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Author Topic: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.  (Read 5686 times)

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Offline happenby

Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2018, 02:20:08 PM »
Quote from: Jaynek on June 06, 2018, 01:34:27 PM
He is talking about the two major competing cosmological models of his time. These include shapes of both heaven and earth.

There is the model of the spherical earth surrounded by a spherical heaven which he describes in this passage as: "heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe." And there is the model of the flat earth with a dome shaped heaven which he describes as: "heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side."

Since there wasn't anybody around then who thought that there was a flat earth surrounded by a spherical heaven, there is no reason he would be mentioning that possibility. A spherical earth in a spherical heaven was the dominant cosmological model of the classical world.  Of course, that is the model he is talking about.

And we see elsewhere in St. Augustine's writing (such as his discussion of the antipodes) that he leaves open the option of the earth being a globe.  He does not presume the earth is flat.  On the contrary, the majority of scholars think that he himself believed the earth is a sphere.
There is the model of the spherical earth surrounded by a spherical heaven which he describes in this passage as: "heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe." And there is the model of the flat earth with a dome shaped heaven which he describes as: "heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side."
This description is 100% flat earth.  We know this because other Fathers discuss it at length.  First, the "heaven is like a sphere and earth enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe" describes the dome above, with the flat earth in the center. Suspended in the middle is the terrestrial domain is proven because it says "heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side."  Which is the top side, or firmament, naturally.  This describes a dome over the flat earth.  
To say the majority of scholars think that Augustine believed the earth is a sphere is without merit unless and until Scripture is compared and a proper assessment is gleaned.  Even if Scripture doesn't appear to be crystal clear (for some) the conclusions arrived at must never be at odds with It. 
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Offline happenby

Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2018, 02:24:01 PM »
Quote from: Jaynek on June 06, 2018, 02:04:20 PM
No, St. Augustine does not speculate on the shape of the earth.  He occasionally mentions it when it is relevant to a theological problem. He is saying that his contemporaries who were trying to find the shape of the earth in Scripture were wrong. Even those who we now know are Saints. He is clearly teaching that Scripture does not speak on this.

And this is not just his opinion.  It is incorporated into magisterial teaching in Providentissimus Deus:

The encyclical, not only states it as a principle that stands for all time, but broadens the scope. This is not simply about the shape of heaven and earth, but concerns "the essential nature of the things of the visible universe" in general.  The encyclical does not give examples of what it means by this, but obviously it includes the original context of the quote, the shape of heaven and earth.

And Pope Leo XIII, in this encyclical, backs up St. Augustine in saying that some of these Fathers had wrong opinions on these matters.
The Church teaches that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth.  Therefore Fathers who interpreted Scripture as teaching a flat earth were incorrect.  Therefore, people of our time who interpret Scripture as teaching a flat earth are imposing their own interpretation contrary to the teaching of the Church.

Catholics are free to believe the earth is flat if this is how they understand the science, but it is wrong to claim that Scripture teaches something about a subject that the Church says Scripture is silent on.
PD does not say some of the Fathers had wrong opinions on flat earth.  If so, where?
Scripture is not silent on the shape of the earth no matter who says it.  Period. 
The Fathers who interpreted Scripture teaches flat earth were not incorrect.  No where is there proof of such an outrageous claim that the Fathers were incorrect.
Any drawn conclusions from errors like this are proven incorrect. 
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Offline Jaynek

Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 02:40:21 PM »
Quote from: happenby on June 06, 2018, 02:24:01 PM
PD does not say some of the Fathers had wrong opinions on flat earth.  If so, where?
Scripture is not silent on the shape of the earth no matter who says it.  Period.  
The Fathers who interpreted Scripture teaches flat earth were not incorrect.  No where is there proof of such an outrageous claim that the Fathers were incorrect.
Any drawn conclusions from errors like this are proven incorrect.
Saint Augustine said that Scripture was silent on the shape of the heaven and earth.  This was obviously accepted by Catholics throughout the middle ages because they determined the shape of the earth with science, rather than Scripture.  Then Pope Leo XIII said it in an encyclical.  When something has this much support from Tradition, we should accept it as true, even if it does not fit our pet theories.

A papal encyclical explicitly stated that the Fathers could have incorrect opinions on things like the shape of the earth.  Church teaching shows that the Fathers who saw support for flat earth were wrong in their way of interpreting Scripture.
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Offline happenby

Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2018, 02:54:22 PM »
Quote from: Jaynek on June 06, 2018, 02:40:21 PM
Saint Augustine said that Scripture was silent on the shape of the heaven and earth.  This was obviously accepted by Catholics throughout the middle ages because they determined the shape of the earth with science, rather than Scripture.  Then Pope Leo XIII said it in an encyclical.  When something has this much support from Tradition, we should accept it as true, even if it does not fit our pet theories.

A papal encyclical explicitly stated that the Fathers could have incorrect opinions on things like the shape of the earth.  Church teaching shows that the Fathers who saw support for flat earth were wrong in their way of interpreting Scripture.
This statement of Augustine wasn't accepted because many Saints DID talk about it.  Before and after St. Augustine.  And Scripture talked about it throughout the texts. Science must be in accord with Scripture or it's false science.  And spherical earth is not in accord with Scripture.  The Encyclical you speak of even says that those who hold to the LITERAL interpretation of Scripture can expound on the issues of science.  To suggest otherwise is proven false by Saints, Scripture and PD.   
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Offline Jaynek

Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2018, 03:05:59 PM »
Quote from: happenby on June 06, 2018, 02:54:22 PM
This statement of Augustine wasn't accepted because many Saints DID talk about it.  Before and after St. Augustine.  And Scripture talked about it throughout the texts. Science must be in accord with Scripture or it's false science.  And spherical earth is not in accord with Scripture.  The Encyclical you speak of even says that those who hold to the LITERAL interpretation of Scripture can expound on the issues of science.  To suggest otherwise is proven false by Saints, Scripture and PD.  
Spherical earth is not in accord with a particular interpretation of Scripture (associated with the Antiochian school of exegesis) that was never adopted by the Church as a whole. You do not understand what PD is saying about literal interpretation. 

There has been over a thousand years in which the consensus and practice of the Church was based on the assumption that Scripture did not teach that the earth was flat.   This is why virtually all Catholics since 700 AD believed the earth is a sphere.

The flat earth movement of the last century or so was started by Protestants.  These are the people who might think that Scripture teaches flat earth. Catholics believe that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and this belief has existed since the Patristic period.
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