedly. Rather than trying to snake out of what you do wrong, you twist the argument when put to the test. Then you say it a second time telling me that I'm going against Church teaching and tradition. Attempting to demean me in self congratulations is ridiculous and sounds like the cry of Triumphalism! from the Protestants. You've been given the opportunity for release from the clutches of the modern scientism that attacks God's truth and leads to slavery. Attacking the messenger is common, but it isn't Catholic.
You keep making all the same wrong assertions no matter how many times you have them explained to you.
You are going against Church teaching and tradition while congratulating yourself that you are a better Catholic than anyone else. It is very sad.
He did say "earth".Modern geocentrism doesn't teach earth is enclosed by the heavens, but by the vacuum of space. It doesn't even recognize the firmament, but dismisses it as unknowable. How can Augustine think earth is a sphere if heaven covers the earth on one side? Obviously, he is describing a dome. Again, your attempts to prove what you want to believe has failed for the umpteenth time.
"heaven is like a sphere and the EARTH is enclosed by it"
"heaven like a disk above the EARTH covers it over on one side"
.You are right. I need a break.
Good thing then we're focusing on what's really important for us.
.
Didn't you say you were going to give flat-earthism a break, Jaynek? What happened?
.
Matthew's detox suggestion didn't work, eh? ;D
You are right. I need a break.Take your medicine first
I have done as much as is possible for a lay person to do. These people need to be told by someone in authority that they are engaging in personal interpretations of Scripture that go against Church teaching and that they must stop. But, due to the Crisis, that is not going to happen.
Other than the Patristic period, there is no evidence of flat earth Catholics before Vatican II. The flat earth revival that started in the 1800s only happened among Protestants because we had shepherds that could prevent such nonsense then. But now there is a state of chaos. The sheep are scattered and come up with scatter-brained ideas.
I have presented the truth to the best of my ability and now these people are responsible for their willful blindness.
You are right. I need a break..
I have done as much as is possible for a lay person to do. These people need to be told by someone in authority that they are engaging in personal interpretations of Scripture that go against Church teaching and that they must stop. But, due to the Crisis, that is not going to happen.
Other than the Patristic period, there is no evidence of flat earth Catholics before Vatican II. The flat earth revival that started in the 1800s only happened among Protestants because we had shepherds that could prevent such nonsense then. But now there is a state of chaos. The sheep are scattered and come up with scatter-brained ideas.
I have presented the truth to the best of my ability and now these people are responsible for their willful blindness.
Modern geocentrism doesn't teach earth is enclosed by the heavens, but by the vacuum of space..
It doesn't even recognize the firmament, but dismisses it as unknowable..
How can Augustine think earth is a sphere if heaven covers the earth on one side? Obviously, he is describing a dome..
Again, your attempts to prove what you want to believe has failed for the umpteenth time..
You were the one that said the Church accepted the globe when She never did..