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Author Topic: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth  (Read 2637 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2018, 12:23:14 PM »
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  • If Scripture says earth is flat, it's true. If flat earth is based on Scripture, it's a teaching. If the Fathers taught it, based on Scripture, it's a teaching. If the contrary pagan theory was condemned by the Church, we can know what our world is not. If empirical science proves flat earth and it doesn't contradict Scripture or the Church, it's a logical conclusion it must be true. If all aspects of flat earth, spiritual, scientific, logical, physical, and natural agree on flat earth, it must be true. And if true, it's a teaching. Because Christ is truth. When collected together, proofs continue to line up with flat earth and do not line up with the past or present teaching that earth is a moving globe. Although the ifs remain, and are not absolutely proven, we can still conclude we are on the track of Catholic teaching. It would be error to say that if it's true, but not a specifically stated dogma, it cannot be Catholic teaching. Because Christ is truth.
     Agreed. (Except for the ifs)  But I do get your point. 


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #31 on: March 10, 2018, 01:38:34 PM »
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  • Do you consider FE equivalent to EENS or the Holy Trinity etc...?
    Maybe that's all you wanted but many of your fellow FEers seem determined to condemn globe Earthers, and you never seem to admonish them for it.
    From my perspective it seems that you are taking facts and drawing unreasonable conclusions from them. Most Church Fathers seemed to believe in a flat Earth. You take this fact and conclude that most Church Fathers TAUGHT a flat Earth as if it was a Tradition passed down from the Apostles. It's not a valid conclusion especially when we have those quotes from some Fathers that explicitly say these topics are not important for our salvation.
    In the hierarchy of teachings, no.  Unless contested and replaced with a false idea of creation, the form of the earth isn't necessary for salvation.  Now that people believe in a false cosmology that leads to godlessness and paganism, it has become a serious problem. 
    I consider it a teaching.  I don't condemn globe earthers because people don't always know what they should.  My hope is to bring them the truth.  That's all.


    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #32 on: March 10, 2018, 01:45:41 PM »
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  • The idea that "most Fathers thought the earth was flat" does not prove that they thought "the globe is an error". Lactantius is the only one that thought it was erroneous. I am not saying that anyone taught that the flat earth was an error. You must never read any posts of mine on this topic.
    Again, I believe that flat Earth is not a teaching of the Church nor was it considered important for salvation by the Fathers. I also believe that it's at least schismatic to condemn others who don't believe in a flat Earth. I also believe worrying about this topic too much is distracting from the faith and consequently, probably a tool of the devil.

    On June 22, the Holy Office formally condemns Galileo for heresy: 

    “We say, pronounce, sentence and declare that you, the said Galileo...have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine which is false and contrary to the Sacred and Divine Scriptures, that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the earth moves and is not the center of the world...after it has been declared and defined as contrary to Holy Scripture...From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that...you abjure, curse, and detest before us the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church.”  Pope Urban VIII took full responsibility for the condemnation of Galileo by enforcing “in forma communi” the Congregation’s prohibitions against books holding the Copernican system as truth.
    Reference: Exorciser le spectre de Galilée - Abbe Philippe Marcille, Editions du Sel, 2014, pp 40 and scripturecatholic.com



    St. John Chrysostom Commentary on the Hebrews 8:1

    “Where are those who say that the heaven is in motion? Where are those who think it is spherical? For both these opinions are here swept away.”
    Quoted by Cosmas.


    St. Jerome, Commentary on Isaiah

    God "[had] established the great mass of the land and had gathered it together above the seas and rivers, so that the heaviest element [earth] hangs over the lighter weight waters by the will of God, who like a king sits above the circle of the earth. There are some who assert that this mass is like a point and globe...What, then, will the land be over ...?"
    Original latin here


    From the Pontifical Decrees Against The Doctrine The Earth’s Movement by Rev. William W. Roberts

    "Since it has come to the knowledge of the above-named Holy Congregation that the false Pythagorean doctrine, [See: Pythagoras] altogether opposed to the divine Scripture, on the mobility of the earth and the immobility of the sun...this Congregation has decreed that the said books...be suspended till they are corrected; but that the book of Father Paul Antony Foscarini the Carmelite be altogether prohibited and condemned, and all other books that teach the same thing; as the present decree respectively prohibits, condemns, and suspends all...." (pp.56, 57)

    [Why is this significant? The idea that the world was a sphere has been around a long time, but Pythagoras was one of the first to come up with it. This quote shows that the church was not only aware of the round earth error but also that its source was pythagoras]


    Methodius:
    “Resuming  then,  let  us  first  lay  bare,  in  speaking of  those  things  according  to  our  power,  the imposture  of  those  who  boast  as  though  they  alone  had  comprehended  from  what  forms  the  heaven  is arranged,  in  accordance  with  the  hypothesis  of  the  Chaldeans  and  Egyptians.  For *they*  say  that  the circuмference  of  the  world  is  likened  to  the  turnings  of  a  well‐rounded  globe,  the  earth  having  a central  point.  For  its  outline  being  spherical,  it  is  necessary,  they  say,  since  there  are  the  same  distances of  the  parts,  that  the  earth  should  be  the  center  of  the  universe,  around  which  as  being  older,  the  heaven is  whirling.  For  if  a  circuмference  is  described  from  the  central  point,  which  seems  to  be  a  circle,  ‐  for  it is  impossible  for  a  circle  to  be  described  without  a  point,  and  it  is  impossible  for  a  circle  to  be  without  a point,  ‐  surely  the  earth  consisted  before  all,  they  say,  in  a  state  of  chaos  and  disorganization.  Now certainly  the  wretched  ones  were  overwhelmed  in  the  chaos  of  error,  “because  that,  when  they  knew  God, they  glorified  Him  not  as  God,
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #33 on: March 10, 2018, 05:57:57 PM »
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  • I numbered your quotes. Let me address each one.

    1. This is a fallible condemnation from the Holy Office about Geocentrism, not Flat Earth...next.

    2. Not a condemnation of Globe Earth nor a doctrinal teaching of flat Earth. Assuming this is a legit quote, St. John's opinion that those opinions are swept away...next.

    3. A question by St. Jerome. Again, not at all a condemnation...next.

    4. So what? Another Geocentrism quote...next.

    5. Again, not at all a condemnation of Globe Earth.

    Like I said before, all you have is Lactantius and even he contradicted his own principles.
    1. The condemnation has not been lifted.  And Galileo wasn't about geocentrism per se, the Holy Office condemned heliocentrism. Specifically, the movement of the earth and the stationary sun.  However, the Pope, Robert Bellarmine and others are shown in related docuмents they despised the heliocentric model knowing from where it came from, the pagans, and they repeatedly stated that heliocentrism was altogether heretical. The moving globe is a staple in the heliocentric model raised again and again by pagans. No wonder they hated it.
    2. No one said the Holy Office condemnation was a doctrinal teaching on flat earth per se.  Nevertheless, these men were fully aware that antipodes were a false teaching and that Jerusalem is at the center of the earth, both impossibilities on a sphere. 
    3. St. Jerome is mocking the pagan notion of global earth.
    4. The Pythagorean Doctrine, which includes the globe, is said to be heretical.  They didn't condemn heliocentrism and say, "except the globe".
    5.  "The Chaldeans  and  Egyptians... *they*  say  that  the circuмference  of  the  world  is  likened  to  the  turnings  of  a  well‐rounded  globe..."   Methodius shows in number 5 exactly who is promoting the globe.  And with the final sentence in the paragraph, he unloads on them for it. "Now certainly  the  wretched  ones  were  overwhelmed  in  the  chaos  of  error,  “because  that,  when  they  knew  God, they  glorified  Him  not  as  God."


    Flat earth 5
    Globe  0

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #34 on: March 11, 2018, 12:16:52 PM »
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  • Happenby, you really lose a lot of integrity with me when you jump to conclusions.  No matter how bad you want something to be, a good scientist/detective lets the facts lead him to the answer.  Now you have plenty of facts, but if you are missing some pieces of evidence which connect fact A to fact C, you can't ASSUME fact B supports your theory.  Philosophers can do this, but not scientists.  If you don't have evidence for fact B (even if logic would assume it exists) you must WAIT for fact B to surface.  If you do not wait, then you are not following the scientific method, therefore you should not be preaching and writing books about science.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #35 on: March 11, 2018, 05:01:57 PM »
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  • .
    This thread title is at least PARTIALLY correct -- the part that says, nonsense - flat earth
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #36 on: March 11, 2018, 06:50:48 PM »
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  • Happenby, you really lose a lot of integrity with me when you jump to conclusions.  No matter how bad you want something to be, a good scientist/detective lets the facts lead him to the answer.  Now you have plenty of facts, but if you are missing some pieces of evidence which connect fact A to fact C, you can't ASSUME fact B supports your theory.  Philosophers can do this, but not scientists.  If you don't have evidence for fact B (even if logic would assume it exists) you must WAIT for fact B to surface.  If you do not wait, then you are not following the scientific method, therefore you should not be preaching and writing books about science.
    Thank you.  Listening.  Praying. 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #37 on: March 11, 2018, 06:51:17 PM »
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  • I'm quite happy with you Dogmatic Flatearthists continuing to use these quotes as your "proof" that Flat Earth is a teaching of the Church. Two of the quotes don't have anything at all to do with the shape of the Earth, the others are merely an opinion shared by a few Church Fathers, not at all a teaching of any salvific importance.
    I'll just leave this here for people who are interested in actually learning the mind of the Fathers.
    The Church Fathers did not condemn the Globe Earth

    Ok


    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #38 on: March 11, 2018, 09:30:47 PM »
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  • If Scripture says earth is flat, it's true. If flat earth is based on Scripture, it's a teaching. If the Fathers taught it, based on Scripture, it's a teaching. If the contrary pagan theory was condemned by the Church, we can know what our world is not. If empirical science proves flat earth and it doesn't contradict Scripture or the Church, it's a logical conclusion it must be true. If all aspects of flat earth, spiritual, scientific, logical, physical, and natural agree on flat earth, it must be true. And if true, it's a teaching. Because Christ is truth. When collected together, proofs continue to line up with flat earth and do not line up with the past or present teaching that earth is a moving globe. Although the ifs remain, and are not absolutely proven, we can still conclude we are on the track of Catholic teaching. It would be error to say that if it's true, but not a specifically stated dogma, it cannot be Catholic teaching. Because Christ is truth.
    Awesome point!  God is Truth and The Truth will lead us to God.  Bishop Williamson went on and on about this in his sermon on George Orwell's 1984.  I think that's still around and it is excellent.  

    If Flat Earth is Truth, then it will lead people to God, because Truth leads us to God.  If Earth As A Planet is False, then it will lead people away from God, because God is Truth.  Satan is The Father of Lies.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #39 on: March 11, 2018, 09:51:48 PM »
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  • Truth leads to Salvation.  So, of course all Truth is important to Salvation.  You can't just lie your head off about practically everything in the material world and expect God to save you.  If we are in a War of Good against Evil and we must pick a side in that war and if Good = Truth and Evil = Lies, then we should be loyal to The Truth and unfaithful to lies.  There is objective truth, it is knowable, as surely as God is knowable.  If we can't think straight about the natural world around us, then how are we going to think straight about the supernatural!  If we can't be honest about the natural world, then how can we be honest about the supernatural world.  Both worlds have the same Maker.  Why should we care about the Old Mass, vs The New Mass, if Truth doesn't matter and knowing the truth, experiencing the truth and living it in the little details of our lives and worship doesn't matter.  Of course it matters!  Shall we say, the new mass is good enough for salvation, so lets forget about this latin mass?  No, because we recognize the truth in the latin mass and the dangerous lack of clarity and reverence in the new mass.  



    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #40 on: March 11, 2018, 10:13:50 PM »
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  • Bishop Williamson: T.R.U.T.H
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #41 on: March 11, 2018, 10:20:54 PM »
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  • Bishop Williamson: True and False Obedience
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #42 on: March 11, 2018, 10:27:37 PM »
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  • Bishop Williamson: The Original Tribute
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Sungenis nonsense - flat earth
    « Reply #43 on: March 15, 2018, 11:54:00 AM »
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  • .
    This thread title is at least PARTIALLY correct -- the part that says, nonsense - flat earth
    .
    Because the curvature of the earth is everywhere we look.
    Because the curvature of the earth is knowable.
    Because to ignore the earth's curvature is to ignore the evidence of our senses.
    Only by ignoring the evidence of our senses can one believe in the nonsense of "flat" earth.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.