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Author Topic: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.  (Read 1176 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2018, 12:16:11 AM »
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  • St. Augustine's teaching was incorporated into a papal encyclical.  That is Church teaching, not just "one guy".

    It may have taken some time for this teaching to be accepted throughout the Church, but you have never shown any Catholic believing in flat earth (based on Scripture or any other reason) after 700.  What Saints spoke about this after St. Augustine?  Where did he "disobey his own statement"?

    The Church teaches that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth. Saying that it is impossible to miss it is going against Church teaching.  (It is also contrary to the history of the Church, since Catholics have been missing seeing flat earth in Scripture since the middle ages.)

    St. Basil also taught that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and that it is unimportant:
    When was the globe officially accepted by the Church?  Do you have that docuмent? Who wrote it?  There should be something tangible out there if you're going to insist the Church accepted the globe.  Silent apostasy of Catholics against Scripture is no proof.  I've yet to see a Father who teaches how the globe works with the Scripture's descriptions of earth.  And it's pretty haughty to contend that the nature of God's creation is unimportant. Your argument lauds generations of pagans who pushed for the globe relentlessly, hundreds of years BC and AD. Their nonsense finally got the Church's attention and She condemned the Pythagorean/Copernican Doctrine calling it "altogether false".  Now, if the Church had actually accepted or taught earth was a globe, She would have singled the globe part out and said, "altogether condemned, except for the globe earth".  But She didn't.  The model was condemned altogether.  That means, entirely.  Add up every last Catholic who ever lived that believed earth was a globe and they don't even begin to outweigh the Fathers who echo Scripture and the liturgy. Too many Fathers expounded not only on Genesis, but Psalms, Job, Isaiah, and other biblical texts.  Interesting how the sketch of the flat earth is found in many older Catholic bibles.  You'll certainly never find a sketch of the globe in an older bible. This isn't even legitimately up for debate as we have Father's quotes, their teachings and how those teachings work with, and bring to life Scriptural texts. We also have the science to back the Fathers up.  The Fathers taught that church architecture, the liturgy, the vestments, the altar, the dome, the pillars, the Sacrifice, the candles, down to the scalloped edge on the altar cloth, together reflect, within themselves, a microcosm of the earth and seas. And, that the earth is a macrocosm of the Church. That's not some random notion of the Saints. That...is revelation.  

     


    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #16 on: June 07, 2018, 06:21:43 AM »
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  • He is talking about the two major competing cosmological models of his time. These include shapes of both heaven and earth.

    There is the model of the spherical earth surrounded by a spherical heaven which he describes in this passage as: "heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe." And there is the model of the flat earth with a dome shaped heaven which he describes as: "heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side."

    Since there wasn't anybody around then who thought that there was a flat earth surrounded by a spherical heaven, there is no reason he would be mentioning that possibility. A spherical earth in a spherical heaven was the dominant cosmological model of the classical world.  Of course, that is the model he is talking about.

    And we see elsewhere in St. Augustine's writing (such as his discussion of the antipodes) that he leaves open the option of the earth being a globe.  He does not presume the earth is flat.  On the contrary, the majority of scholars think that he himself believed the earth is a sphere.

    "HEAVEN is like a sphere..." "HEAVEN like a disk..."

    Yes clearly there were people who thought the sky went around the flat earth. Because there were also people who said the earth was shaped like a cone. So it shouldn't surprise you. If St. Augustine wanted to say Earth, then he would have.

    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017


    Offline happenby

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #17 on: June 07, 2018, 12:35:31 PM »
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  • "HEAVEN is like a sphere..." "HEAVEN like a disk..."

    Yes clearly there were people who thought the sky went around the flat earth. Because there were also people who said the earth was shaped like a cone. So it shouldn't surprise you. If St. Augustine wanted to say Earth, then he would have.
    They see, or they wouldn't argue so vehemently.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #18 on: June 07, 2018, 02:29:24 PM »
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  • When was the globe officially accepted by the Church?  Do you have that docuмent? Who wrote it?  There should be something tangible out there if you're going to insist the Church accepted the globe.  Silent apostasy of Catholics against Scripture is no proof.  I've yet to see a Father who teaches how the globe works with the Scripture's descriptions of earth.  And it's pretty haughty to contend that the nature of God's creation is unimportant. Your argument lauds generations of pagans who pushed for the globe relentlessly, hundreds of years BC and AD. Their nonsense finally got the Church's attention and She condemned the Pythagorean/Copernican Doctrine calling it "altogether false".  Now, if the Church had actually accepted or taught earth was a globe, She would have singled the globe part out and said, "altogether condemned, except for the globe earth".  But She didn't.  The model was condemned altogether.  That means, entirely.  Add up every last Catholic who ever lived that believed earth was a globe and they don't even begin to outweigh the Fathers who echo Scripture and the liturgy. Too many Fathers expounded not only on Genesis, but Psalms, Job, Isaiah, and other biblical texts.  Interesting how the sketch of the flat earth is found in many older Catholic bibles.  You'll certainly never find a sketch of the globe in an older bible. This isn't even legitimately up for debate as we have Father's quotes, their teachings and how those teachings work with, and bring to life Scriptural texts. We also have the science to back the Fathers up.  The Fathers taught that church architecture, the liturgy, the vestments, the altar, the dome, the pillars, the Sacrifice, the candles, down to the scalloped edge on the altar cloth, together reflect, within themselves, a microcosm of the earth and seas. And, that the earth is a macrocosm of the Church. That's not some random notion of the Saints. That...is revelation.  

     
    Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and yet you still keep demanding to be shown from Scripture that the earth is a globe.

    You keep making all the same wrong assertions no matter how many times you have them explained to you.

    You are going against Church teaching and tradition while congratulating yourself that you are a better Catholic than anyone else.  It is very sad.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #19 on: June 07, 2018, 02:33:25 PM »
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  • "HEAVEN is like a sphere..." "HEAVEN like a disk..."

    Yes clearly there were people who thought the sky went around the flat earth. Because there were also people who said the earth was shaped like a cone. So it shouldn't surprise you. If St. Augustine wanted to say Earth, then he would have.
    He did say "earth". 
    "heaven is like a sphere and the EARTH is enclosed by it"

    "heaven like a disk above the EARTH covers it over on one side"


    Offline happenby

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #20 on: June 07, 2018, 02:39:45 PM »
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  • Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth and yet you still keep demanding to be shown from Scripture that the earth is a globe.

    You keep making all the same wrong assertions no matter how many times you have them explained to you.

    You are going against Church teaching and tradition while congratulating yourself that you are a better Catholic than anyone else.  It is very sad.
    You were the one that said the Church accepted the globe when She never did.  You said it repeatedly. Rather than trying to snake out of what you do wrong, you twist the argument when put to the test.  Then you say it a second time telling me that I'm going against Church teaching and tradition.   Attempting to demean me in self congratulations is ridiculous and sounds like the cry of Triumphalism! from the Protestants. You've been given the opportunity for release from the clutches of the modern scientism that attacks God's truth and leads to slavery.  Attacking the messenger is common, but it isn't Catholic.      

    Offline happenby

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #21 on: June 07, 2018, 02:45:28 PM »
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  • He did say "earth".  
    "heaven is like a sphere and the EARTH is enclosed by it"

    "heaven like a disk above the EARTH covers it over on one side"
    Modern geocentrism doesn't teach earth is enclosed by the heavens, but by the vacuum of space.  It doesn't even recognize the firmament, but dismisses it as unknowable.  How can Augustine think earth is a sphere if heaven covers the earth on one side?  Obviously, he is describing a dome.  Again, your attempts to prove what you want to believe has failed for the umpteenth time. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #22 on: June 07, 2018, 02:47:03 PM »
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  • .
    Good thing then we're focusing on what's really important for us.
    .
    Didn't you say you were going to give flat-earthism a break, Jaynek?  What happened?  
    .
    Matthew's detox suggestion didn't work, eh?   ;D
    You are right.  I need a break.

    I have done as much as is possible for a lay person to do.  These people need to be told by someone in authority that they are engaging in personal interpretations of Scripture that go against Church teaching and that they must stop.  But, due to the Crisis, that is not going to happen.

    Other than the Patristic period, there is no evidence of flat earth Catholics before Vatican II.  The flat earth revival that started in the 1800s only happened among Protestants because we had shepherds that could prevent such nonsense then.  But now there is a state of chaos.  The sheep are scattered and come up with scatter-brained ideas.

    I have presented the truth to the best of my ability and now these people are responsible for their willful blindness.


    Offline aryzia

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #23 on: June 07, 2018, 03:14:52 PM »
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  • You are right.  I need a break.

    I have done as much as is possible for a lay person to do.  These people need to be told by someone in authority that they are engaging in personal interpretations of Scripture that go against Church teaching and that they must stop.  But, due to the Crisis, that is not going to happen.

    Other than the Patristic period, there is no evidence of flat earth Catholics before Vatican II.  The flat earth revival that started in the 1800s only happened among Protestants because we had shepherds that could prevent such nonsense then.  But now there is a state of chaos.  The sheep are scattered and come up with scatter-brained ideas.

    I have presented the truth to the best of my ability and now these people are responsible for their willful blindness.
    Take your medicine first

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #24 on: June 07, 2018, 07:17:14 PM »
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  • You are right.  I need a break.

    I have done as much as is possible for a lay person to do.  These people need to be told by someone in authority that they are engaging in personal interpretations of Scripture that go against Church teaching and that they must stop.  But, due to the Crisis, that is not going to happen.

    Other than the Patristic period, there is no evidence of flat earth Catholics before Vatican II.  The flat earth revival that started in the 1800s only happened among Protestants because we had shepherds that could prevent such nonsense then.  But now there is a state of chaos.  The sheep are scattered and come up with scatter-brained ideas.

    I have presented the truth to the best of my ability and now these people are responsible for their willful blindness.
    .
    I'm saying that out of concern for your own peace of mind. Your posts have been edifying not only for their content but for your patience in presenting them. I'm thinking that this enduring patience could wear thin. Having some time off could help, especially if you could seek material and a setting where you won't be attacked over each point. 
    .
    Perhaps looking over the responses from our Catholic shepherds in the 19th cent. against the Protestant flat-earthers would be a relaxing experience. It might be fun to imagine what it would be like to have the protection of an informed and holy hierarchy.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #25 on: June 07, 2018, 07:33:39 PM »
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  • .
    Here's a great example of a post full of fake statements:
    .
    Modern geocentrism doesn't teach earth is enclosed by the heavens, but by the vacuum of space.  
    .
    Fake statement. The vacuum of space surrounds earth's atmosphere and together they can be understood as what "the heavens" are.
    .
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    It doesn't even recognize the firmament, but dismisses it as unknowable.  
    .
    Fake statement. The firmament is nothing but another word for "the heavens" and consists of the earth's atmosphere and the vastness of outer space beyond it. There's nothing "unknowable" about that, and modern geocentrism never said it's "unknowable."
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    How can Augustine think earth is a sphere if heaven covers the earth on one side?  Obviously, he is describing a dome. 
    .
    Fake statement. Just because you can't manage to know the truth doesn't mean your ignorance applies to everyone else. There is the earth and there is what is outside the earth, which means beyond earth's atmosphere. It's not "on one side" -- you flat-earthers keep putting up artificial barriers to comprehension. No wonder you're all confused. Sad.
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    Again, your attempts to prove what you want to believe has failed for the umpteenth time. 
    .
    Fake statement. You wouldn't know a proof if it slapped you in the face. Flat-earthism fails continually but you'll take it to your grave at this rate.
    .
    I see that God created a globe earth, not a flat earth.  
    Satan has come to destroy this 3-D world and flatten it like a pancake.  
    Then Satan will imprison everyone under a dome like the kind used to cover pies in a bakery.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #26 on: June 07, 2018, 07:41:23 PM »
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  • You were the one that said the Church accepted the globe when She never did.    
    .
    The Church accepted the globe for the past 1300 years. What's new about that?
    .
    You, happenby, need to seek some professional intervention. 
    You have a psychosis. I'm concerned for your welfare. And for your children's. 
    .
    Psychosis
    Psychosis is a general term to describe a set of symptoms of mental illnesses that result in strange or bizarre thinking, perceptions (sight, sound), behaviors, and emotions. Psychosis is a brain-based condition that is made better or worse by environmental factors - like drug use and stress.

    Delusional Disorder: is characterized by irrational or intense belief(s) or suspicion(s) which a person believes to be true. These beliefs may seem outlandish and impossible (bizarre) or fit within the realm of what is possible (non-bizarre). Symptoms must last for 1 month or longer in order for someone to be diagnosed with delusional disorder.

    Getting Help
    Recovering from psychosis is possible and treatment can make a big difference.  If you are a young person and you think you might be showing the early signs of psychosis, visit Partners for Strong Minds and learn more about specialized supports that can help.
    If you’re an adult struggling with psychosis, visit our Finding Help page, or use our Where to Get Help Interactive Tool to find the best treatment options for you.

    http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/conditions/psychosis
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Shape of the Earth Is Not Important to the Faith.
    « Reply #27 on: August 25, 2018, 02:58:43 PM »
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  • .
    When it comes to flat-earthdom syndromers, there's one thing you can count on.
    .
    They really don't like to take advice.  Oh, well, just trying to help, but my help wasn't wanted I guess. 
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