Author Topic: The Church censors flat earth criticism (Read 1614 times)

Jaynek · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2018, 08:56:04 PM »

Quote from: happenby on October 14, 2018, 08:40:02 PM

St. Basil was a full on flat earther..

No knowledgeable person considers St. Basil to have been a flat earther. This illustrates why one should not use flat earther sources on which Church Fathers held that position.

happenby · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:09:12 PM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 14, 2018, 08:56:04 PM

No knowledgeable person considers St. Basil to have been a flat earther. This illustrates why one should not use flat earther sources on which Church Fathers held that position.

Seems you are without information. Flat earth typology relating the earth to the tabernacle continued throughout the centuries by the Fathers and St. Basil's quote assures us he believed the same.

Reflection on Biblical typology and the flat earth: The Fathers of the Church taught that Jerusalem is at the center of the world, as revealed in Scripture. We find that the earth is a 'type' of Christ Himself. Christ is the center and summit of the spiritual world and Jerusalem is the center and summit of salvation history in the physical world. This typology extends even to the architecture of Churches reflected in their domes which are microcosms of the firmament. Stained glass windows reflect the windows of the firmament. Pillars represent a FOUNDATION as seen in 1 Sam. 2:8 – “For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and on them he has set the world.” Fathers extend all this typology to the tabernacle, which was made by Moses to reflect the form of the earth. Wikipedia explains: "The cosmos created in Genesis 1 bears a striking resemblance to the Tabernacle in Exodus 35–40, which was the prototype of the Temple in Jerusalem and the focus of priestly worship of Yahweh; for this reason, and because other Middle Eastern creation stories also climax with the construction of a temple/house for the creator-god, Genesis 1 can be interpreted as a description of the construction of the cosmos as God's house, for which the Temple in Jerusalem served as the earthly representative." Consider that God spoke and creation came to be. Just like God spoke and Jesus came forth from His mouth, Jesus is the Word of God and earth reflects this when it came into being. An insight to this is summed up by Caesarius of Heisterbach this way, "As the heart in the midst of the body, so is Jerusalem situated in the midst of our inhabited earth." The effect on mapmakers in medieval times reveals the mind of the Church at the time since men drew maps with Jerusalem at the center of the world.
So one has to ask himself, "How can Jerusalem be at the center of world if the earth is a globe?"
From historian Andrew Dickson White:
The book of Ezekiel speaks of Jerusalem as in the mid-
dle of the earth, and all other parts of the world as set
around the holy city. Throughout the " ages of faith " this
was very generally accepted as a direct revelation from the
Almighty regarding the earth's form. St. Jerome, the great-
est authority of the early Church upon the Bible, declared,
on the strength of this utterance of the prophet, that Jeru-
salem could be nowhere but at the earth's centre; in the
ninth century Archbishop Rabanus Maurus reiterated the
same argument ; in the eleventh century Hugh of St. Vic-
tor gave to the doctrine another scriptural demonstration ;
and Pope Urban, in his great sermon at Clermont urging
the Franks to the crusade, declared, "
Jerusalem is the middle point of the earth "; in the thirteenth century
an ecclesiastical writer much in vogue, the monk Cesarius of Heisterbach,
declared, "As the heart in the midst of the body, so is Jerusalem situated
in the midst of our inhabited earth," —
"so it was that Christ was crucified at the centre of the earth."

Dante accepted this view of Jerusalem as a certainty,
wedding it to immortal verse; and in the pious book
of travels ascribed to Sir John Mandeville, so widely read
in the Middle Ages, it is declared that Jerusalem is at the
centre of the world, and that a spear standing erect at the
Holy Sepulchre casts no shadow at the equinox.
Ezekiel's statement thus became the standard of ortho- doxy to early map-makers. The map of the world at Hereford Cathedral, the maps of Andrea Bianco, Marino Sanuto. and a multitude of others fixed this view in men's minds, and doubtless discouraged during many generations any scientific statements tending to unbalance this geographical centre revealed in Scripture.*

happenby · « **Reply #17 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:15:45 PM »

The veil St. Basil speaks of is the firmament, a tell-tale staple in the geocentric flat earth and otherwise excluded in the globe models, but Basil's statement also reveals his understanding of the typology regarding the veil of the tabernacle and earth being a macrocosm of the house of God as Basil, Cosmas and Severian teach, earth is like a two story house with heaven being the upper story, the firmament dividing as a veil with the earth below that.

Jaynek · « **Reply #18 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:19:20 PM »

Andrew Dickson White has been discredited as a historian. He distorted facts in order to support his thesis that bad backward religion was in conflict with good progressive science.

Saying that Jerusalem is the center of the world is not the same a believing the earth is flat. Both Dante and Sir John de Mandeville thought the earth was a sphere.

happenby · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:32:12 PM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 14, 2018, 09:19:20 PM

Andrew Dickson White has been discredited as a historian. He distorted facts in order to support his thesis that bad backward religion was in conflict with good progressive science.

Saying that Jerusalem is the center of the world is not the same a believing the earth is flat. Both Dante and Sir John de Mandeville thought the earth was a sphere.

Not even. ADW is well known and lauded for his historical accuracy. His sources are spot on and no one has ever taken issue with them. What our Protestant ADW does distort, is the fact that earth is flat, and he spends a good portion of his efforts to discredit the Fathers of the Catholic Church using their actual quotes, in order to make them look stupid for believing earth is flat. It's his paraphrasing, not his sources that are distortions.
If Jerusalem is at the center of the earth and earth is a globe, then Jerusalem is at the core of a molten iron ball earth along with modern placement of hell. Even to the most ignorant of people it becomes obvious that Jerusalem being at the center of the world means earth cannot possibly be a globe. And the typologies, teachings and explanations offered by the Fathers of the Church show that the literal interpretation of Scripture necessarily reveals the earth is flat.

Jaynek · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:33:27 PM »

Quote from: happenby on October 14, 2018, 09:15:45 PM

The veil St. Basil speaks of is the firmament, a tell-tale staple in the geocentric flat earth and otherwise excluded in the globe models, but Basil's statement also reveals his understanding of the typology regarding the veil of the tabernacle and earth being a macrocosm of the house of God as Basil, Cosmas and Severian teach, earth is like a two story house with heaven being the upper story, the firmament dividing as a veil with the earth below that.

St. Basil did not make the statement that you are attributing to him. It was by Clement of Alexandria, the actual author of The Mystic Meaning of the Tabernacle. Although using that quote as a support for flat earth doesn't make much sense whoever said it.
https://biblehub.com/library/clement/the_stromata_or_miscellanies/chapter_vi_the_mystic_meaning_of.htm

happenby · « **Reply #21 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:34:24 PM »

Nice to have you back, Jaynek

happenby · « **Reply #22 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:41:15 PM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 14, 2018, 09:33:27 PM

St. Basil did not make the statement that you are attributing to him. It was by Clement of Alexandria, the actual author of The Mystic Meaning of the Tabernacle. Although using that quote as a support for flat earth doesn't make much sense whoever said it.
https://biblehub.com/library/clement/the_stromata_or_miscellanies/chapter_vi_the_mystic_meaning_of.htm

Both believed the same thing, (as all the Fathers did) and both are quoting that same belief. The language of the Fathers who taught flat earth teach the literal interpretation of Scripture never to describe a globe. Their concepts and phrasing are all necessarily flat earth revealing and often flat out deny the possibility of earth being a globe. But then, the indoctrinated never see through the veil because they do not listen to the Fathers, Scripture or consider the Church's previous actions against the pagan sorcerers promoting the globe, but prefer the modern version of global atheism and evolution that NASA promotes.

Jaynek · « **Reply #23 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:46:10 PM »

Quote from: happenby on October 14, 2018, 09:32:12 PM

If Jerusalem is at the center of the earth and earth is a globe, then Jerusalem is at the core of a molten iron ball earth along with modern placement of hell. Even to the most ignorant of people it becomes obvious that Jerusalem being at the center of the world means earth cannot possibly be a globe.

Here is the explanation of what Dante meant when he said that Jerusalem was the centre of the earth.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2016/07/18/the-geological-features-that-inspired-hell-in-dantes-divine-comedy/#14e50a337279

Dante imagined Hell like an inverted cone, with its circles gradually becoming smaller nearer to Earth's core. Each circle was dedicated to a sin and the sin's related punishment. This image is based on calculations of Greek philosophers, like Eratosthenes of Cyrene or Claudius Ptolemy, who argued that Earth is a sphere. Hell, as part of earth, would have to be cone-shaped. Dante even gives an exact value of Earth's radius of 3,250 miles (it's actually 3,959 miles).

The cone, according to Dante, formed when Lucifer, the fallen angel, fell to Earth. The impact of the Fall was so great that it even reshaped Earth's surface. Continents were uplifted on the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere lowered and was covered by the sea (Dante didn't know about Australia and Antarctica).
In Dante's writing, only Mount Purgatory can be found in the south. Purgatory, together with the holy city of Jerusalem, forms an axis passing through Earth, with Lucifer's belly as center of Earth and the universe. This is an allegoric image, showing Lucifer is damned as far as possible away from the sun and the divine light.

Jaynek · « **Reply #24 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:49:44 PM »

Quote from: happenby on October 14, 2018, 09:41:15 PM

Both believed the same thing, (as all the Fathers did) and both are quoting that same belief.

You have not yet given any evidence to support your assertion that St. Basil believed this.

happenby · « **Reply #25 on:** October 14, 2018, 09:59:34 PM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 14, 2018, 09:46:10 PM

Here is the explanation of what Dante meant when he said that Jerusalem was the centre of the earth.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2016/07/18/the-geological-features-that-inspired-hell-in-dantes-divine-comedy/#14e50a337279

Dante imagined Hell like an inverted cone, with its circles gradually becoming smaller nearer to Earth's core. Each circle was dedicated to a sin and the sin's related punishment. This image is based on calculations of Greek philosophers, like Eratosthenes of Cyrene or Claudius Ptolemy, who argued that Earth is a sphere. Hell, as part of earth, would have to be cone-shaped. Dante even gives an exact value of Earth's radius of 3,250 miles (it's actually 3,959 miles).

The cone, according to Dante, formed when Lucifer, the fallen angel, fell to Earth. The impact of the Fall was so great that it even reshaped Earth's surface. Continents were uplifted on the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere lowered and was covered by the sea (Dante didn't know about Australia and Antarctica).
In Dante's writing, only Mount Purgatory can be found in the south. Purgatory, together with the holy city of Jerusalem, forms an axis passing through Earth, with Lucifer's belly as center of Earth and the universe. This is an allegoric image, showing Lucifer is damned as far as possible away from the sun and the divine light.

Ok, so some guy named David Bressan comes along and forwards his own personal opinion and you take it as gospel? Just so that we have David Bressan against Wikipedia? Who cares about Bressan and Dante anyway? It isn't as though Dante was the only one listed who believed Jerusalem is at the center of the world because we know several others to include Ezekiel and St. Jerome who say its true. There's no need to try to dig up minutia written by menials in order to discredit the Fathers and Scripture. Who does that?

hismajesty · « **Reply #26 on:** October 15, 2018, 04:55:45 AM »

Good find on the globus meaning happenby. Yes it seems that they would have used sphaera if they really wanted to be specific.

But I'm open to being wrong on that.

In any case to answer Jayne.

Jayne, the significance of this is not necessarily that flat earth is of faith, or that the Church was flat earth (though I think it does show that). But what it shows at the very least, is that you CANNOT attack the flat earth and be a good Catholic.

Please stop perverting the Fathers. We give quotes, you give assertions, and only have St. Basil with a very vague quote.

Markus, the majority of the Fathers were flat earth. See here
and references given here http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition

It was not unanimous it seems, but enough to show that it is temerious to question it. And can in the future be used to define it as doctrine.

hismajesty · « **Reply #27 on:** October 15, 2018, 05:11:01 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 14, 2018, 06:33:50 PM

The Congregation, therefore, thought that, in the passage containing the reference to flat earth, Copernicus was treating his ideas as truth rather than a hypothesis. We can see they are right in the sentences immediately preceding the mention of Lactantius: "Perhaps there will be babblers who claim to be judges of astronomy although completely ignorant of the subject and, badly distorting some passage of Scripture to their purpose, will dare to find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent of despising their criticism as unfounded." It was not because Copernicus belittled flat earth. On the contrary, it was for treating his theory as if it were an established truth like the earth being a sphere.

No Jayne. He is attacking those who make unfounded, uninformed attacks on him, and is saying that these attacks are unfounded. He is not saying that his opinion is the absolute truth here.

In the same book which I just finished, I read that Cardinal Bellarmine wrote to the Jesuits in relation to the Galileo affair asking them questions about astronomy and Galileo's claims. This shows that the Church does not want to make uninformed attacks and Copernicus was in a certain way right to be annoyed about that.

Jaynek · « **Reply #28 on:** October 15, 2018, 05:16:58 AM »

Quote from: happenby on October 14, 2018, 09:59:34 PM

Ok, so some guy named David Bressan comes along and forwards his own personal opinion and you take it as gospel? Just so that we have David Bressan against Wikipedia? Who cares about Bressan and Dante anyway? It isn't as though Dante was the only one listed who believed Jerusalem is at the center of the world because we know several others to include Ezekiel and St. Jerome who say its true. There's no need to try to dig up minutia written by menials in order to discredit the Fathers and Scripture. Who does that?

The David Bressan article was an accurate summary of Dante's views as described in the Divine Comedy which I knew because I have read it. You cited Dante as an example of a person you identified as flat earther merely because he mentioned Jerusalem being the centre of the earth. The fact that he believed the earth is a sphere shows that one cannot equate "Jerusalem is the centre" with "the earth is flat" as you have been doing. Some people, like Dante, while believing the physical shape of the entire earth was a sphere, called Jerusalem the centre because it was at the centre of the three known continents Europe, Asia, and Africa. They thought it was the centre of the land mass ("land" is also terra in Latin) on the spherical earth. You need more evidence than a mention of Jerusalem as centre to establish a person as a flat earther.

"Who discredits the Fathers and Scripture?" you ask. You do, every time you twist their words to make them fit the theory you impose on them. You do when you ignore St. Basil teaching "the servant of God, Moses is silent as to shapes; he has not said that the earth is a hundred and eighty thousand furlongs in circuмference; he has not measured into what extent of air its shadow projects itself while the sun revolves around it, nor stated how this shadow, casting itself upon the moon, produces eclipses. He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? "

St Basil is talking about people like you when he refers to this as vanity and says "It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis."

A Father of the clearly teaches that Scripture is for spiritual edification and it is wrong to look for cosmology in it and you ignore him. You dismiss him with "suggesting he didn't really care is ridiculous because we all know it really does matter." When a Father teaches something you don't like, you are perfectly happy to decide that you know better.

Well, I am going to take St. Basil's words to heart and treat this topic as the way he says to. I should not be posting on this and giving this unedifying topic an appearance of importance that it does not deserve.

I have seen for myself how unedifying and divisive it is. While taking my most recent break from this topic, I had my first encounter with Smedley Butler on a topic on which we agreed. As I recall, it was something about family and women. More than the details of the discussion, I remember how it felt to finally interact with him as a my fellow Catholic for the first time after months of hostility and frustration. I want to be at peace with my fellow Catholics, not embroiled in pointless controversies.

God bless you all.

hismajesty · « **Reply #29 on:** October 15, 2018, 05:51:10 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on October 15, 2018, 05:16:58 AM

Well, I am going to take St. Basil's words to heart and treat this topic as the way he says to. I should not be posting on this and giving this unedifying topic an appearance of importance that it does not deserve.

I have seen for myself how unedifying and divisive it is. While taking my most recent break from this topic, I had my first encounter with Smedley Butler on a topic on which we agreed. As I recall, it was something about family and women. More than the details of the discussion, I remember how it felt to finally interact with him as a my fellow Catholic for the first time after months of hostility and frustration. I want to be at peace with my fellow Catholics, not embroiled in pointless controversies.

God bless you all.

*sniff, sniff*

A tear is rolling down my cheek.

That was beautiful Jayne.

St. Basil didn't have the same certainty as we do now with cameras being able to show us objects beyond the horizon. He yielded to a small doubt momentarily. If you make that your motto, it is very foolish.

And I take it from your lack of response that you accept my points made in my previous points. Thank you. It is always good to see some humility in globe earthers.

Author Topic: The Church censors flat earth criticism (Read 1614 times)

Jaynek

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happenby

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happenby

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Jaynek

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happenby

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Jaynek

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happenby

Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism

happenby

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Jaynek

Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism

Jaynek

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happenby

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hismajesty

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hismajesty

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Jaynek

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hismajesty

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