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Author Topic: Sun and Earth  (Read 7477 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Sun and Earth
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2022, 08:39:01 PM »
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  • To be fair, if a pope uses "may not" in an encyclical, that's hardly a definitive teaching.  Not all encyclicals are infallible, by nature.  It depends how they are written.  Benedict's "openness to science" (similar to Pius XII on theistic evolution) is neither a teaching, nor a decisive statement.  In my opinion, both were horribly wrong for opening pandora's box but there is no authoritative nature in any of this.  In other words, Benedict XV was just wrong (as was Pius XII) and St Robert and company are still correct.

    The Holy Office of 1633 is correct.  No, the 3rd possibility is that Benedict XV, like Pius XII, were either liberal or listened to liberal advice.  Their encyclicals were not heretical and neither were they authoritative.  When speaking on science, you can't judge such as a "teaching" in the same way as an encyclical on the sacraments.  Infallibility only protects faith/morals.  The matters of science (those discussed in the Bible) are part of Faith but also outside of it.

    My opinion = they were convinced that "new facts" had emerged to possibly change the Church's views.  Theology cannot change, but science can still discover.  So since Faith and Reason are not in opposition, it is *possible* for new facts to emerge which can partially (but not substantially) change the Church's views...only in the realm of science.  That's why Benedict used "may" to denote theory and also why Pius XII said that "further investigation" is allowed on evolution.

    But we know now that these "new facts" are lies and so all of this is water under the bridge.  We return to the Church Fathers and 1633 as our authority.
    From Alberto Martinez' book, this paragraph from a timeline of events regarding the Galileo and Bruno affairs.  

    1885 – Father William Roberts publishes his book
    The Pontifical Decrees Against the Doctrine of the Earth’s Movement.  In this book, Fr. Roberts presents a strong case for the position that the Church’s condemnation of heliocentrism is infallible. He concludes: (1) Alexander VIII’s Speculatores was a papal act of supreme authority by which the pope, in the face of the whole Church, confirmed and approved the decrees with his Apostolic authority, and made himself responsible for their publication, that heliocentrism was false; (2) heliocentrism was false because the Church declared it a heresy, and whoever says an opinion is heresy ipso facto says that the contradictory of that opinion has been revealed by God with sufficient certainty to oblige a Catholic to accept it by an act of divine faith; and, (3) infallible teachings, even those ex-cathedra, do not generally generate any fresh obligation of faith, but protect and vindicate one that already exists.



    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #61 on: August 05, 2022, 09:57:48 AM »
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  • "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #62 on: August 05, 2022, 11:40:25 AM »
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  • From Alberto Martinez' book, this paragraph from a timeline of events regarding the Galileo and Bruno affairs. 

    1885 – Father William Roberts publishes his book
    The Pontifical Decrees Against the Doctrine of the Earth’s Movement.  In this book, Fr. Roberts presents a strong case for the position that the Church’s condemnation of heliocentrism is infallible. He concludes: (1) Alexander VIII’s Speculatores was a papal act of supreme authority by which the pope, in the face of the whole Church, confirmed and approved the decrees with his Apostolic authority, and made himself responsible for their publication, that heliocentrism was false; (2) heliocentrism was false because the Church declared it a heresy, and whoever says an opinion is heresy ipso facto says that the contradictory of that opinion has been revealed by God with sufficient certainty to oblige a Catholic to accept it by an act of divine faith; and, (3) infallible teachings, even those ex-cathedra, do not generally generate any fresh obligation of faith, but protect and vindicate one that already exists.
    According to John Daly's article on heliocentrism, Fr. Roberts was a liberal Catholic who had major problems with the dogma of papal infallibility, and used the seeming about-face of the Church on geocentrism as a means of attacking infallibility, so it fits into his argument to argue that the original condemnation of heliocentrism was infallible even if it really wasn't.

    In any case, that quote from Benedict XV pretty much does away with the argument that it's heretical to reject geocentrism. Obviously a pope can't say, in effect, "it appears geocentrism is not correct" in an encyclical, if geocentrism is a dogma of faith. It would be like a pope saying in an encyclical, "It appears there are four Persons in God." Such a thing is against the nature of the papacy.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #63 on: August 08, 2022, 10:17:12 PM »
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  • This guy's ideas are extremely interesting, kind of "out there" but not unreasonable. For example, the moon as a plasma projection of the flat earth (in negative) on the Firmament.

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #64 on: August 09, 2022, 08:21:10 AM »
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  • In any case, that quote from Benedict XV pretty much does away with the argument that it's heretical to reject geocentrism. Obviously a pope can't say, in effect, "it appears geocentrism is not correct" in an encyclical, if geocentrism is a dogma of faith. It would be like a pope saying in an encyclical, "It appears there are four Persons in God." Such a thing is against the nature of the papacy.

    You guys grossly exaggerate the scope of infallibility (in an overreaction against R&R).  There's no way some statement like "it appears geocentrism is not correct" comes anywhere near meeting the notes of infallibility.  Pius XII also said that it's OK for Catholics to entertain the notion of evolution.  You overreact to R&R's minimalist view of infallibility to taking it to absurd extremes in the other direction.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #65 on: August 09, 2022, 10:36:40 AM »
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  • According to John Daly's article on heliocentrism, Fr. Roberts was a liberal Catholic who had major problems with the dogma of papal infallibility, and used the seeming about-face of the Church on geocentrism as a means of attacking infallibility, so it fits into his argument to argue that the original condemnation of heliocentrism was infallible even if it really wasn't.

    In any case, that quote from Benedict XV pretty much does away with the argument that it's heretical to reject geocentrism. Obviously a pope can't say, in effect, "it appears geocentrism is not correct" in an encyclical, if geocentrism is a dogma of faith. It would be like a pope saying in an encyclical, "It appears there are four Persons in God." Such a thing is against the nature of the papacy.
    Daly's article certainly favors the idea that heliocentrism was condemned for heresy and the arguments are strong. I won't list them here. The arguments against the condemnation not being infallible were less persuasive. 1. It seemed only to be against Galileo, 2. never specifically said it was heretical (although they admit it was said other places) 3. did not define a doctrine and 4 wasn't addressed to the whole Church. I'm no theologian, nor is it necessary for me to argue in detail against the parsing of words this argument rests on, but even if technically true, the conclusion drawn would be in direct contradiction to the reason for condemnation. Why condemn what isn't heretical? How can a condemnation only apply to one man and no one else and the problem be solved if he abjured? I suppose there may be technical reasons for this opinion, but they don't add up to much. The churchmen discussed the doctrines heliocentrism contradicted and errors it promoted during the trial. Obviously, from discussion within the trial, along with the Bruno Affair and arguments and condemnations against others defending heliocentrism, they considered it all intolerable, an extreme danger to the faith as well as the source of innumerable errors, like reincarnation.  This reminds me of Anne Catherine Emmerich's assessment of the false notion of cosmology would be the mother of all heresies.   

    That Robertson was a liberal has no bearing whatsoever.  He concluded, after intensely detailed work, that the condemnation was infallible and Roberts believed in heliocentrism which makes his conclusion all the more plausible. 

    What's truly interesting is the people who suggest that heliocentrism can't be heresy. That's strange since the entire panel of popes, saints and theologians who expounded on the problems with heliocentrism at the time were extremely erudite and animated about the errors it produced and most notably for them, because it contradicted scripture. 

    The devil may be in the details, but along with innumerable errors, there's another good reason to abandon heliocentrism: It can't possibly have been so deeply divisive and not be a danger to one's soul.       

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #66 on: August 09, 2022, 03:07:17 PM »
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  • While wondering with great awe at the God of all creation whose attributes are infinite, we may still stand back in utter amazement when we contemplate the sizes of things in our material world, this material world which is a reflection, albeit limited, of the infinite greatness of God.  Perhaps, you will find as I do, the following site to be quite amazing as an aid in that regard: https://www.htwins.net/scale2/.
    Love that link! Thank you Charity.
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    Offline Charity

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #67 on: August 11, 2022, 04:20:01 PM »
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  • Love that link! Thank you Charity.

    Thanks Cera.  I'm glad that you do.  Years ago just after it first came out and I first brought it to Robert Sungenis' attention he shared the same sentiment with me and he immediately highlighted it on his website.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #68 on: August 11, 2022, 05:01:29 PM »
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  • Daly's article certainly favors the idea that heliocentrism was condemned for heresy and the arguments are strong. I won't list them here. The arguments against the condemnation not being infallible were less persuasive. 1. It seemed only to be against Galileo, 2. never specifically said it was heretical (although they admit it was said other places) 3. did not define a doctrine and 4 wasn't addressed to the whole Church. I'm no theologian, nor is it necessary for me to argue in detail against the parsing of words this argument rests on, but even if technically true, the conclusion drawn would be in direct contradiction to the reason for condemnation. Why condemn what isn't heretical? How can a condemnation only apply to one man and no one else and the problem be solved if he abjured? I suppose there may be technical reasons for this opinion, but they don't add up to much. The churchmen discussed the doctrines heliocentrism contradicted and errors it promoted during the trial. Obviously, from discussion within the trial, along with the Bruno Affair and arguments and condemnations against others defending heliocentrism, they considered it all intolerable, an extreme danger to the faith as well as the source of innumerable errors, like reincarnation.  This reminds me of Anne Catherine Emmerich's assessment of the false notion of cosmology would be the mother of all heresies. 

    That Robertson was a liberal has no bearing whatsoever.  He concluded, after intensely detailed work, that the condemnation was infallible and Roberts believed in heliocentrism which makes his conclusion all the more plausible.

    What's truly interesting is the people who suggest that heliocentrism can't be heresy. That's strange since the entire panel of popes, saints and theologians who expounded on the problems with heliocentrism at the time were extremely erudite and animated about the errors it produced and most notably for them, because it contradicted scripture.

    The devil may be in the details, but along with innumerable errors, there's another good reason to abandon heliocentrism: It can't possibly have been so deeply divisive and not be a danger to one's soul.     

    Yes, I find it much more probable that this decision of the Holy Office is infallible than that Benedict XV's passing comment would be infallible.

    There's no question that the Holy Office did intend to address this to the entire Church.  What, when the next guy came along teaching the same thing as Galileo, they would then have to issue a new decree?  And it does quite clearly teach a doctrine.  To me the biggest question is whether a decree of the Holy Office has behind it a sufficient plenitude of papal authority, i.e. the biggest question mark is whether the POPE taught this by virtue of his Petrine office.  To me, ratifying a decision from the Holy Office falls a hair short of that.

    Nevertheless, I hold it improbable that the Holy Office could err this badly on a matter of such great consequence, and I'm morally certain that they were not in error.

    But here's the kicker.  If there's widespread and well-founded doubt about whether something is de fide, then it's not de fide.  In order for something to be held de fide, it has to be held as certain with the certainty of faith, but (and you have to think about it here a bit) if it's not certain with the certainty of faith that it is certain with the certainty of faith, it cannot be held with the certainty of faith.  I believe that geocentrism is OBJECTIVELY de fide but I also don't hold that to be certain with the certainty of faith due to well-founded and widespread disputes about whether it has in fact been dogmatically defined.

    And one last point.  In the Holy Office decree, heliocentrism was what was rejected as heresy.  Nobody really believes in heliocentrism anymore, where the sun would be the fixed center of the universe.  Yet the Holy Office stated that the denial of geocentrism was a grave error (but not quite heretical); it assigned it a slightly lesser theological note than the condemnation of heliocentrism.  Of course, infallibility is slightly different than de fide.  I believe that it's possible for a teaching to be infallible even when declaring something to be in error with a lesser note than that of heresy.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #69 on: August 11, 2022, 05:10:48 PM »
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  • Yes, I find it much more probable that this decision of the Holy Office is infallible than that Benedict XV's passing comment would be infallible.

    There's no question that the Holy Office did intend to address this to the entire Church.  What, when the next guy came along teaching the same thing as Galileo, they would then have to issue a new decree?  And it does quite clearly teach a doctrine.  To me the biggest question is whether a decree of the Holy Office has behind it a sufficient plenitude of papal authority, i.e. the biggest question mark is whether the POPE taught this by virtue of his Petrine office.  To me, ratifying a decision from the Holy Office falls a hair short of that.

    According to The Earthmovers, both Pope Paul V in 1616 and Pope Urban VIII in 1633 condemned Heliocentrism and the Pythagorean heresies of Galileo. With Urban VIII universally publicizing the verdict:

    Quote
    On 2nd, July 1633, under orders of Pope Urban VIII, the condemnation of heliocentrism was made universally public, not just confined to Galileo alone as some apologists would argue later. Copies of the sentence and Galileo’s abjuration were sent to all vicar nuncios and inquisitors who in turn made them known to professors of philosophy and theology throughout the Catholic world. - Prologue, p. 9

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]