Author Topic: The Earth is Flat (Read 28163 times)

Miser Peccator · « **Reply #135 on:** October 21, 2023, 08:15:30 AM »

Quote from: Tradman on October 21, 2023, 08:10:36 AM

I'm not sure how that book proved anything whatsoever. Does the mass production of model globes prove earth is a globe? Even if the entire world read it and half believed it, what would that prove except the church had enemies that try to undermine belief in Scripture.

But what if most of the learned men of the Church believed in the Arian heresy...that would prove it to be true, right?

or what if they believed in VII ecuмenism....surely you would concede, right?

or that the Muslim god, Allah, is the same as the Blessed Trinity?

or how about evolution? I mean these are the brightest and the best of the Holy Roman Empire!

You think you know better? LOL :P

Jaynek · « **Reply #136 on:** October 21, 2023, 08:34:35 AM »

Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on October 21, 2023, 05:32:21 AM

Whether it’s been debunked or not, the point that she is lending support to is that all (or nearly all) learned men believed that the Earth is a globe in shape and not flat or a snow globe type system.

Another work that supports this point is Historia rerum ubique gestarum, written by Pius II before his papacy (1458-1464). He begins this work by explaining “Almost everyone agrees that the shape of the world [= universe] is spherical [rotundam]; they likewise agree about this concerning the Earth.”

An interesting thing about this work is that Christopher Columbus (who did not attend university) used it as the basis of his calculations and his personal copy of it with his notes still exists.

Speaking of Christopher Columbus, even the anti-Catholics who dishonestly asserted that Columbus was opposed by ignorant stupid Catholics when he claimed the earth to be a globe, don't deny that Catholics believed in a globe earth after his famous journey. According to their false narrative, Catholics were forced to believe it because Columbus had proven it. (That, of course, is nonsense. Educated Catholics had already reached a scientific consensus on globe earth centuries before that time.) Anyhow, even these dishonest anti-Catholics had to admit that virtually everyone believed the earth to be a globe at the time of Galileo.

Tradman · « **Reply #137 on:** October 21, 2023, 08:50:16 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 21, 2023, 08:34:35 AM

Another work that supports this point is Historia rerum ubique gestarum, written by Pius II before his papacy (1458-1464). He begins this work by explaining “Almost everyone agrees that the shape of the world [= universe] is spherical [rotundam]; they likewise agree about this concerning the Earth.”

An interesting thing about this work is that Christopher Columbus (who did not attend university) used it as the basis of his calculations and his personal copy of it with his notes still exists.

Speaking of Christopher Columbus, even the anti-Catholics who dishonestly asserted that Columbus was opposed by ignorant stupid Catholics when he claimed the earth to be a globe, don't deny that Catholics believed in a globe earth after his famous journey. According to their false narrative, Catholics were forced to believe it because Columbus had proven it. (That, of course, is nonsense. Educated Catholics had already reached a scientific consensus on globe earth centuries before that time.) Anyhow, even these dishonest anti-Catholics had to admit that virtually everyone believed the earth to be a globe at the time of Galileo.

This is the worse attempt at reasoning while trying to justify a failed and heretical cosmic model that one could imagine. Most people attend the Novus Ordo Mass foisted on them in the 60's and 70's. Does that make it right or good? Does it make the larger percentage of Catholics geniuses? We all agree that spherical earth has been pushing its way into our consciences for centuries and has become widely accepted. We also know the Fathers of the Church, Scripture, Popes and saints fought it for centuries.

Jaynek · « **Reply #138 on:** October 21, 2023, 08:51:36 AM »

Quote from: Tradman on October 21, 2023, 08:10:36 AM

I'm not sure how that book proved anything whatsoever.

It shows that it is incorrect to assume that the condemnation of Galileo somehow includes the idea of globe earth. The people who issued the condemnation were educated Catholics who almost certainly believed what they had been taught at university, i.e. the earth is a globe. They would not have intended to condemn something that they themselves believed.

Belief in globe earth was wide-spread, probably universal at that time. If there were anything theologically objectionable about this, why would Church authorities be silent on the subject while condemning the errors of Galileo?

Tradman · « **Reply #139 on:** October 21, 2023, 08:53:51 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 21, 2023, 08:51:36 AM

It shows that it is incorrect to assume that the condemnation of Galileo somehow includes the idea of globe earth. The people who issued the condemnation were educated Catholics who almost certainly believed what they had been taught at university, i.e. the earth is a globe. They would not have intended to condemn something that they themselves believed.

Belief in globe earth was wide-spread, probably universal at that time. If there were anything theologically objectionable about this, why would Church authorities be silent on the subject while condemning the errors of Galileo?

No it doesn't prove any sort of truth. It just proves the author fell for the lie and pushed the Pythagorean falsehood further by publishing nonsense.

Quo vadis Domine · « **Reply #140 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:00:43 AM »

Quote from: Miser Peccator on October 21, 2023, 07:52:08 AM

Since most people won't watch the video I posted...

That "bulge" thingy simply don't make sense whether you are an ancient Greek, a Catholic university professor in 1200 or whatnot:

Here we are at the top of the "bulge"

You have to look down to see the horizon.

Here is the 1200 AD Catholic professor looking out at the horizon:

Yeah, he would have to look down to see it. Have you ever had to look down to see the horizon?

I know he is a super duper Catholic professor from the 12th cent with special "knowledge" and "enlightenment" from the ancient Greeks and maybe he has super powers I don't have

but this has never been my experience. Have you experienced this?

And well, let's just say he is lower down on

"the bulge"

well, this is what he would see when looking

straight out towards the horizon:

Man, that 12th cent Catholic professor needs to rethink his bulge theory and do a bit of math and all that and figure out that

they ain't no bulge

and they ain't no curve.

If you want to hear further analysis of this

COMMON SENSE

then watch this video starting at 14:32 about the

STUPID BULGE theory

https://www.bitchute.com/video/YNPh1fjo7HaD/

or watch the whole thing.

It's hard to accept we have been lied to, but indeed we have and it's better to accept the obvious truth than to continue to believe really dumb lies. smh

The point being made is that whether they (learned people) were right or wrong, they believed that the Earth was a sphere (round, bulge). What Jaynek posted gave a great degree for support to this. It’s description was not FE or a snow globe.

Jaynek · « **Reply #141 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:03:29 AM »

Quote from: Tradman on October 21, 2023, 08:50:16 AM

We all agree that spherical earth has been pushing its way into our consciences for centuries and has become widely accepted. We also know the Fathers of the Church, Scripture, Popes and saints fought it the entire way.

That is not something "we" know. Some Fathers wrote that the Earth was flat. St. Augustine, however, taught that Scripture is silent on the subject. This was the view adopted by the Church and incorporated in Magisterial teaching. Catholics treated the shape of the earth as a matter of science, not faith, from the time of St. Bede onward. This is most of the history of the Church. Virtually all learned people, including Saints, accepted the science which taught that the earth is a globe. Nobody was fighting it.

(I have presented the supporting citations for all of this in previous posts. This is just a summary.)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #142 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:08:34 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 21, 2023, 08:34:35 AM

Another work that supports this point is Historia rerum ubique gestarum, written by Pius II before his papacy (1458-1464). He begins this work by explaining “Almost everyone agrees that the shape of the world [= universe] is spherical [rotundam]; they likewise agree about this concerning the Earth.”

Apart from the fact that we really need the Latin here for the terms translated as "world" and "Earth", which are often equivocally translated into English, this is probably true by the time in question ... due almost entirely to the revival and renewed prominence of Aristotle in the scholastic era.

But ... so what? They didn't have the equipment and resources to conduct real experiments. They were still backing Aristotle's argument from the "ships disappearing over the horizon" ... even though a pair of modern binoculars could debunk this. We have cheap binoculars made in China that are more powerful than Galileo's telescope.

Last time I checked, universal consensus about a purely scientific matter by "learned men" does not enjoy any kind of infallibility ... as you're fond of pointing out with your (mis)interpretation of Providentissimus Deus regarding the Church Fathers.

Where the Church Fathers differ is that they based their cosmology on a reading of Sacred Scripture. While one could claim that they were divided regarding the shape of the earth, and while I agree that there isn't any unequivocal passage in Sacred Scripture that necessarily points to a flat earth, the sense of Sacred Scripture is clear, as the Church Fathers universally read it according to its plain sense, that the surface of the earth is covered by a solid firmament (not some metaphor for "space"), a firmament that is solid enough to keep actual physical waters from the surface of the earth, various "windows" on which were opened so that the waters above contributed to the Great Flood. There's no other way to read Sacred Scripture, and all the Church Fathers did so read it.

And I absolutely dispute the false allegation that the Church Fathers predominantly believed that the earth was a ball.

Quo vadis Domine · « **Reply #143 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:13:22 AM »

Quote from: Tradman on October 21, 2023, 08:10:36 AM

I'm not sure how that book proved anything whatsoever. Does the mass production of model globes prove earth is a globe? Even if the entire world read it and half believed it, what would that prove except the church had enemies that try to undermine belief in Scripture.

At this point we’re just discussing what people believed through the centuries, not FE vs GE.

The point is that most (if not all) learned men believed that the Earth was/is a globe shape and not flat or snow globe shaped. What Jaynek posted gave testimony to this.

Miser Peccator · « **Reply #144 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:17:36 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 21, 2023, 08:13:00 AM

Whether or not it makes sense is irrelevant to the point. This work represents the scientific consensus of its time. It shows us what Catholics were taught at university and what virtually all educated people believed. And since the universities were essentially Church-run institutions, it also shows that the Church had no problem with people taking this position.

Well the thing I love most about the Catholic Faith is that

it makes sense!

So yeah, making sense is pretty relevant. The Catholic Faith is logical.

The "bulge theory" of "bending, curving water" is not. There is NO science to support that.

Water does not bend or curve and is always level.

Fill a bucket half way and tip it over and you will see,

it always REMAINS LEVEL.

Unless I'm mistaken. Can you provide some scientific evidence for bending, curving bodies of water?

No. There is none. Bodies of water never curve or bend.

Never.

Ever.

Not possible.

Not verifiable.

Not seen.

Not scientifically proven.

And it would be easily proven if it were possible.

Frozen bodies of water would prove the "curve".

They would show the "bulge".

But no.

Never ever happened.

Nobody has ever proven it.

Ever.

So unfortunately a bunch of people have erroneously believed this blatant lie

including Catholic Universites!

That's sad and unfortunate.

As for Columbus, he set out to explore the "globe" with his SEXTANT

which doesn't work on a ball earth.

So whatever the narrative and source

he had to travel according to flat earth coordinates.

That's reality.

Unfortunately the Church has allowed heresies and gnosticism to run rampant again and again while trying to stamp them out.

Believing in those heresies and lies does not help anyone.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #145 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:19:14 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 21, 2023, 09:03:29 AM

That is not something "we" know. Some Fathers wrote that the Earth was flat. St. Augustine, however, taught that Scripture is silent on the subject.

Did you read the context of that quote from St. Augustine? He was talking about whether the "earth" (aka world) was shaped like a sphere, a hemisphere, or a cone / tent ... all of which clearly referred to the shape of the firmament. In fact, at one point, he was arguing why the sphere shape could be tenable for the shape of the firmament. Some were claiming that it had to be shaped like a tent, or somewhat conical, because a passage in Scripture likened it (the firmament) to a tent. He countered by using the example of a ball, which was a leather material shaped like a sphere. He was discussing the shape of the earth in a manner that included the firmament.

He absolutely did not hold that Sacred Scripture was silent about the existence of a firmament that kept water from the face of the earth. At another time, he discussed whether the world was a sphere or hemisphere because of the scientific contention that the dense material of earth would sink in the cosmos to the bottom, due to its higher density ... holding this was tenable. But in all cases, they viewed the earth as submerged in actual physical water, and enclosed in a firmament to keep the water out.

If the ground we walked on were spherical, then the firmament in relation to the earth would have to be a concentric sphere surrounding the entire earth, with a pocket of air (the first heaven) in between, and there's no evidence anyone believed that. In fact, at that point there would have been another debate as to why the bottom of the sphere didn't come into contact with the outer spherical firmament, because the density of the matter within would cause it to sink (as they did not believe in gravity) ... but there's no such debate. All of that leads to the conclusion that they maintained the fundamental Jєωιѕн cosmology.

Those who believed that the firmament is spherical would have this picture above but with the firmament going 360 degrees around the entire thing rather than just 180 degrees.

Tradman · « **Reply #146 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:21:35 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 21, 2023, 09:03:29 AM

That is not something "we" know. Some Fathers wrote that the Earth was flat. St. Augustine, however, taught that Scripture is silent on the subject. This was the view adopted by the Church and incorporated in Magisterial teaching. Catholics treated the shape of the earth as a matter of science, not faith, from the time of St. Bede onward. This is most of the history of the Church. Virtually all learned people, including Saints, accepted the science which taught that the earth is a globe. Nobody was fighting it.

(I have presented the supporting citations for all of this in previous posts. This is just a summary.)

Sadly, you haven't presented supporting citations for anything true, let alone all of what you claim. You just post words from enemies of the Church and declare it gospel. You also refuse to either read or address anything contrary to your Pythagorean view that was long ago condemned by the Church.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #147 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:25:31 AM »

Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on October 21, 2023, 09:13:22 AM

At this point we’re just discussing what people believed through the centuries, not FE vs GE.

The point is that most (if not all) learned men believed that the Earth was/is a globe shape and not flat or snow globe shaped. What Jaynek posted gave testimony to this.

And his point was ... so what? That was probably true in the West due to the revival of Aristotle after the scholastic era. And?

Apart from where the Church Fathers are interpreting Sacred Scripture, it means nothing. Most "learned men" today believe that the earth moves. Most "learned men" for a couple centuries believed that the sun was the center of universe ... and that it was stationary. No "learned men" today believe this anymore. Most "learned men" at the time of St. Robert Bellarmine believed that the earth was stationary and that the sun moved around it. Not only that, but the CHURCH condemned heliocentrism as heretical. Very few "learned men" still believe this today. I am reminded of a statement made by one of the Church Fathers about how there's a new scientific theory that pops up every couple years, only to be discredited shortly later and replaced by another.

Really, the only "learned men" that matter here are 1) the Church and 2) the Church Fathers when unanimously interpreting Sacred Scripture. Outside of matters related to the faith, mainstream "science" has been something of a joke throughout history.

Miser Peccator · « **Reply #148 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:30:10 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on October 21, 2023, 09:25:31 AM

And his point was ... so what? That was probably true in the West due to the revival of Aristotle after the scholastic era. And?

But they were "learned" and it was "most" of them. smh :P

Thed0ctor · « **Reply #149 on:** October 21, 2023, 09:33:11 AM »

Did the father's teach the firmament was solid keeping literal waters out as a matter of faith? Did they need to? Not sure if there are any stipulations on how the fathers agree on something in general vs something pertaining to the faith.

Author Topic: The Earth is Flat (Read 28163 times)

Miser Peccator

Re: The Earth is Flat

Jaynek

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Tradman

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Jaynek

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Tradman

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Quo vadis Domine

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Jaynek

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Ladislaus

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Quo vadis Domine

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Miser Peccator

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Ladislaus

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Tradman

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Ladislaus

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Miser Peccator

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Thed0ctor

Re: The Earth is Flat