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Author Topic: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model  (Read 15645 times)

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Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2018, 07:00:30 PM »
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  • You are endorsing the flat earth God created.
    Ha!  The only thing he's "endorsing" is his neurotic fear of Flat Earth.  I have yet to see Neil make an argument against Flat Earth that he could and would defend.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #76 on: January 31, 2018, 07:05:38 PM »
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  • .
    Simple answer:
    .
    All the flat-earthers have to do is address each point in turn. But they won't because they can't.
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    Why can't they?
    .
    Because:
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    There never has been and there never will be any depiction of a Theodolite shooting a level line of sight from a promontory of even a few hundred feet toward the horizon which shows the horizon "rising to the level of the viewer" as flat-earthers keep chanting without any evidence.
    .
    There never has been and there never will be an intelligible explanation for why the full moon faces with its sun-illuminated face toward the earth from high in the sky, from the flat-earth hypothesis which places the sun above a "flat" disc earth at nearly 90 degrees to the line of the moon's light as viewed from anywhere on planet earth.
    .
    There never has been and there never will be any "flat" earth plausible geometry describing how a quarter moon makes the angle it does to the sun (while insisting it and the moon are some 3 thousand miles above the earth) twice each month for all to see.
    .
    There never has been and there never will be any reasonable excuse for the fact that a ship or plane traveling due east (or due west) along the equator does not have to turn right (starboard) or left (port) in order to remain on the equator and due east (or west as the case may be).
    .
    There never has been and there never will be any "flat" earth demonstration of WHY two parallel courses once embarked will in due time collide with each other on the real earth, since they don't do that on the "flat" earth model.
    .
    There never has been and there never will be any reasonable "flat" earth explanation for how any weighted object in a vacuum will consistently be pulled in a perpendicular direction from the horizon line regardless of where on the real earth the experiment is conducted.
    .
    There never has been and there never will be an explanation for the numerous flights of aircraft that pass over or close to Antarctica and traverse a distance too short to be plotted on a "flat" earth model, when many pilots, co-pilots and navigators who routinely fly such courses have and will continue to attest.
    .
    There never has been and there never will be any honest video showing the horizon unable to conceal distant objects beyond the curvature of the earth, even while the refraction of light through the water vapor above a body of water makes it appear otherwise, since the progressive foreshortening of such objects belies the distortion caused by the refraction.
    .
    There never has been and there never will be a seagoing navigator using a sextant and sea charts who can accurately plot his course over a great distance overseas, when he presumes the earth is "flat."
    .
    I can go on.............
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    I'd like to see some proof and sources for this crap!  (I don't think this is original Neil)  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #77 on: February 03, 2018, 09:44:34 PM »
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  • I'd like to see some proof and sources for this crap!  (I don't think this is original Neil)  
    .
    There is plenty more where that came from. 
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    Funny nobody who supports flat-earthism has any argument or substantive response -- just frustration.
    .
    It's okay to be frustrated! Being a flat-earther means living with self-contradiction day in and day out.
    .
    You must enjoy frustration, though. That part doesn't add up.
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    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #78 on: February 04, 2018, 10:04:42 PM »
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  • .
    There is plenty more where that came from.
    .
    Funny nobody who supports flat-earthism has any argument or substantive response -- just frustration.
    .
    It's okay to be frustrated! Being a flat-earther means living with self-contradiction day in and day out.
    .
    You must enjoy frustration, though. That part doesn't add up.
    .
    How about a link to your source Neil? 
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #80 on: February 04, 2018, 10:31:01 PM »
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  • .
    https://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/NY/New%20York/2018-02

    https://www.almanac.com/content/full-moon-february
    That's a cool link Neil, but what's the source for your anti-flat earth arguments?  You seem to be pulling them from somewhere.  How's about giving it up?  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #81 on: February 04, 2018, 11:10:06 PM »
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  • That's a cool link Neil, but what's the source for your anti-flat earth arguments?  You seem to be pulling them from somewhere.  How's about giving it up?  
    .
    I have many years' experience behind me. Maybe you don't, so it's hard for you to imagine that.
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    If you'd like to see more I can provide it, but so far, you have no constructive criticism to offer.
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    There are plenty of astronomers' books on eclipses, for example.
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    Why don't flat-earthers write books on eclipses? Are they unable to find a publisher?
    Or, what is more likely, perhaps they don't understand eclipses and their ignorance would become obvious.
    .
    There's one by Bryan Brewer, 1991, second edition, Eclipse, Earth View, Inc., Seattle, WA., 103 pp., 60 illus. +/-.
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    Is that what you're looking for?
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    Brewer explains many of the finer points of eclipses and his book is a fascinating read. Highly recommended.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #82 on: February 04, 2018, 11:54:23 PM »
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  • .
    Here is a very informative video that was made 6 months in advance of the August eclipse last year.
    .
    All the predicted or expected data that is presented here for over an hour, actually did take place as expected.
    .
    And flat-earthers continue to accuse such presentations as being contrived or unbelievable.
    .
    In the face of such detailed information in advance of the eclipse, how can someone be so incredulous?
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    For flat-earthers, the only thing they're consistent about is their denial of information that conflicts with their fantasy.
    .
    There is no logical reason to doubt the evidence, so it must be all based on emotion.
    .

    .
    The eclipse of August, 2017 is described starting at minute 37.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #83 on: February 10, 2018, 03:17:08 AM »
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  • .
    Here is a very informative video that was made 6 months in advance of the August eclipse last year.
    .
    All the predicted or expected data that is presented here for over an hour, actually did take place as expected.
    .
    And flat-earthers continue to accuse such presentations as being contrived or unbelievable.
    .
    In the face of such detailed information in advance of the eclipse, how can someone be so incredulous?
    .
    For flat-earthers, the only thing they're consistent about is their denial of information that conflicts with their fantasy.
    .
    There is no logical reason to doubt the evidence, so it must be all based on emotion.
    .

    .
    The eclipse of August, 2017 is described starting at minute 37.
    I see.  So you don't think that Flat Earth can predict Eclipses.  I don't know why you think that, but I think you are misinformed.  Flat Earth models can predict Eclipses and have done so for thousands of years.  



    Total Eclipse of the Mind, by Eric Dubay 
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #84 on: February 10, 2018, 08:47:17 AM »
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  • I see.  So you don't think that Flat Earth can predict Eclipses.  I don't know why you think that, but I think you are misinformed.  Flat Earth models can predict Eclipses and have done so for thousands of years.  



    Total Eclipse of the Mind, by Eric Dubay
    I got 30 seconds in and he had already said something that so completely destroyed his credibility there was no point continuing.

    He started of by claiming that Copernicus introduced the ball earth and that Ptolemy's model (which did in fact predict eclipses and moon phases) was a flat earth model.  He uses this absolute falsehood to counter the position that there are no flat earth models that can predict eclipses, etc.

    Ptolemy very clearly taught that the earth is a sphere, the central one in a series of concentric spheres which moved the stars, moon, planets, and sun.  The Amagest includes his proof of the spherical earth:

    Quote
    Now, that also the earth taken as a whole is sensibly spherical, we could most likely think out in this way. For again it is possible to see that the sun and moon and the other stars do not rise and set at the same time for every observer on the earth, but always earlier for those living towards the orient and later for those living towards the occident. For we find that the phenomena of eclipses taking place at the same time, especially those of the moon, are not recorded at the same hours for everyone that is, relatively to equal intervals of time from noon; but we always find later hours recorded for observers towards the orient than for those towards the occident. And since the differences in the hours is found to be proportional to the distances between the places, one would reasonably suppose the surface of the earth spherical, with the result that the general uniformity of curvature would assure every part's covering those following it proportionately. But this would not happen if the figure were any other, as can be seen from the following considerations.

    For, if it were concave, the rising stars would appear first to people towards the occident; and if it were flat, the stars would rise and set for all people together and at the same time; and if it were a pyramid, a cube, or any other polygonal figure, they would again appear at the same time for all observers on the same straight line. But none of these things appears to happen. It is further clear that it could not be cylindrical with the curved surface turned to the risings and settings and the plane bases to the poles of the universe, which some think more plausible. For then never would any of the stars be always visible to any of the inhabitants of the curved surface, but either all the stars would both rise and set for observers or the same stars for an equal distance from either of the poles would always be invisible to all observers. Yet the more we advance towards the north pole, the more the southern stars are hidden and the northern stars appear. So it is clear that here the curvature of the earth covering parts uniformly in oblique directions proves its spherical form on every side. Again, whenever we sail towards mountains or any high places from whatever angle and in whatever direction, we see their bulk little by little increasing as if they were arising from the sea, whereas before they seemed submerged because of the curvature of the water's surface.
    https://bertie.ccsu.edu/naturesci/Cosmology/Ptolemy.html#4

    Ptolemy wrote this in the second century and it became the dominant model in the West, including Christendom throughout the middle ages.  It began to be challenged with the introduction of the Copernican model, but the majority of scientists (and the Church) sided with the Ptolemaic until the introduction of Newtonian physics made a heliocentric model more plausible.

    An interesting side-note: St. Robert Bellarmine, had an interest in astronomy.  Early in his career, in his "Louvain lectures" he challenged the Ptolemaic model with the idea that the heavenly bodies were not moved by spheres but by some other means.  (He did not challenge the idea the earth is a sphere, of course.)  It is interesting that he is often portrayed as anti-science, when he was in fact at the cutting edge of it. 

    Anyhow, can anybody produce a genuine flat earth model that predicts eclipses?  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #85 on: February 10, 2018, 09:21:27 AM »
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  • So I was curious about who this Eric Dubay is that was being used as an authority to support flat earth so I went to his website to see what he had to say.

    I was appalled.  This man is clearly some sort of New Age neo-pagan.  He promotes recreational drugs, reincarnation, etc.  I had to stop reading when I came across an article on the Eucharist.  It was so blasphemous and sickening that I cannot bear to repeat what he said. It is not very surprising that he flat out lied (pun intended) about the Ptolemaic model.

    Flat-earthers here have been repeatedly trying to discredit the spherical earth by associating with pagans and secular humanists.  It would be highly inconsistent to use Eric Dubay as an authority, even if he weren't a total liar. 


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #86 on: February 10, 2018, 09:23:37 AM »
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  • Ptolemy very clearly taught that the earth is a sphere, the central one in a series of concentric spheres which moved the stars, moon, planets, and sun.  The Amagest includes his proof of the spherical earth
    Ptolemy claims globe earth on page one of the Almagest, but he offers no PROOF. 
    Ptolemy simply claims earth cannot be flat because he doesn't understand how day & night would work if it was. That is NOT a proof.
    Also, Pliny the Elder wrote in his Natural History that the masses believed in flat earth and only a learned few believed in globe.
    The commentary also says the Church taught flat earth as religious dogma,  thereby ensuring its spread.
    These facts are always ignored by Mr. Garrison. 

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #87 on: February 10, 2018, 09:29:08 AM »
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  • So I was curious about who this Eric Dubay is that was being used as an authority to support flat earth so I went to his website to see what he had to say.

    I was appalled.  This man is clearly some sort of New Age neo-pagan.  He promotes recreational drugs, reincarnation, etc.  I had to stop reading when I came across an article on the Eucharist.  It was so blasphemous and sickening that I cannot bear to repeat what he said. It is not very surprising that he flat out lied (pun intended) about the Ptolemaic model.

    Flat-earthers here have been repeatedly trying to discredit the spherical earth by associating with pagans and secular humanists.  It would be highly inconsistent to use Eric Dubay as an authority, even if he weren't a total liar.
    Nobody cares, Garrison. 
    Go find some other reason to clutch your pearls in your outrage.
    There are people of all types of religious belief who know the earth is flat:
    Atheists, pagans, Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Catholics.

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #88 on: February 10, 2018, 05:45:32 PM »
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  • I got 30 seconds in and he had already said something that so completely destroyed his credibility there was no point continuing.

    He started of by claiming that Copernicus introduced the ball earth and that Ptolemy's model (which did in fact predict eclipses and moon phases) was a flat earth model.  He uses this absolute falsehood to counter the position that there are no flat earth models that can predict eclipses, etc.

    Ptolemy very clearly taught that the earth is a sphere, the central one in a series of concentric spheres which moved the stars, moon, planets, and sun.  The Amagest includes his proof of the spherical earth:
    https://bertie.ccsu.edu/naturesci/Cosmology/Ptolemy.html#4

    Ptolemy wrote this in the second century and it became the dominant model in the West, including Christendom throughout the middle ages.  It began to be challenged with the introduction of the Copernican model, but the majority of scientists (and the Church) sided with the Ptolemaic until the introduction of Newtonian physics made a heliocentric model more plausible.

    An interesting side-note: St. Robert Bellarmine, had an interest in astronomy.  Early in his career, in his "Louvain lectures" he challenged the Ptolemaic model with the idea that the heavenly bodies were not moved by spheres but by some other means.  (He did not challenge the idea the earth is a sphere, of course.)  It is interesting that he is often portrayed as anti-science, when he was in fact at the cutting edge of it.

    Anyhow, can anybody produce a genuine flat earth model that predicts eclipses?  
    You should watch the entire video.  

    How about The Chinese Jayne?  

    "The universal belief in a flat Earth is confirmed by a contemporary Chinese encyclopedia from 1609 illustrating a flat Earth extending over the horizontal diametral plane of a spherical heaven.[55]

    In the 17th century, the idea of a spherical Earth spread in China due to the influence of the Jesuits, who held high positions as astronomers at the imperial court.[128]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Middle_East:_Islamic_scholars

    "Needham has described the ancient Chinese as the most persistent and accurate observers of celestial phenomena anywhere in the world before the Islamic astronomers.[3]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_astronomy#Solar_and_lunar_eclipses

    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases On A Flat Earth Model
    « Reply #89 on: February 10, 2018, 05:50:58 PM »
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  • We’ve been predicting eclipses for over 2000 years. Here’s how.


    "Imagine. You are an ancient human and your reliable and faithful sun suddenly and unexpectedly goes dark. This terrifies you. You think, 'What if it never comes back? Oh gods, WHAT HAVE WE DONE TO DESER...oh, it's back. Phew.' But then, over the years, it keeps happening. You begin to lose trust in the sun's loyalty and start recording when these events happen. Centuries go by and eventually enough of a pattern has built up that early civilizations are able to predict when these crazy events might occur.

    “The idea that it's not just random is pretty incredible,” says Jonathan Seitz, an associate professor of history at Drexel. “The Mesopotamians figured it out first in part because they had a habit of writing things down. They were doing this because they felt that these things had meaning—they weren't just random natural phenomena.”

    With records stretching back to about 700 BC, Mesopotamians were able to determine the length of a Saros Cycle—the interval between when the Moon, Earth, and Sun line up for an eclipse. A cycle happens once every 18 years, 10 days (11 days on leap years), and eight hours, tracing a shadow on the Earth. That extra eight hours means that the position of the eclipse shifts over time as the Earth rotates.

    Though ancient astronomers wouldn’t have been able to monitor all iterations of a Saros cycle (eclipses can occur in the middle of oceans or uninhabited areas), they were able to figure out parts of the timing well enough to know when one might strike. But at this point in history, they just knew the when. Why and how would have to come much later....

    ...China developed their own eclipse predictions at around the same time as people in the Mediterranean, paralleling the discovery of the patterns of eclipses thanks to their long history of record-keeping. There is evidence that the Mayans also had ways of measuring eclipses, but virtually all their records were brutally destroyed by conquistadors during the European invasion of the Americas.

    Despite greater understanding of eclipses, most cultures still saw them as bad omens. Interpretations (slowly) started to change with the advent of telescopes, which revealed the topography of the Moon and allowed eclipse predictions to get much more precise." 

    https://www.popsci.com/people-have-been-able-to-predict-eclipses-for-really-long-time-heres-how
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."