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Author Topic: The pyramids and Noah's Flood  (Read 116370 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2025, 05:47:26 PM »
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  • I'll post the contents of the link here, since the lying scuм is trying to get away with pretending it's just AI, hoping that those here too lazy to click the link and look for themselves will believe his mendacious bullshit.  Unlike you, I studied logic, scholastic philosophy, and theology.  These definitions were presented within the first week of Logic class, the very first class you take when beginning to study scholastic philsophy.

    ------------------

    Scholastic thinkers were extremely precise about what they meant by reasoning, and they distinguished it carefully from related acts of the intellect.
    Here is the standard Scholastic (especially Thomistic) definition, followed by its key distinctions and sources.

    1. Core Scholastic Definition of “Reasoning” (Ratiocinatio)
    Reasoning (ratiocinatio) is:
    Quote
    “The discursive movement of the intellect from known principles to a previously unknown conclusion.”
    In more technical Latin terms (Aquinas, following Aristotle & Boethius):
    Quote
    “Ratiocinari est ex uno in aliud procedere.”
     “To reason is to proceed from one thing to another.”
     (ST I, q.79, a.8)
    So:
    [th]Term[/th]
    [th]Meaning[/th]

    Intellect (intellectus)
    Immediate understanding of a truth

    Reason (ratio)
    The power that moves step-by-step from one truth to another

    Reasoning (ratiocinatio)
    The actual act of that movement



    2. Intellect vs. Reason (A Key Scholastic Distinction)
    This is one of the most important distinctions in Scholastic psychology:
    [th]Faculty[/th]
    [th]Function[/th]

    Intellect (intellectus)
    Grasps truth immediately

    Reason (ratio)
    Discovers truth discursively


    Aquinas explains:
    Quote
    “The intellect knows by simple insight, but reason knows by discourse.”
     (ST I, q.79, a.8)
    Example:
    • Seeing that “The whole is greater than the part”intellect
    • Proving a geometrical theorem step-by-step → reasoning
    So reasoning is not simple knowing—it is stepwise knowing.

    3. Formal Scholastic Definition (Strict Logical Sense)
    In strict logical terms:
    Quote
    Reasoning is the ordered inference of a conclusion from premises according to the rules of logic.
    This is why Scholastics equated proper reasoning with:
    • Syllogism
    • Demonstration
    • Logical inference
    Thus:
    Quote
    Reasoning = valid inferential process from true or assumed principles to a conclusion.

    4. Metaphysical Definition (How Reason Works as a Power)
    From the metaphysical side:
    Quote
    Reason is the potency of the intellect to move from potency to act through logical mediation.
    More simply:
    • Intellect = sees truth
    • Reason = travels to truth

    5. Why Humans Must Reason (But Angels Do Not)
    Aquinas makes an important anthropological claim:
    Quote
    Humans must reason because truth is not naturally fully present to them at once.
    Angels:
    • Know many things immediately
    • Do not reason discursively
    Humans:
    • Must move:
      • From effects → causes
      • From principles → conclusions
      • From experience → universal truth
    Thus:
    Quote
    Reasoning is a sign of intellectual imperfection (not weakness, but limitation).

    6. Scholastic Definition in One Sentence
    Here is a tight, faithful Scholastic definition you can safely quote:
    Quote
    “Reasoning is the discursive act of the intellect whereby, from known truths, it proceeds step-by-step to the knowledge of unknown truths.”
    Or even more formally:
    Quote
    “Reasoning is the ordered intellectual inference of a conclusion from premises.”


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #61 on: December 09, 2025, 05:49:29 PM »
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  • No.  1+1=2 is not reasoning nor logic, but merely the statement of a self-evident truth.  Reasoning refers to the derivation of new propositions from existing ones by the application of logic.  There's no such process involved in 1+1=2, or in the vast majority of mathematics, not until you get into attempting to prove various "theorems" or developing new ones.

    Here's where I accurately summarized the scholastic definitions of terms ... cf. the citations from St. Thomas Aquinas and others in the post above.


    Online Freind

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #62 on: December 09, 2025, 05:52:28 PM »
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  • Again, you keep up with the lies, just so you can refuse to admit that you're an ignorant baboon who have no idea what you're talking about and will keep regurgitating your noxious vomit onto the page rather than admit that you're a clueless moron.

    Okay, here you go:



    Offline Michaelknoxville

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #63 on: December 09, 2025, 06:41:06 PM »
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  • Wow this is off topic but very informative :popcorn: thanks guys! Chill out!!! :fryingpan: What would st Thomas think about the tone in here? I think he would logically conclude you are being unreasonable hahah 

    Offline cassini

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #64 on: December 10, 2025, 05:38:39 AM »
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  • Here's where I accurately summarized the scholastic definitions of terms ... cf. the citations from St. Thomas Aquinas and others in the post above.
    I am confused, didn't St Thomas believe in a global Earth.


    Offline Mat183

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #65 on: December 10, 2025, 08:42:26 AM »
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  • I am confused, didn't St Thomas believe in a global Earth.

    Yes, St. Thomas absolutely did believe in a global Earth.  Let's not let ourselves continue to be gaslit by the miniscule number of flat earth promoters.  And let us recall that there are absolutely no prominent Flat Earthers today.  The deafening silence to my open inquiry on the subject on CathInfo only confirms this.

    Flat-earth promoters sometimes try to claim Aquinas as a flat-earther, but their arguments have no basis in Aquinas’s actual texts. The claims usually fall into a few predictable patterns:
    1. Misreading Aquinas’s use of biblical cosmology
    Some flat-earth promoters assert that because Aquinas took Scripture as authoritative, he must have held a “biblical cosmology” identical to their own.
    However, Aquinas explicitly states that Scripture uses figurative language when describing the physical world (e.g., Summa Theologiae I.1.10). He does not read biblical descriptions of the “firmament,” “the ends of the Earth,” etc., as physical models.
    2. Ignoring Aquinas’s reliance on Aristotelian astronomy
    Flat-earth proponents often downplay or ignore that Aquinas adopted Aristotle’s physics and cosmology nearly wholesale—including a spherical Earth.
    Instead, they claim medieval thinkers were “biblical literalists” who rejected Greek science. This is historically inaccurate and contradicted by Aquinas’s own writing.
    3. Selective quotation from secondary sources
    Sometimes they quote isolated passages from pre-scholastic or non-Aquinas medieval authors (e.g., early Church Fathers with ambiguous language) and imply Aquinas shared their views. They then treat “the medieval Church” as a monolith and incorrectly insert Aquinas into that narrative.
    They do not cite any passage where Aquinas states the Earth is flat—because none exists.
    4. Confusion over Aquinas’s acceptance of geocentrism
    Aquinas accepted geocentrism, as every scholar did before Copernicus.
    Flat-Earth promoters sometimes conflate geocentrism with flat-earth belief, even though the two are logically and historically distinct. Medieval geocentric models—including those Aquinas adopted—assume a spherical Earth.
    5. Claiming that medieval Christians “had” to be flat-earthers
    Some flat-earth advocates rely on the narrative that “the Church hid the truth about the Earth’s shape,” so they retroactively project flat-earth belief onto major Christian thinkers, including Aquinas, to support a conspiracy narrative.
    This is revisionism, not evidence.

    Summary
    Flat-earth promoters claim Aquinas believed in a flat Earth not because of anything Aquinas wrote, but because they:
    • misread biblical language,
    • ignore Aquinas’s clear reliance on Aristotelian spherical-Earth arguments,
    • conflate geocentrism with flat-earth belief, and
    • retrofit their worldview onto historical figures.
    There is no textual evidence that Aquinas held a flat-earth view, and considerable evidence that he accepted Earth’s sphericity.

    **************************************************************************************************************

     Some flat-earth advocates do try to argue that historical references to a “round” or “spherical” Earth actually meant a round, flat disk rather than a sphere. This claim is not based on historical sources but on rhetorical strategies intended to preserve flat-earth interpretations when confronted with ancient or medieval texts.
    Here are the main methods they use and the basis for each:

    1. Exploiting ambiguity of the word “round”
    Many ancient authors described the Earth as “round” (Latin orbis, Greek kyklos).
    Flat-earthers argue that “round” means “circular”, not “spherical,” so historical texts could be referring to a disk.
    Basis they claim:
    • Linguistic ambiguity of “round.”
    Why this fails:
    • Authors like Aristotle, Ptolemy, and Aquinas explicitly argue for three-dimensional curvature, not a 2D circle.
    • They describe phenomena that require a sphere (e.g., curved shadow on the Moon, changing star visibility with latitude).

    2. Misinterpreting medieval diagrams
    Flat-earth promoters sometimes show medieval illustrations that depict the Earth as a circle inside a cosmological diagram.
    They then claim this is proof medieval scholars thought Earth was a disk.
    Basis they claim:
    • Medieval drawings look flat on manuscript pages.
    Why this fails:
    • Those diagrams are symbolic representations, not literal cross-sections.
    • Medieval texts that accompany the diagrams describe Earth as a globus (sphere).
    • Aquinas explicitly follows Aristotle’s spherical model.

    3. Attacking translation differences
    They sometimes claim that words like:
    • sphaera
    • globus
    • orbis terrarum
    could be interpreted as a round, flat form, not necessarily a 3D sphere.
    Basis they claim:
    • Etymological cherry-picking.
    Why this fails:
    • Sphaera and globus are unambiguously three-dimensional in scholastic philosophy.
    • Aquinas uses Aristotelian astronomy exactly as Aristotle intended—a spherical Earth and spherical heavens.

    4. Claiming a conspiracy by “mainstream history”
    A few flat-earth authors argue that historians reinterpret “round” as “sphere” to hide the supposed biblical or medieval “true” flat cosmology.
    Basis they claim:
    • Conspiracy narrative, not evidence.
    Why this fails:
    • Medieval scientific works (Aquinas, Albertus Magnus, Roger Bacon, Renaissance textbooks) all discuss Earth’s curvature, shadow on the Moon, antipodes, and latitude-based star changes—all impossible on a disk.

    Conclusion
    Flat-earthers occasionally argue that “round earth” references actually referred to a flat, circular disk, but this rests on:
    • exploiting ambiguous translations,
    • misreading symbolic medieval art, and
    • ignoring explicit spherical-Earth arguments in primary sources.
    No credible historical, linguistic, or textual evidence supports their reinterpretation.







    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #66 on: December 10, 2025, 09:36:31 AM »
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  • Offline Cera

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #67 on: December 10, 2025, 01:56:12 PM »
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  • One has to wonder if Freind is AI.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #68 on: December 11, 2025, 09:53:27 AM »
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  • Yes, St. Thomas absolutely did believe in a global Earth.

    This is yet another canard.  Godspeed.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Online Freind

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #69 on: December 11, 2025, 11:23:52 AM »
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  • One has to wonder if Freind is AI.

    LOL?

    Online Freind

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #70 on: December 11, 2025, 11:29:55 AM »
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  • This is yet another canard.  Godspeed.

    From Summa Theologica I, Q. 68, A. 1:
    “The astronomer and the physicist both may prove the same conclusion: that the earth, for instance, is round: the astronomer by means of mathematics (i.e. abstracting from matter), but the physicist by means of matter itself.”

    From Summa Theologica I, Q. 1, A. 1, Ad. 2:
    “The reasoning of Aristotle that the stars are spherical (De Caelo II, 4) does not rely on the claimed reason, but on this: that the sphericity of the stars is demonstrated from the fact that they are seen at the same time from different places; which would not be the case if they were not spherical. In the same way, it is demonstrated that the earth is round from the fact that the same stars are not seen from every part of the earth, and that an eclipse of the moon occurs differently for different people.”

    From his Commentary on Aristotle’s De Caelo, Book II, Lecture 28:
    “It is the same with the parts of the earth as with the whole: for since the whole is naturally spherical, the parts also have a natural tendency to form a sphere… Hence it is that the sea, which covers a great part of the earth, is spherical according to the curvature of the earth.”


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #71 on: December 11, 2025, 02:26:11 PM »
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  • From Summa Theologica I, Q. 68, A. 1:
    “The astronomer and the physicist both may prove the same conclusion: that the earth, for instance, is round: the astronomer by means of mathematics (i.e. abstracting from matter), but the physicist by means of matter itself.”

    Nice try.  He didn't write in English, and even if he had, spherical and round are two different things.   Look up the Latin text, examine the possible interpretations, and try again with a better argument.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #72 on: December 11, 2025, 02:31:27 PM »
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  • From Summa Theologica I, Q. 1, A. 1, Ad. 2:
    “The reasoning of Aristotle that the stars are spherical (De Caelo II, 4) does not rely on the claimed reason, but on this: that the sphericity of the stars..."

    So, the stars are spherical, but the earth is round, eh?  Interesting distinction.  Thank you for proving my point that you'd be well-served to look up the Latin, examine and consider the possible translations, and then get back to us.  

    The quoted text actually undermines your argument, although you likely do not and will not ever accept that. Cheers.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #73 on: December 11, 2025, 02:33:27 PM »
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  • From his Commentary on Aristotle’s De Caelo, Book II, Lecture 28:
    “It is the same with the parts of the earth as with the whole: for since the whole is naturally spherical, the parts also have a natural tendency to form a sphere… Hence it is that the sea, which covers a great part of the earth, is spherical according to the curvature of the earth.”

    Latin?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #74 on: December 11, 2025, 04:27:22 PM »
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  • From Summa Theologica I, Q. 68, A. 1:
    “The astronomer and the physicist both may prove the same conclusion: that the earth, for instance, is round: the astronomer by means of mathematics (i.e. abstracting from matter), but the physicist by means of matter itself.”
    Are you sure of your citation?

    This piqued my curiosity, so I went to Ia, Q68, A1, but I don't find these words anywhere???