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Author Topic: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction  (Read 737 times)

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Offline happenby

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Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
« on: June 19, 2018, 09:52:18 AM »
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  • Robert Sungenis' cohorts of Kolbe Center admit:


    ”The Kolbe Center is committed in a special way to defending the Catholic teaching that “the literal and obvious sense of Scripture” as intended by the sacred authors must be believed unless reason or necessity force us to reject that teaching in favor of an exclusively figurative interpretation. Pope Leo XIII emphatically upheld this teaching in his encyclical Providentissimus Deus, which has never been overruled by any subsequent magisterial teaching. From the middle of the nineteenth century until the middle of the twentieth century, the apparent evidence for Darwin’s molecules to man evolutionary theory seemed to contradict the literal and obvious sense of the author(s) of Genesis, chapters 1-11, as consistently understood and taught by the Fathers, Popes, and Councils. The modern “anti-culture of death” grew out of the macro-evolutionary theory whose fundamental principles have since been contradicted by the discoveries of modern science."

    http://kolbecenter.org/contact-us/

    So, even among the Catholic globe geocentrists, it is admitted that Scripture MUST be interpreted literally according to Pope Leo's PD and "be believed unless reason or necessity force us to reject that teaching in favor of an exclusively figurative interpretation.

    What is the proof that we are forced to reject the literal interpretation of Scripture regarding its shape?


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #1 on: June 19, 2018, 10:10:51 AM »
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  • Sungenis and Hugh Owen at the Kolbe Center have painted themselves into an impossible corner.

    How do you -AS YOUR MISSION STATEMENT -  say that the literal interpretation of Genesis is true on Creation, but the parts about the Firmament are NOT true?


    This is an impossibilty.


    They even insist that PD is binding upon literal interpretation, but then they contradict themselves and say the Bible is mistaken.


    Worse, Sungenis MOCKS Bible believers!


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #2 on: June 19, 2018, 10:15:35 AM »
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  • Offline happenby

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #3 on: June 19, 2018, 10:27:47 AM »
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  • Sungenis and Hugh Owen at the Kolbe Center have painted themselves into an impossible corner.

    How do you -AS YOUR MISSION STATEMENT -  say that the literal interpretation of Genesis is true on Creation, but the parts about the Firmament are NOT true?


    This is an impossibilty.


    They even insist that PD is binding upon literal interpretation, but then they contradict themselves and say the Bible is mistaken.


    Worse, Sungenis MOCKS Bible believers!
    Origen called the firmament “without doubt firm and solid” (First Homily on Genesis, FC 71). Ambrose, commenting on Genesis 1:6, said, “the specific solidity of this exterior firmament is meant” (Hexameron, FC 42.60). And Saint Augustine said the word firmament was used “to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassible boundary between the waters above and the waters below” (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, ACW 41.1.61).
    Robert Sungenis is at odds with Church Fathers and Scripture.  Admitting PD and literal interpretation of Scripture is the smoking gun against their faulty interpretations.  What is their proof that Scripture is only speaking figuratively when it describes the earth when the Fathers say otherwise? 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #4 on: June 19, 2018, 10:33:01 AM »
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  • Even Wiki admits that historically they may have interpreted the globe to represent the universe.  So for the globers to pretend to use iconography to teach earth is a sphere is bogus.  The priest at the end of the Sungenis video in this thread has plenty to say on the subject, denying that the globe pictured in icons is the earth, but rather, is proven to be the universe.


    Wiki
    A possible non-literary but graphic indication that people in the Middle Ages believed that the Earth (or perhaps the world) was a sphere is the use of the orb (globus cruciger) in the regalia of many kingdoms and of the Holy Roman Empire. It is attested from the time of the Christian late-Roman emperor Theodosius II (423) throughout the Middle Ages; the Reichsapfel was used in 1191 at the coronation of emperor Henry VI. However the word 'orbis' means 'circle' and there is no record of a globe as a representation of the Earth since ancient times in the west till that of Martin Behaim in 1492. Additionally it could well be a representation of the entire 'world' or cosmos.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #5 on: June 19, 2018, 10:36:16 AM »
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  • Jaynek gets a big correction on the literal interpretation of Scripture from globe earthers. 

    ”The Kolbe Center is committed in a special way to defending the Catholic teaching that “the literal and obvious sense of Scripture” as intended by the sacred authors must be believed unless reason or necessity force us to reject that teaching in favor of an exclusively figurative interpretation. Pope Leo XIII emphatically upheld this teaching in his encyclical Providentissimus Deus, which has never been overruled by any subsequent magisterial teaching.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #6 on: June 19, 2018, 11:02:06 AM »
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  • Origen called the firmament “without doubt firm and solid” (First Homily on Genesis, FC 71).


    Ambrose, commenting on Genesis 1:6, said, “the specific solidity of this exterior firmament is meant” (Hexameron, FC 42.60).


    And Saint Augustine said the word firmament was used “to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassible boundary between the waters above and the waters below” (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, ACW 41.1.61).



    Robert Sungenis is at odds with Church Fathers and Scripture.  Admitting PD and literal interpretation of Scripture is the smoking gun against their faulty interpretations.
    ^^THIS^^
    I wonder why Sungenis thinks St. Jerome used the word "firmamentum"?
    For Sungenis to say the Bible got it wrong is one HELL of a contradiction.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #7 on: June 20, 2018, 02:30:23 AM »
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  • What is the proof that we are forced to reject the literal interpretation of Scripture regarding its shape?
    .
    There is no literal interpretation of Scripture regarding the shape of the earth.
    So there's nothing to reject in that regard.
    .
    Maybe you're confusing the Bible with the Koran; the Koran is plain as day saying the earth is "flat," literally.
    But the Koran is not a legitimate book of divine revelation. It's full of heresies and falsehoods, such as this one.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #8 on: June 20, 2018, 10:00:13 AM »
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  • I want to thank Sungenis for writing a 700+ page book on flat earth. 

    He will make this subject viral among Catholics.


    Every priest on Sundays will now be questioned,  "Father, have you seen Robert Sungenis's book?"

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #9 on: June 20, 2018, 10:10:57 AM »
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  • .
    There is no literal interpretation of Scripture regarding the shape of the earth.
    So there's nothing to reject in that regard.
    .
    Maybe you're confusing the Bible with the Koran; the Koran is plain as day saying the earth is "flat," literally.
    But the Koran is not a legitimate book of divine revelation. It's full of heresies and falsehoods, such as this one.
    Who cares what the Koran says?  I don't source it or defend it in any way.
    What do you mean, "There is no literal interpretation of Scripture regarding the shape of the earth."  Literal interpretation is just the literal understanding of the words (of Scripture).  The words speak for themselves.  God's Word cannot be incorrect or his Words be diametrically opposed to themselves.  The Church teaches that the literal comes first, and cannot be discarded unless it is impossible to understand literally.  God paints throughout Scripture a picture of earth that is incompatible with a sphere.  Scripture speaks of pillars, a dome, that earth has a face.  Scripture also says earth has ends, and can be seen entirely from certain high places, that God in Heaven is above us, that God fixed together the firmament with the earth "like a square block of stone" and is an immovable foundation.  An immovable foundation cannot possibly be a ball hanging in space.    
    Genesis 1: 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
    7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
    8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

    There are dozens of passages that taken together, cannot, with serious Godly consideration, be reconciled with a globe.  Nor has anyone ever attempted to defend that Scripture describes a globe.  Yet, Fathers and Doctors of the Church who do compare the passages of Scripture on the form of the earth, all come up with the same thing, earth is flat with a dome above that separates heaven and earth.  This is expounded on by other Saints who explain that the earth is a template of the Church and tabernacle, and amazingly, reflected in the liturgy.  


    Other notable Fathers of the Church who taught flat geocentric earth are Theophilus of Antioch in the second century and Clement of Alexandria in the third, based on the seventh verse of the first chapter of Genesis, both taught that spread over the earth was a solid vault, "a firmament," and they added the passage from Isaiah in which it is declared that the heavens are stretched out "like a curtain," and again "like a tent to dwell in." From Moses, Enoch, Clement and Theophilus and many others, Cosmas Indiocopleustes also reiterates that earth is like a house: the earth is its ground floor, the firmament its ceiling, under which the Almighty hangs out the sun to rule the day, and the moon and stars to rule the night. This ceiling is also the floor of the apartment above, and in this is a cistern, shaped, as one of the authorities says, "like a bathing-tank," and containing "the waters which are above the firmament.


    Mocking me for bringing this information to Catholics is unbecoming.  I don't do this to get scorned or praised, but to pass on information I discovered and believe to be of great value in this day and age of lying modern science promoted by NASA and pagan scientists.  If you don't want to believe it because you like the way your world is, that's your business.  But claiming I'm promoting Islam or paganism is ridiculous when most of my sources are Catholic and 100% of the globe sources are pagan.    


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #10 on: June 20, 2018, 10:21:50 AM »
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  • I want to thank Sungenis for writing a 700+ page book on flat earth.

    He will make this subject viral among Catholics.


    Every priest on Sundays will now be questioned,  "Father, have you seen Robert Sungenis's book?"
    Kind of like Pope Francis is the best thing to happen to Tradition.  Defending truth brings out the zeal in Catholics.  


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #11 on: June 20, 2018, 10:29:34 AM »
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  • Interesting collectipn of iconography here at link.

    It shows that the priest who corrected Hugh Owen and Sungenis is correct: the globus crugiger represents the universe. The author even covers the fact that the people understood the orb to be the universe because they knew earth was a round flat disc, and not a planet.

    https://artmirrorsart.wordpress.com/2017/04/09/mirror-spheres-or-adventures-of-globus-cruciger-in-flanders

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #12 on: June 20, 2018, 12:43:41 PM »
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  • .
    Nowhere in the Bible is the shape of the earth spelled out. 
    But in the Koran, it is. The Koran says the earth is "flat."
    So you must be Mohammedan.
    You believe what the Koran says in preference to the Bible.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #13 on: June 20, 2018, 12:47:28 PM »
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  • Interesting collectipn of iconography here at link.

    Blah, blah, blah...
    .
    Smedley Butler, the chicken.
    Still trying to hide from the discussion, Smedley Chicken?
    In your own words, "Go look at the moon right now!"
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Sungenis' Outrageous Contradiction
    « Reply #14 on: June 20, 2018, 02:14:58 PM »
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  • I'll be at the livefeed in an hour.

    Neil, no doubt, will be outside measuring the angle of the moon.