Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Test GE and FE  (Read 26965 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Meg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6791
  • Reputation: +3468/-2999
  • Gender: Female
Re: Test GE and FE
« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2023, 10:09:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The issue with this video being definitive is that you have the confounding factor of glare. Notice that when the sun gets closer to the horizon in the video, it not only gets relatively smaller, but it also changes shape (becomes more uniformly round), and also gets a lot more sharp-edged. When it appears to get "bigger" higher in the sky, this increased diameter may not represent the true apparent increase in diameter, but the glare of the sun's light on the camera lens or other components of the optical equipment, as well as glare from clouds, dust etc. This creates a diffuse "fringe" of light around the sun, making it look bigger than it actually is.

    When the sun is lower in the sky, the argument would be it is shining through the atmosphere etc. edge-on, which filters the light, eliminates the glare, and produces the correct diameter, while if it is higher in the sky, the glare masks the true diameter and gives the impression of increasing size as it gets away from the horizon.

    It is easy to replicate this effect: simply place a bright flashlight on something stable, take a few steps away, and try to take a cellphone photo of the light directly head-on. The resulting bright white, diffuse patch of light with soft edges doesn't reflect the true size of the flashlight bulb/reflector, but rather the glare of the intense light on the lens of the camera. If you dim the light (place tissue paper or translucent plastic over the flashlight's bulb end), the glare is decreased, and now you can see the flashlight's true smaller diameter.

    However, there is a simple way to definitively prove whether the sun decreases in size or not as it rises or sets: a telescope fitted with a solar filter. This cuts out the glare and just shows the "disc" of the sun. It wouldn't even need to be a big or expensive telescope; just one with a safe solar filter. You could photograph it at the same magnification throughout the day and see if it changes in size.  In fact, the classic simple "pinhole" projection box method might even work; you could measure the diameter of the sun along the projected background with a ruler and see if it changes during different times of the day.

     Is anyone aware of someone using this method (solar telescope or projector) and measuring if the sun's objective diameter increases or decreases with its position in the sky?

    Yes, glare could be an issue, and it would be good to try filming this observation of the setting sun with a solar filter on the camera lens. But still, we can in any case see that the core of the sun can be seen to be getting smaller in the video. It's possible that there was a solar filter on the lens of camera of the guy who filmed the setting sun.

    I could be wrong, but I don't agree that it would be easy to replicate this with a flashlight, since nothing in physical existence can compare with the brightness of the sun.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline hansel

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 131
    • Reputation: +182/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #91 on: March 01, 2023, 11:06:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, glare could be an issue, and it would be good to try filming this observation of the setting sun with a solar filter on the camera lens. But still, we can in any case see that the core of the sun can be seen to be getting smaller in the video. It's possible that there was a solar filter on the lens of camera of the guy who filmed the setting sun.



    Unfortunately, they could not have used a solar filter in that footage, as a true solar filter is like looking through a welder's glass (it is so dark and calibrated for such a bright light, all you can see is the disc of the sun, no sky, clouds, trees, ocean horizon, etc. everything else is black) It needs to be that dark in order to cut out the glare.



    I could be wrong, but I don't agree that it would be easy to replicate this with a flashlight, since nothing in physical existence can compare with the brightness of the sun.

    I was thinking about this myself and decided to try an experiment. Below are the results. Flashlight was photographed with and Android phone 4 feet away in a lit room. The green linear object to the right is a standard 12 inch ruler. It shows that the glare from a bright light can give the illusion of larger diameters in what is reality a much smaller subject. It might be interesting to experiment with different thickness, sizes, and shapes of the paper filter to see what kind of gradations in apparent size change might occur. 

    All this shows is that glare can increase the apparent size (and therefore "closeness") of an object. Measuring the sun's diameter with a solar telescope or a pinhole set-up would be the definitive answer.




    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47045
    • Reputation: +27872/-5183
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #92 on: March 01, 2023, 11:23:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There are many similar videos with or without filters ... for anyone willing to search with a open mind.

    But in that video, the size difference is way too big to be explainable with some filter nonsense.

    Offline hansel

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 131
    • Reputation: +182/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #93 on: March 01, 2023, 11:52:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There are many similar videos with or without filters ... for anyone willing to search with a open mind.

    But in that video, the size difference is way too big to be explainable with some filter nonsense.


    With all due respect Ladislaus, I've looked at many videos online of this apparent increase and decrease of the sun's size, and I have never encountered any that use a true solar filter. There are many different filters that can be fitted to cameras/telescopes etc., but only a solar filter will actually cancel out the glare and provide an objective image of the sun's edge and surface. In a filter like this, the background will be completely black, and the sun will be white, bluish, or light yellowish.

    Yes, the difference in size in the video is extreme, but as that simpe flashlight experiment above shows, glare can produce a dramatically larger appearance to a bright object in some circuмstances. Image A in the image I posted (where the light is uncovered) is significantly larger than the true size of the flashlight, all due to glare.  I honestly don't see why a solar filter would be considered "nonsense" if it is removing that bias of the glare and more correctly showing the size of something. 

    Just to be completely clear, I'm not being confrontational here; I'm just legitimately interested in this and am asking everyone if it's ever been done that way before. Have you encountered any videos where a true solar filter was used and docuмented the change in size of the sun?

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #94 on: March 01, 2023, 12:03:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • With all due respect Ladislaus, I've looked at many videos online of this apparent increase and decrease of the sun's size, and I have never encountered any that use a true solar filter. There are many different filters that can be fitted to cameras/telescopes etc., but only a solar filter will actually cancel out the glare and provide an objective image of the sun's edge and surface. In a filter like this, the background will be completely black, and the sun will be white, bluish, or light yellowish.

    Yes, the difference in size in the video is extreme, but as that simpe flashlight experiment above shows, glare can produce a dramatically larger appearance to a bright object in some circuмstances. Image A in the image I posted (where the light is uncovered) is significantly larger than the true size of the flashlight, all due to glare.  I honestly don't see why a solar filter would be considered "nonsense" if it is removing that bias of the glare and more correctly showing the size of something. 

    Just to be completely clear, I'm not being confrontational here; I'm just legitimately interested in this and am asking everyone if it's ever been done that way before. Have you encountered any videos where a true solar filter was used and docuмented docuмented the change in size of the sun?
    Here you go, one example
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline hansel

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 131
    • Reputation: +182/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #95 on: March 01, 2023, 12:38:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Here you go, one example

    Thank you for sharing DigitalLogos. One thing I'm noticing in the video though is that despite the title, the filter he used is technically not a true astronomical solar filter.  You can still clearly see the clouds, trees, and horizon in the pictures. It is a very dark filter no doubt, but not anywhere as dark as a true solar filter, in which you wouldn't see that unlit detail (unless it was directly crossing the sun's face). Therefore, there is still glare bleeding through it that could be affecting the measurement and is blurring the edges. Even when the clouds are not passing the face of the sun, you an see the texture in them clearly, which you would not see in a solar filter. In a true solar filter, the background is pitch black and the photographed sun's edges are razor sharp, as in this guy's example:

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tYrFzRVHg1I

    I'll keep an eye out for new examples that might use a true solar filter, and in the future, if someone has the equipment, this would be an interesting experiment to perform and report on.




    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #96 on: March 01, 2023, 01:19:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here's a video by a flat earther that shows footage made by an anti-flat earther, but that footage actually shows the sun to be getting smaller as it sets, and that's using a filter:

    Anti-Flat Earth Time Lapse Solar Filter Footage (AGAIN) Shows Sun Shrinking at Sunset - Bing video

    I've been viewing footage today of sunsets that show (with a filter) that the sun does not change size, but they feature the sun setting at a sideways movement, and not directly overhead. Not sure how that's a factor. 

    The guy who makes the video that I posted above asked...."Don't we all just want the truth"? I think that's a good thing to ask. We just want the truth. Not some NASA or тαℓмυdic version of truth. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47045
    • Reputation: +27872/-5183
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #97 on: March 01, 2023, 01:46:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've been viewing footage today of sunsets that show (with a filter) that the sun does not change size, but they feature the sun setting at a sideways movement, and not directly overhead. Not sure how that's a factor.

    If the sun is overhead, you're actually looking through less atmosphere between you and the sun.  When it's lower on the horizon, there's much more atmosphere.  By the time you get to 30,000 feet or so, about 7+ miles, the atmosphere is very thin.  But if you look toward the horizon, the sun his hundreds of miles away and you're looking at it through lots more atmosphere.  If there's any humidity in said atmosphere, it's going to magnify the sun, to about the same size, regardless of the distance.  Rob Skiba did some experiments that demonstrate this, where his depiction of the sun reduced in size as it move away from the camera.  But he interposed a lens between the camera and "the sun" and it didn't change at all in size as it moved backwards (and also appeared to set).  Moisture/humidity magnify objects.



    It's no accident that some of the best video of shrinking sun was taken across a desert.

    This is also why the moon can look gigantic when it's low over the horizon.  This was in fact Aristotle's explanation for the so-called "moon illusion" ... and he was right.  Modern science has thrown out the theory that it's just an optical illusion in our brains, but that is debunked by the fact that you can take pictures of the moon at the same zoom level above and then on the horizon and they come out at different sizes.  So NASA now claims they "don't know" why the moon is larger over the horizon.  They know full well, but don't want to admit the Aristotle explanation because that contributes to debunking the NASA globe propaganda.


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #98 on: March 01, 2023, 02:07:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If the sun is overhead, you're actually looking through less atmosphere between you and the sun.  When it's lower on the horizon, there's much more atmosphere.  By the time you get to 30,000 feet or so, about 7+ miles, the atmosphere is very thin.  But if you look toward the horizon, the sun his hundreds of miles away and you're looking at it through lots more atmosphere.  If there's any humidity in said atmosphere, it's going to magnify the sun, to about the same size, regardless of the distance.  Rob Skiba did some experiments that demonstrate this, where his depiction of the sun reduced in size as it move away from the camera.  But he interposed a lens between the camera and "the sun" and it didn't change at all in size as it moved backwards (and also appeared to set).  Moisture/humidity magnify objects.



    It's no accident that some of the best video of shrinking sun was taken across a desert.

    This is also why the moon can look gigantic when it's low over the horizon.

    That's a fascinating experiment in that the magnification of the lens (as you said) causes the sun to appear to set and not change size. And that magnification represents water in the atmosphere. That makes sense. 

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #99 on: March 01, 2023, 06:19:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0




  • Today I went out after work and bought 2 different magnifying lenses. One was like the flat sheet (3x) that the fellow in the video used and the other was a 4” (10x) round glass one. My 16 and my 11 year old sons helped me do the experiment. The results were as I anticipated. Using the flat magnifier, the object just became much larger and more blurry as it moved away. Using the large round magnifying glass, the object appeared clearer and nearly unchanged as it was moved away. 

    I suggest that those who promote FE conduct their own experiments instead of relying on YouTube videos from people they know nothing about. If you will recall, last year I went to a lake and conducted an experiment using two different telescopes demonstrating that I couldn’t see an object that would be visible 20 miles away if the Earth was indeed flat. It was ignored and excuses were made. Sadly I seem to be one of the few on this forum who is willing to get off their backside and try to find answers. :facepalm:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47045
    • Reputation: +27872/-5183
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #100 on: March 01, 2023, 06:30:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I suggest that those who promote FE conduct their own experiments instead of relying on YouTube videos ...

    I suggest you approach the subject with an open instead of brainwashed by modern science.  Your participation in this discussion is utterly pointless, as you've already made up your mind and not willing to look at any evidence to the contrary.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47045
    • Reputation: +27872/-5183
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #101 on: March 01, 2023, 06:31:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sadly I seem to be one of the few on this forum who is willing to get off their backside and try to find answers. :facepalm:

    You're not trying to find answers.  You've already dismissed FE out of the gate.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47045
    • Reputation: +27872/-5183
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #102 on: March 01, 2023, 06:32:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If you will recall, last year I went to a lake and conducted an experiment using two different telescopes demonstrating that I couldn’t see an object that would be visible 20 miles away if the Earth was indeed flat. It was ignored and excuses were made.

    Your pictures were worthless and provided no evidence of anything.  We explained very clearly why that was the case, but you dismiss them as "excuses" (unable to actually refute what was said).  Yet another case of your simply begging the question, searching for "evidence" to back up your predetermined position on the matter, and ignoring arguments against it by gratuitously dismissing them as mere "excuses".

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #103 on: March 01, 2023, 07:23:38 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I suggest you approach the subject with an open instead of brainwashed by modern science.  Your participation in this discussion is utterly pointless, as you've already made up your mind and not willing to look at any evidence to the contrary.



    :laugh1: It’s just the opposite, it’s you who are brainwashed and fooled by a bunch of shills on the internet. It seems that you are too scared to discover that you just might be wrong.

    I am the one who is willing to do experiments myself. I am the one wanting to make sure that I’m not mistaken. 

    Are you afraid to find out that you’ve been fooled by some con artist in YouTube video? Quit wasting your time watching videos and do the experiment yourself. Don’t be afraid of being proved wrong.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Donachie

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2566
    • Reputation: +620/-258
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Test GE and FE
    « Reply #104 on: March 01, 2023, 09:01:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, yes, but I'm not sure that Plato, Socrates or Aristotle would ever be considered as heretics for any reason since they lived long before the existence of the Catholic Church.

    I don't know much about Plato or Socrates, but from what we know about Aristotle, through St. Thomas, he was of course a keen and astute observer of human nature and the natural word. But observing human nature is different than observing the shape of the earth. Other humans are in close proximity, and the shape of the earth is not. We are just little specks compared to the size of the earth. The only way to try to observe the shape of the earth in the days of Aristotle was through direct observation and mathematical calculations. It was easier to be mistaken back in his day, and there still aren't really good ways to try to observe the shape of the earth in our time. We can really only find evidence. Just my opinion.
    It must be apparent that it's not a necessity for the Earth to be flat for it to be established and still as the Bible says. But there is a necessity in the relation of geometry to all physical circuмstances. It's this necessary relation of geometry to all physical circuмstances that leads me to the rounder and round as can be Earth opinion.