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Author Topic: The Church censors flat earth criticism  (Read 1609 times)

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Offline Smedley Butler

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Offline Smedley Butler

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Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2018, 09:50:40 AM »
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  • Hismsjesty:

    What page is your OP Martinez quote on?


    Offline happenby

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    Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
    « Reply #32 on: October 15, 2018, 10:53:59 AM »
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  • I will answer here (in green font) since it is the largest number of your contentions and since you aren't really addressing any issues anyway.  Just in order to answer for anyone wondering.  

    The David Bressan article was an accurate summary of Dante's views as described in the Divine Comedy which I knew because I have read it.  You cited Dante as an example of a person you identified as flat earther merely because he mentioned Jerusalem being the centre of the earth.  The fact that he believed the earth is a sphere shows that one cannot equate "Jerusalem is the centre" with "the earth is flat" as you have been doing.  Some people, like Dante, while believing the physical shape of the entire earth was a sphere, called Jerusalem the centre because it was at the centre of the three known continents Europe, Asia, and Africa.  They thought it was the centre of the land mass ("land" is also terra in Latin) on the spherical earth.  You need more evidence than a mention of Jerusalem as centre to establish a person as a flat earther.

    The Wiki article was also an accurate summary of Dante.  Which means we have Bressan against Wiki.  But I've already shown that. You're dodging the main point that many believed earth is flat with Jerusalem in the middle, and some people include Dante to be a Jerusalem-center guy even if Bressan doesn't.  Perhaps, like you, it isn't in him to see the point of what is being said.  Ultimately, it is impossible for earth to be a ball with Jerusalem in the center, so that teaching most certainly does point to the obvious: that earth is a plane rather than a ball, with Jerusalem in the center.  You say "they" thought it was the center of some land mass at the time.  Nothing whatsoever even remotely suggests it was conjecture, since St. Jerome insisted on us knowing it was a reality based in Scripture and the Church taught the same for over a 1000 years.  In case you forgot, St. Jerome is a biblical scholar of the highest order and Bressan is nobody.  Seems your priorities are dictated by modern pagan science before Godly teachers. But that is the reason why it matters to get to the heart of what is being said, as well as who you believe.       

    "Who discredits the Fathers and Scripture?" you ask.  You do, every time you twist their words to make them fit the theory you impose on them.  You do when you ignore St. Basil teaching "the servant of God, Moses is silent as to shapes; he has not said that the earth is a hundred and eighty thousand furlongs in circuмference; he has not measured into what extent of air its shadow projects itself while the sun revolves around it, nor stated how this shadow, casting itself upon the moon, produces eclipses. He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? "

    I do not twist anyone's words as the Fathers say them clearly enough to be understood.  Not only that, they are in agreement and all talk about earth in the same way.  I def copy and pasted wrong since St. Clement was indeed responsible for that one quote you pointed out and we already know he was a flat earther. But having read St. Basil, and knowing he is also a flat earther, my point stands correct, and here saint and quote are provided (below).  You used one lone quote to suggest Basil was not a flat earther, in order to dismiss reaching the truth in favor of what you prefer to believe.  St. Basil shows here that he believed and taught flat earth and you'd do well to read the Saint's writings before you contradict him and miss his point.  The source for Basil is 
    The Hexaemeron

    Homily III
    by St. Basil the Great

    4. "And God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters front the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament." Before laying hold of the meaning of Scripture let us try to meet objections from other quarters. We are asked how, if the firmament is a spherical body, as it appears to the eye, its convex circuмference can contain the water which flows and circulates in higher regions? What shall we answer? One thing only: because the interior of a body presents a perfect concavity it does not necessarily follow that its exterior surface is spherical and smoothly rounded. Look at the stone vaults of baths, and the structure of buildings of cave form; the dome, which forms the interior, does not prevent the roof from having ordinarily a flat surface. Let these unfortunate men cease, then, from tormenting us and themselves about the impossibility of our retaining water in the higher regions."

    St. Basil covers many flat earth concepts in other chapters, but since globe promoters don't even address the firmament and pretend it (and the water above it) doesn't exist, we have a flat earther talking about the firmament dome above which is a vast amount of water and complaining about the men who torment Catholics with nonsense about the impossibility of retaining water above earth.  And isn't that what moderns believe?  They don't believe in the firmament, or the water above, they believe in balls shoot around in outer space!   
     

    St Basil is talking about people like you when he refers to this as vanity and says "
    It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis."

    St. Basil's quote you provide above proves beyond a shadow of a doubt he's talking about people like you who distort the meaning of Scripture because he defends flat earth science.


    A Father of the clearly teaches that Scripture is for spiritual edification and it is wrong to look for cosmology in it and you ignore him.  You dismiss him with "suggesting he didn't really care is ridiculous because we all know it really does matter." When a Father teaches something you don't like, you are perfectly happy to decide that you know better.

    But ignoring these matters is what you're suggesting in pointing to his quote.  You're saying "Don't bother". You're suggesting his quote means that Scripture has no answers on this subject, or that it doesn't matter.  In fact, we know St. Basil weighed in on the subject in the Hexaemeron and explained quite a bit, which proves you missed his points entirely. 

    Again, these are fallacious words spoken in haste as it is a fact that St. Basil defended 

    Well, I am going to take St. Basil's words to heart and treat this topic as the way he says to.  I should not be posting on this and giving this unedifying topic an appearance of importance that it does not deserve.  

    Again, as seen above, St. Basil never intended for us to deny what Scripture IS trying to tell us as he explains it in the Hexaemeron and everything he says there is proving a literal interpretation of Scripture as well as a flat earth. 

    I have seen for myself how unedifying and divisive it is.  While taking my most recent  break from this topic, I had my first encounter with Smedley Butler on a topic on which we agreed.  As I recall, it was something about family and women.  More than the details of the discussion, I remember how it felt to finally interact with him as a my fellow Catholic for the first time after months of hostility and frustration.  I want to be at peace with my fellow Catholics, not embroiled in pointless controversies.

    This subject is only divisive if one ignores the Father's consensus on Scripture or ignore what it is they are telling us simply because one does not agree with them.  They are consistent with each other, although each has a different aspect of the teaching on creation in order to enlighten about the mysteries of what is going on in our metaphysical world.  Thank goodness for these great men and their beautiful words!  Pretending that the Fathers and Scripture aren't teaching us anything about creation is what is divisive.

    God bless you all.
    God bless you too.

    Offline happenby

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
    « Reply #34 on: October 16, 2018, 01:04:24 AM »
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  • .
    Nonsense, the specialty of flat-earthdom syndromers.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.