Author Topic: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World  (Read 1195 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2018, 12:25:16 AM »
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  • .
    From the 3-part scale diagram, the distance from earth to Jupiter is more than 3 times the distance from earth to sun.

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    If Jupiter were as close to earth as our moon is this is what it would look like:
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    The moon makes a 1/2 degree arc in the sky but Jupiter at the same distance (240,000 miles) would make a TWENTY degree arc. 
    That's because Jupiter is around 40 times the diameter of the moon.
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    The appearance of Jupiter in our sky at the current distance of the moon would be extremely unsettling.
    It would fill about half the sky from most vantage points where only a portion of the sky is visible, like between trees or buildings.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #31 on: April 06, 2018, 01:07:30 AM »
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  • .
    The point of this relative scale business is to answer the questions about the earth's shadow falling on the moon during an eclipse or why the full moon could be visible instead of being overshadowed by the earth.
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    http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/09/18/how-the-earth-moves-and-how-do-we-know/

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    The point is, the earth's shadow usually falls well above or well below the moon. It's only on rare occasions that the dark or inner shadow of the earth passes over the face of the moon. When it does, it's frequently only a partial coverage, that is, a partial lunar eclipse. At that time we don't see much change. That's what a so-called blood moon is, a partial eclipse when atmospheric conditions on the earth produce a reddish haze that covers the moon. But the moon is not in total shadow of the earth's umbra at that time.
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    The moon's shadow (umbra or "inner shadow" in this diagram) is much smaller than the moon, but the earth's umbra ("inner shadow") is only slightly smaller than the earth. This is due to the greater apparent size of the earth when viewed from the moon -- it would fill a space in the sky several times the space that the sun fills since the earth is much closer to the moon than the sun is (about 200 times closer). The earth's shadow tapers down to a smaller size toward the moon and beyond the moon at a more gradual rate than does the shadow of the moon toward the earth and beyond the earth.
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    In this diagram perhaps you can imagine how the moon's orbiting plane does not keep the same orientation to the earth-sun line (on the ecliptic), and therefore the 5-degree angle that offsets the moon's orbital plane around the earth from the sun's orbital plane around the earth (ecliptic) is constantly changing. That doesn't mean the angle between the two planes changes, but that the DIRECTION TO THE SUN changes, so sometimes it's 5 degrees but usually it's less than 5 degrees. The angle of the moon-earth line to the ecliptic plane constantly changes as the moon orbits in that tilted plane which is always at a constant 5 degrees from the ecliptic plane. 5 degrees UP is the most the moon ever gets (as in diagram B), and then it decreases as the sun's path through the sky continues and the moon's orbit around the earth continues, for the moon's 5-degree angle doesn't usually measure 5 degrees with regards to the direction where the sun currently is located. The moon passes through the vertical plane between the earth and sun, but that's only for an instant, then the next day the moon passes by the earth-sun plane at a LOWER angle and so on until it reaches the maximum of 5 degrees below the earth (somewhat depicted in diagram A -- imagine the moon being down there when it is in the vertical plane between earth and sun that passes through Ecliptic North/Ecliptic South -- if it were there in this diagram the moon would be hidden behind the earth).
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    In other words, that hoop representing the moon's orbit remains at 5 degrees offset from the ecliptic plane but it wobbles as it were like a plate twirling around as it settles on the table, or like a spinning hoop oscillates as it is coming to rest on a horizontal table (one cycle each day) as the sun goes through the sky every day. If I can find a video of this, I'll post it.
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    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #32 on: April 09, 2018, 03:31:00 AM »
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  • I have another problem with the official explanation of Lunar Eclipses.  According to NASA,




    "A total lunar eclipse happens when the whole moon enters Earth's shadow. Some sunlight still reaches the moon, but first it goes through Earth's atmosphere. The atmosphere filters out most of the sun’s blue light, so the moon looks red.

    In this time-lapsed image, the moon changes color as it moves through Earth’s shadow."

    https://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/k-4/stories/total-lunar-eclipse

    My problem is how does the sunlight passing through the Earth's atmosphere cover the entire Moon.  Since ALL of the light dimly illuminating the Moon a shade of red, must pass through the Earth's atmosphere to make the Moon red, how is it enough sunlight to cover the entire Moon, if it is just passing through the atmosphere?  It seems like it shouldn't be big enough.  Particularly since, if the Earth's atmosphere is supposed to be so gargantuan, then it should be affecting the Moon's color all the time, but we don't see that.  So, what's up with that?  

    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #33 on: April 09, 2018, 03:39:03 AM »
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  • Again, just look at this illustration from NASA



    Look how huge the Penumbra is.  How could the Moon look full outside of the Penumbra?  How could you be able to view the illuminated side of the Moon?  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #34 on: April 09, 2018, 03:43:14 AM »
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  • You can see from the picture above the affect of a massive Sun, in the "Globe Earth" model:  it shrinks the Umbra.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #35 on: April 09, 2018, 03:48:47 AM »
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  • You can see, if the eclipse happened in the Penumbra, that it should happen with every Full Moon, but if it occurs in the Umbra, then it shouldn't be visible.  Lots of problems with the round/globe earth model.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #36 on: April 10, 2018, 10:17:28 PM »
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  • I have another problem with the official explanation of Lunar Eclipses.  According to NASA,




    "A total lunar eclipse happens when the whole moon enters Earth's shadow. 
    .
    It's not the whole moon being covered that makes it a total lunar eclipse. Any part of the moon that has the earth's umbra (inner shadow) falling on it is in total lunar eclipse. But since the earth's umbra is so large -- it's bigger than the moon, see below -- it is often positioned such that the entire moon is in the darkest shadow. That never happens on the earth, where the moon's shadow is never big enough to cover all the earth.
    .
    Even so, when you are in a total solar eclipse (as I have been, and have millions of Americans this past August) in the center of the axis of totality, it is entirely dark, just like night time, in all directions, as far as the eye can see, which further supports the spheroid earth model because if the earth were "flat" then we would be able to see sunlight in the clouds at a great distance from totality.
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    However, from a very high vantage point, such as viewed from an aircraft in flight, the sunlight in the distant horizon can be seen because the plane is high enough to push the limits of the earth's curvature.
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    Quote
    Some sunlight still reaches the moon, but first it goes through Earth's atmosphere. The atmosphere filters out most of the sun’s blue light, so the moon looks red.

    In this time-lapsed image, the moon changes color as it moves through Earth’s shadow."

    https://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/k-4/stories/total-lunar-eclipse

    My problem is how does the sunlight passing through the Earth's atmosphere cover the entire Moon.  Since ALL of the light dimly illuminating the Moon a shade of red, must pass through the Earth's atmosphere to make the Moon red, how is it enough sunlight to cover the entire Moon, if it is just passing through the atmosphere?  It seems like it shouldn't be big enough.  Particularly since, if the Earth's atmosphere is supposed to be so gargantuan, then it should be affecting the Moon's color all the time, but we don't see that.  So, what's up with that?  

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    Nobody said the sun's light that hits the moon is "just passing through the atmosphere." During a full moon, there is NO light on the moon passing through the earth's atmosphere. But during a lunar eclipse, there is a TRANSITION period where some is, and some isn't. Just before the moon turns all copper colored, the sun's light is not first going through the earth's atmosphere, then when the moon turns reddish brown, that's when all the light shining on it is that color because of the earth's atmosphere. Wait a while and the red disappears. It's not an all-or-nothing situation. It changes minute by minute.
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    You sound like you've never seen a lunar eclipse the way you keep shifting to extremes.
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    Your problem is you paid no attention to the diagram I already posted just before you asked the question that it already answered:
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    It's the lower of the two images that applies for lunar eclipses.
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    Notice the penumbra of the earth (outer shadow) is thin (lower image) -- whereas the penumbra of the moon is much larger (upper image) in proportion to the moon's umbra (inner shadow).
    That is due to the proportional distances of the earth's diameter and distance from the sun, and the moon's diameter and distance from the sun, together with the sun's diameter. The moon is proportionally much smaller compared to it's solar distance than the earth is, therefore the moon's penumbra is thicker than the earth's.
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    For example, the apparent diameter of the moon as viewed from earth is very close to the apparent diameter of the sun. But as viewed from the moon, the apparent diameter of the earth would be about 3 times the apparent diameter of the sun, so obviously the earth's shadow over the moon covers a much larger area than the moon's shadow does over the earth.
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    See how big the earth's shadow is when the moon goes through it?
    Since the sunlight passing through the earth's atmosphere gets scattered, the shadow that reaches the moon is not sharp-edged.
    And only in SOME conditions does the moon take on a red glow, which is called "blood moon" (even though it's more like a copper color, not blood, but "blood" is more exciting apparently, so it's more popular -- sometimes popular demand rules the language).
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #37 on: April 10, 2018, 10:36:53 PM »
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  • .
    The image you provided is not proportionally correct, and therefore leads to misunderstanding.
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    .               .................Relative scale is NOT correct!........................
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    The angles of sunlight are all wrong because the sun's great distance would never make shadows looking like that.
    Which is why I posted the image that I did, which shows the proper proportions:
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                                                     "Relative scale is correct!"
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    You can see from the picture above the affect [effect] of a massive Sun, in the "Globe Earth" model:  it shrinks the Umbra.  
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    You can't see much of ANYTHING from the image you posted, because the scale is all wrong and it therefore is unsuitable for understanding the particulars of a lunar eclipse. What you have posted there is only for superficial, non-scientific enjoyment a.k.a., entertainment. 
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    Which is why I'm saying, pay attention to accurate information, or else you're attacking a STRAW MAN.

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #38 on: April 10, 2018, 10:51:07 PM »
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  • You can see, if the eclipse happened in the Penumbra, that it should happen with every Full Moon, but if it occurs in the Umbra, then it shouldn't be visible.  Lots of problems with the round/globe earth model.  
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    All wrong. Based on misunderstanding and relying on bad diagrams and information.
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    The lunar eclipse happens partially in the penumbra, but that is only a small slice of the sky around the moon.
    The earth's penumbra measures less than two degrees as viewed from the moon, while the moon's orbit is offset by 5 degrees.
    That's why it doesn't happen with every full moon.
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    Furthermore, the earth's penumbra landing on the moon isn't obvious from earth.
    Just as the moon's penumbra falling on the earth, when viewed from satellites, hardly shows up at all.
    What you can see from the ISS or other LEO views is a fuzzy smudge with a dark spot (maybe!) in the middle.
    The dark spot is the umbra, and it's pretty small from LEO.
    One needs to be a lot closer to the earth's surface to get the full impact of a total solar eclipse.
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    When the total lunar eclipse occurs over the entire moon (when it's all in the umbra) the moon is still visible, but less obviously, due to the diffused light that scatters around the edge of the earth through the earth's atmosphere. So of course, it's visible.
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    The "problems" you have are due to your penchant to look for difficulties where there are none to be found.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #39 on: April 10, 2018, 11:07:46 PM »
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  • .
    You have to be very careful drawing conclusions from diagrams.
    Here is a diagram I posted above, which says the earth and moon are accurately proportional, but that's only the case in the LOWER IMAGE, labeled "B". It is NOT the case in image A.
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    The more accurate picture I provided above, depicts the moon located at about 15 earth diameters away from earth.
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    In this less accurate one, the moon's orbit is shown at less than two earth diameters. See the difference?
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    See how the moon is easily outside the earth's penumbra in image B.
    The penumbra, remember, is smaller than the earth's diameter. 
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    If the moon's 5-degree orbital angle were shown in the image below, the moon would be outside the edge of the picture!
    Since the moon displaces one-half a degree from earth's vantage point, 5 degrees translates to 10 moon diameters.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #40 on: April 21, 2018, 09:08:26 PM »
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  • .
    Tomorrow, Sunday April 22nd, 2018, will be a great opportunity to learn about the moon and the sun, firsthand.
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    At 2:46 pm Pacific Time (UTC -7) the First Quarter moon appears in the sky for all to see.
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    It will be daylight in all of America so you won't have any excuses.
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    The sun will be high in the afternoon sky and the moon will be rising at about the 11 o'clock position.
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    Literally, it will be the 10:46 o'clock position. Remember, we're on Daylight Savings Time.
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    When the moon enters its First Quarter phase, the angle it makes to the sun is very important.
    This angle only lasts a few minutes as the sun moves away from the moon and the angle constantly increases.
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    It's important because at that moment, the moon occupies the 90-degree corner of a right triangle.
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    The earth is at the other large angle, close to 90 degrees, but slightly less.
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    The sun is therefore at the third angle, a much smaller one.
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    All triangles have three angles and three sides. That's what makes them triangles.
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    A right triangle has special properties that allow us to estimate the length of its sides when the angles are known.
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    Since we know that the moon's angle, (between earth and sun) at the moment of the quarter moon, is 90 degrees, we can thereby estimate the relative distances from earth to sun compared to earth to moon.
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    We get this opportunity twice each month, but sometimes it happens at night when the sun and moon are not visible in the sky.
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    Tomorrow, they'll both be in plain view for all to see.
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    Incidentally, they'll both be in plain view in the northern hemisphere as well as the southern hemisphere.
    So people in Chile or Argentina or Brazil or the Galapagos Islands will be able to see the same First Quarter moon.
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    The moon will appear exactly the same from all over the earth, which would be impossible if the earth were "flat."
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    Anywhere on earth the moon is visible from, tomorrow, at the time it becomes a Quarter moon, it will appear the same.
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    There is no "flat-earth model" capable of rendering this phenomenon which is why flat-earthers abhor the concept of a "model."
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    It's easy to measure the angle between the moon and the sun, without hurting your eyes.
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    All you need is a rectangular block of styrofoam like you get from the packing box your globe came in.
    Oh, right, you don't have a globe.
    Well, maybe you like pizza.
    If you don't throw away your square pizza box, it makes a great device for measuring the angle we want to measure here.
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    You only need to hold the pizza box (or styrofoam block) up so that one side of it aligns with the moon.
    Look along the side of the box so it points in line with the moon.
    Then adjust the side on the right until it points at the sun.
    You don't have to look at the sun.
    All you have to look at is the shadow the sun makes on the side of the pizza box.
    When the sun is aligned with the side of the box, the sunlight will be just skimming over the rough surface of the cardboard (or of the styrofoam block).
    .
    Once you get these two line-ups going together, you can see how much the difference is from the 90-degree angle on the box.
    You might find it easier to use a fence post or a car roof to steady the box while you look.
    Estimate how much less than 90 degrees the moon's angle is toward the sun.
    Remember the moon's diameter in the sky is 1/2 degree.
    So if the pizza box's edge barely covers the moon while the other edge points at the sun,
    then the moon's angle to the sun is one quarter of one degree less than 90 degrees.
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    Or if the edge of the pizza box splits the moon in half, then the angle between sun and moon is 90 degrees.
    BTW if you take too long and do this measurement at 2:59 pm instead of at 2:46 pm, you could easily see the pizza box splitting the moon in half.
    So you'd be best off practicing today or tomorrow well in advance of 2:46 pm so you won't have to waste precious time.
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    If you are a flat-earther, you can perhaps feel privileged to know that no flat-earther has yet made a single post on CathInfo reporting of the results of this empirical measurement.
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    So you can be the FIRST!!
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    Ironically, there have been flat-earther posts whining and moaning about "the lack of empirical evidence that the globalists have provided," but still, they have refused to try this very simple empirical experiment.
    Why do they refuse? They never manage to explain that.
    They also refuse to be honest about why they refuse to participate.
    Notice while they're busy complaining about lack of empirical evidence, here we are providing empirical evidence.
    They know that if the results of their measurement shows them something they don't want to know, they'll be upset.
    And you know, flat-earthism is all about feelings, and it's nothing about reality!
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #41 on: June 28, 2018, 01:38:31 AM »
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  • In the past, flat-earthers have complained that the diagrams offered for their edification are of no use because they are "not to scale," and that this not being to scale is a matter of great anxiety for them. They presuppose that someone is trying to deceive them by using untruthful diagrams or whatever. The fact of the matter is, a diagram that is to scale showing these things is a diagram that cannot be seen on you computer screen, because the images of the sun and planets and especially the moon are too small to be noticeable, that is, they would be smaller than one pixel. Well, the sun might be two or three pixels. But it would nonetheless be something that doesn't show up obviously. Here is a good attempt to depict the difficulty. The picture shows three scales. The whole point is for these bodies to be VISIBLE to the viewer, that means YOU. The scale on top (first panel) shows a large blue earth and a smaller yellow moon at its relative distance and diameter, to scale. They're blue and yellow, not green, therefore they are to scale, as the header describes. That's it for diameters being to scale! The second panel shows the sun's diameter to scale but not the planets. The third panel has only DISTANCE to scale. Even the sun is a green dot. The reason for that is, if the diameters were to scale (in the second and third panels) the planets and moons would not be visible because they would be too small. If they were to show the sun to scale with the top panel, the sun would be the size of a basketball, unable to fit on the page. The scale in the middle (second panel) shows the sun to scale and then enlarged dots for the planets Mercury, Venus and Earth, all at their relative distances to scale from the sun. The planets are enlarged because if their diameters were to scale also, they would be too small, smaller than one pixel, and therefore would not be visible in this format. Notice the two moons of Mars are not visible, as they are much too small. Also, they have "Moon" labeled near Earth but it's too small to be obvious. I tried greatly enlarging this from the source page image, and found there is a sort of shadowy green blur on the right side of Earth which is likely their moon image. In other words, even when they attempt to depict the Moon with a green dot it's not really visible. But again, remember the scale distance and diameter of Earth--Moon is depicted TO SCALE in the first panel, directly above the second panel.  Source

    Scale Model of the Solar System - In the following diagrams, all sizes and distances to scale, unless an object is too small to be visible, in which case a green dot is used.
    .
    Here is a diagram showing how the "flat" earth view of the same moon from two positions on "flat" earth works out:
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Moon's Phases in the Real (spheroid) Earth World
    « Reply #42 on: June 28, 2018, 01:55:11 AM »
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  • .
    In this diagram, two people are standing on the "flat" earth, separated by about 3,000 miles, comparable to one person in Massachusetts and one in Southern California. They both are looking at the same moon, which is currently a FULL moon, and it is located directly overhead in Nebraska, or halfway between the two observers. Don't worry about where the sun is, because that's not part of this diagram:
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    .
    The large moon image on the left is how the same moon (small moon in the center where the arrows are pointing) would have to appear to the viewer in Massachusetts if it were to be a FULL moon, and the large moon on the right is how the same moon would have to appear to the viewer in California, if it were to be a FULL moon.

    But notice that the small moon in the center provides the illuminated side of the full moon, while the large moon on the left provides the view of the BACK SIDE of the moon that we never see, so it should be all dark when the moon is full when viewed from earth!

    Likewise the large moon on the right provides a view of the moon that we DO see, but when the center small moon appears FULL in Nebraska, the right 30% of the California view ought to be in the dark, too, similar to the Massachusetts view! (but only partially dark)

    The two enlarged views are shown fully illuminated so we can identify the details -- if they were partially in the dark we wouldn't be able to see the whole picture as this shows.

    The whole point of this diagram is to show how we would be seeing the full moon from different locations on a "flat" earth, but in fact, we don't see this at all. The full moon looks like the SAME FULL MOON from anywhere on the real, spherical, earth.

    Not on the "flat" earth, and that's because the earth isn't flat.
    .
    Flat-earthers really get annoyed with simple thinking like this, because in order to succumb to flat-earthdown-syndrome, you have to put your thinking cap on the shelf and forget about it.                     FUGGETABOUDIT!  
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