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The Firmament
« on: August 20, 2022, 07:24:45 PM »

The Firmament in Scripture

"And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters."
[Genesis 1:6]
"And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so."
[Genesis 1:7]
"And God called the firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day."
[Genesis 1:8]

"And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:"
[Genesis 1:14]
"To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done."
[Genesis 1:15]

"And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth."
[Genesis 1:17]

"God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven."
[Genesis 1:20]

"Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy dwelling place, and do all those things, for which that stranger shall call upon thee: that all the people of the earth may learn to fear thy name, as do thy people Israel, and may prove that thy name is called upon on this house, which I have built."
[3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:43]

"Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy throne, their prayers, and their supplications, and do judgment for them:"
[3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:49]

"The Lord is my firmament, my refuge, and my deliverer. My God is my helper, and in him will I put my trust. My protector and the horn of my salvation, and my support."
[Psalms 17:3]

"The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands."
[Psalms 18:2]


"The Lord is a firmament to them that fear him: and his covenant shall be made manifest to them."
[Psalms 24:14]

"Be thou unto me a God, a protector, and a place of strength: that thou mayst make me safe. For thou art my firmament and my refuge."
[Psalms 70:3]

"And there shall be a firmament on the earth on the tops of mountains, above Libanus shall the fruit thereof be exalted: and they of the city shall flourish like the grass of the earth."
[Psalms 71:16]

"Praise ye the Lord in his holy places: praise ye him in the firmament of his power."
[Psalms 150:1]

"The firmament on high is his beauty, the beauty of heaven with its glorious shew."
[Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 43:1]

"And over the heads of the living creatures was the likeness of the firmament, as the appearance of crystal terrible to behold, and stretched out over their heads above."
[Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:22]
"And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other, every one with two wings covered his body, and the other was covered in like manner."
[Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:23]
19

"For when a voice came from above the firmament, that was over their heads, they stood, and let down their wings."
[Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:25]

"And above the firmament that was over their heads, was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of the sapphire stone, and upon the likeness of the throne, was a likeness as of the appearance of a man above upon it."
[Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:26]

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Firmament
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2022, 08:17:49 PM »
Indeed, one can argue about globe vs. flat, but it's absolutely clear that the Church Fathers unanimously understood the firmament mentioned by Sacred Scripture as a solid thing that separated actual physical waters from the atmosphere (the sky) and the earth and then the waters below the earth.  NONE of them believed that it was a metaphor for something much less "firm", i.e., the vacuum of space, or the air, or the Van Allen Belt, or any such stupidity that Modernist have used to explain away the firmament into a metaphor.

Dr. Sungenis certainly does recognize this, but his explanation is some hypothesis (that I must say I do not completely understand) of there being some infinitely dense quality to space?  Or something like that.  Perhaps someone can clarify what he means there.  I heard it only briefly mentioned in his debate with Rob Skiba.


Re: The Firmament
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2022, 08:36:02 PM »
The interesting thing is that, psychologically, it is much more comfortable to think that God is just there on the other side of the roof of the world, than to think that He sits where the almost infinite blackness ends.

It is nearly impossible to imagine how the Ascension or the Assumption happened if we believe the modern science version of the universe.

I feel much closer to God if I imagine a solid, close firmament. To imagine the huge black universe is a kind of lonely and agnostic experience.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Firmament
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2022, 08:53:50 PM »
The interesting thing is that, psychologically, it is much more comfortable to think that God is just there on the other side of the roof of the world, than to think that He sits where the almost infinite blackness ends.

It is nearly impossible to imagine how the Ascension or the Assumption happened if we believe the modern science version of the universe.

I feel much closer to God if I imagine a solid, close firmament. To imagine the huge black universe is a kind of lonely and agnostic experience.

Indeed.  What does the Ascension really "mean" with the modern cosmology?  Did Our Lord float up into ... the sky, the clouds, the vacuum of space?  Was it just some kind of a show that He was going up when in reality He was merely crossing over into some alternate dimension?  Of course, FEs also point out that the Ascension/Assumption are rather curious from the perspective of a globe earth as well.  From the perspective of the Antipodeans, Our Lord was descending into Heaven and ascending into Hell (after His death on the Cross).

That also is the FE argument about a small, enclosed cosmos, rather than this infinite expanse of space ... vis-a-vis why the Luceferian rulers of this world would try to perpetrate such a hoax ... because think of how much more difficult it would be to be an atheist if people believed that we lived in an enclosed world with the firmament above us, rather than being a tiny dot in the huge expanse of the universe.

Re: The Firmament
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2022, 09:10:49 PM »
Indeed.  What does the Ascension really "mean" with the modern cosmology?  Did Our Lord float up into ... the sky, the clouds, the vacuum of space?  Was it just some kind of a show that He was going up when in reality He was merely crossing over into some alternate dimension?  Of course, FEs also point out that the Ascension/Assumption are rather curious from the perspective of a globe earth as well.  From the perspective of the Antipodeans, Our Lord was descending into Heaven and ascending into Hell (after His death on the Cross).

That also is the FE argument about a small, enclosed cosmos, rather than this infinite expanse of space ... vis-a-vis why the Luceferian rulers of this world would try to perpetrate such a hoax ... because think of how much more difficult it would be to be an atheist if people believed that we lived in an enclosed world with the firmament above us, rather than being a tiny dot in the huge expanse of the universe.
And it is not only about cosmology. This question kind of reaches in to the metaphysical realm.

I think that Heliocentrism, and to a lesser extent, Globearthism lead inevitably to believe that Heaven is in a kind of different dimension. I would be as if God created two different worlds: the one on which we are now, and another for when we die.

We have two words in English, sky and Heaven, but in many languages, including Latin, as far as I know, the word caelum means both the sky and Heaven, the place where saints are. It makes no sense to think that "caelum" is not in the sky. Scripture wouldn't make sense if it was like this.

There is so much talk of ascending and descending, including in the Old Testament. It is hard to believe that people from five thousand years ago would see "cealum" or "ascension" as having a figurative meaning.

God speaks figuratively in many different ways in the Holy Writ. It is illogical to think that He would use always the same figures from the very first to the very last book in the Bible only when the subject is cealum/heaven/sky.