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Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => The Earth God Made - Flat Earth, Geocentrism => Topic started by: Charity on June 08, 2022, 09:58:40 PM

Title: Sun and Earth
Post by: Charity on June 08, 2022, 09:58:40 PM
Contemplating the awesomeness of God!  We are told that the Sun is an average size star and that there are trillions and trillions of stars.  It is also said that if you were to put the Sun and the Earth on a map where one inch equals 93 million miles, the Sun would be one inch away from the Earth whereas the very next nearest star after the Sun would be approximately one and a half miles away on that map!


(https://assistant.gloria.tv/FxK6pqhk7ZiS1AZwTDoBU6KMY/63fax3555608albgp3qz9lvvb2tgqf0pc2xt9zn.webp?scale=768&format=webp)



 (https://gloria.tv/Tesa)
 (https://gloria.tv/Tesa)


Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Donachie on June 08, 2022, 11:35:33 PM
They say, "Genesi nihil pulchrius, nihil utilius". If it's hard to remember what happened in the first days of creation, by chapter 2:1, it says, "So the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the furniture of them". 

Igitur perfecti sunt caeli et terra et omnis ornatus eorum.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Donachie on June 09, 2022, 12:00:30 AM
On cloudy days and eclipses it's easy to recognize that the Sun has the same angular diameter in the sky as the Moon. The reason the Sun appears bigger than that is because of the Earth's atmosphere which captures and magnifies sunlight. If the Earth had no atmosphere or not the one that it does, the Sun would not appear so big.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: roscoe on June 09, 2022, 11:53:04 AM
E rev around S :popcorn:
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Donachie on June 09, 2022, 05:54:16 PM
E rev around S :popcorn:
There's no proof for it other than the Foucault pendulum and that is a hoax that is driven, damped, and tuned. The fact that that gravity is not at all a lateral force ruins heliocentrism's insane attempts to find some justification in space or nutcase math.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: roscoe on June 09, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
My understanding is that Focault pendulum is proof E rotates on axis. It is James Bradley( along w/ Newton) who proves E rev around S... :popcorn:

Am i the only one in the Forum who has ACTUALLY READ Copernicus? :confused:
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Donachie on June 09, 2022, 09:22:07 PM
My understanding is that Focault pendulum is proof E rotates on axis. It is James Bradley( along w/ Newton) who proves E rev around S... :popcorn:

Am i the only one in the Forum who has ACTUALLY READ Copernicus? :confused:
Foucault's pendulum is driven, damped, and tuned. Copernicus had more epicycles than Ptolemy and no proof. If you read Newton's "Principia", you may conclude that he was insane, and Newton was chiefly an alchemist who suffered from recurrent bouts of insanity.

Copernican theory in terms of the Sun as some stable center is abandoned, and they have moved on to acentrism, which doesn't make any good sense either. But we can call "acentrism" "heliocentrism" for the sake of the same difference in error, which is the idea that the Earth, a simple body and a sphere, is moving at various astronomical velocities at once to orbit the Sun, because of so-called "gravity", which is not even at all a lateral force of the least measure.

Besides common sense and universal experience, the Bible contradicts Copernicus too.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on June 10, 2022, 05:01:58 AM
First, let us see where this image of the sun and Earth originated.

http://destroyerofheresies.blogspot.com/2022/06/a-short-theology-of-climate-change.html

That done, now doesn't the image look like the heretical heliocentric solar-system of Pythagoras, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton and roscoe? Now who would use a heretical picture to warn us that climate change is caused by man's sins. Surely the greatest sin was brought about by concession to Galileo's heresy from 1741 by churchmen themselves. Once popes allowed these changes to Scripture Modernism entered the Catholic Church leading to its demise today.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: roscoe on June 10, 2022, 01:45:40 PM
Cassini is a LIAR as I have posted numerous times that S is in motion,.... :fryingpan:
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: roscoe on June 10, 2022, 01:58:59 PM
Poor Cassini has the same prob Copernicus & Galileo had(which is understandable 500 yrs ago but not today): E S are Both in motion... :fryingpan:
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: SperaInDeo on June 10, 2022, 02:02:42 PM
Size doesn’t matter when you can make something from nothing. 

Size of creatures doesn’t matter when you’re already infinite in size and power yourself. 


Contemplate the actual Divine attributes instead of fairy tales. And if you want to be impressed by a creature then contemplate the Blessed Virgin Mary. 
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Charity on June 10, 2022, 08:04:15 PM
Size doesn’t matter when you can make something from nothing.

Size of creatures doesn’t matter when you’re already infinite in size and power yourself.


Contemplate the actual Divine attributes instead of fairy tales. And if you want to be impressed by a creature then contemplate the Blessed Virgin Mary.
While wondering with great awe at the God of all creation whose attributes are infinite, we may still stand back in utter amazement when we contemplate the sizes of things in our material world, this material world which is a reflection, albeit limited, of the infinite greatness of God.  Perhaps, you will find as I do, the following site to be quite amazing as an aid in that regard: https://www.htwins.net/scale2/ (https://www.htwins.net/scale2/).
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on June 10, 2022, 08:31:24 PM
Size doesn’t matter when you can make something from nothing.

True.  Anything of a finite size is infinitely small compared to God.  Even if there were a star that were a hundred billion times the size of the sun, it would make no difference and would be no more difficult for God to create.  That is a good meditation on the infinite greatness of God.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: gladius_veritatis on June 10, 2022, 08:44:17 PM
Contemplating the awesomeness of God!

God is Truth and everything you posted after the sentence above is utter nonsense.  
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: gladius_veritatis on June 10, 2022, 08:48:48 PM
Anything of a finite size is infinitely small compared to God.

Using terms like small/large/size in reference to the Almighty -- Who is pure Spirit and created all things great and small out of nothing -- seems out of place.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: gladius_veritatis on June 10, 2022, 08:51:56 PM
E S are Both in motion... 

The only thing in motion in your world is your lighter/match as it ignites your blunt/joint/bowl.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Donachie on June 10, 2022, 09:18:14 PM
roscoe knows this one?

Cheech & Chong - Up In Smoke (Official Vinyl Video) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_H1_8-CKls)

The outside of the record where the song starts goes around the middle or the center where the song ends. Things resolve to a center.

Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: roscoe on June 10, 2022, 09:22:28 PM
:confused: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Donachie on June 10, 2022, 09:26:46 PM
For heliocentrism to work, the Earth has to spin at different speeds along all its latitudes to account for the universal 24 hour day. Yet the Earth is a simple body and a sphere, as simple as being the only one that it is, and it cannot spin at many different speeds at the same time. Therefore, heliocentrism is not possible, and some things are impossible even for God..
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: gladius_veritatis on June 10, 2022, 09:30:09 PM
:confused: :popcorn:

Got the munchies, eh?
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on June 11, 2022, 06:37:07 AM
E rev around S :popcorn:

Cassini is a LIAR as I have posted numerous times that S is in motion,...

First of all let us see what Pope Paul V, as Prefect of the Holy Office and the only authority that could approve and order decrees of the Holy Office, put out in 1616 for all Catholics to obey:

(1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement,” was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical [denial of a revelation by God] inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by [all] the Fathers and theologians.”
(2) “That the Earth is not the centre of the world, and moves as a whole, and also with a diurnal movement,” was unanimously declared “to deserve the same censure philosophically, and, theologically considered to be at least erroneous in faith.”

Now roscoe, your ‘E rev around S’ asserts the Earth revolves around the sun. This is ‘erroneous to the Catholic faith’ for starters, and by any definition the heresy as defined. 

Now what kind of movement of the sun was it heresy to deny?  The movement ‘as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages,’ So, let us see one of those passages:

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the Earth standeth forever. The sun riseth, and goeth down, and returneth to his place: and there rising again, maketh his round by the south, and turneth again to the north: the spirit goeth forward, surveying all places round about, and returneth to his circuits..” --- (Eccl. 1:4-7, 10).
           
So, here the Bible reveals the Sun revolves around the Earth, not roscoe’s E rev around a moving S.

So then, roscoe, when you tell readers of CIF that ‘Cassini is a liar as I have posted numerous times that S is in motion,’ what motion of the sun do you think will make me a liar and your quip not heresy? It certainly isn’t the sun’s rotation as that was known by all in 1616. So again roscoe, what movement of the sun renders you not guilty of the above quoted heresy with your constant ‘S rev around S?’
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on June 11, 2022, 07:24:05 AM
My understanding is that Focault pendulum is proof E rotates on axis. It is James Bradley( along w/ Newton) who proves E rev around S... :popcorn:

Am i the only one in the Forum who has ACTUALLY READ Copernicus? :confused:

The Tolstoy Syndrome

‘I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truths if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.’

‘The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.’ --- Leo Tolstoy.

Roscoe, have you ever heard of Albert Einstein? Well, when the 1887 interferometer found no sign of an orbiting Earth, it took 19 years to get someone who could save your E rev around S. In order to save heliocentrism from scientific falsification, Einstein had to admit that geocentrism had NEVER been proven false. In other worlds, the science of cosmology now admits that Bradley’s 1726 find of stellar aberration, Bessell’s 1838 find of stellar parallax, and Foucault’s 1851 pendulum proved nothing as a geocentric universe can explain all of the above.

In other words, one can believe in Einstein’s and all the atheists’ Big Bang Special Theory of Relativity, falsified many times, or one can believe in the 1616 decree of the Catholic Church that defined the Bible reveals a geocentric universe created supernaturally as confirmed by the Council of Trent and all the Fathers. All the popes since Pius VII at least probably preferred Einstein’s account, so you are in good company. For me and others we will go along with God’s revelation, and you can stick with Einstein and others.

And what in God’s name has your question ‘Am I the only one on the forum who has ACTUALLY READ Copernicus’ got to do with it? I have. This book proved nothing and that is why it was rejected in 1524 when he issued an unsigned and untitled manuscript later named Commentariolus or ‘Little Commentary.’ And here is why it was never put on the Index.

‘And if [this book] constructs and thinks up causes - and it has certainly thought up a good many - nevertheless it does not think them up in order to persuade anyone of their truth but only that they provide a correct basis for calculation… Maybe the philosopher demands probability instead; but neither of them will grasp anything certain or hand it on, unless it has been divinely revealed to him.’ --- De rev
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on June 11, 2022, 09:34:35 AM
 
First of all let us see what Pope Paul V, as Prefect of the Holy Office and the only authority that could approve and order decrees of the Holy Office, put out in 1616 for all Catholics to obey:

(1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement,” was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical [denial of a revelation by God] inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by [all] the Fathers and theologians.”
(2) “That the Earth is not the centre of the world, and moves as a whole, and also with a diurnal movement,” was unanimously declared “to deserve the same censure philosophically, and, theologically considered to be at least erroneous in faith.”

Now roscoe, your ‘E rev around S’ asserts the Earth revolves around the sun. This is ‘erroneous to the Catholic faith’ for starters, and by any definition the heresy as defined.

Now what kind of movement of the sun was it heresy to deny?  The movement ‘as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages,’ So, let us see one of those passages:

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the Earth standeth forever. The sun riseth, and goeth down, and returneth to his place: and there rising again, maketh his round by the south, and turneth again to the north: the spirit goeth forward, surveying all places round about, and returneth to his circuits..” --- (Eccl. 1:4-7, 10).
           
So, here the Bible reveals the Sun revolves around the Earth, not roscoe’s E rev around a moving S.

So then, roscoe, when you tell readers of CIF that ‘Cassini is a liar as I have posted numerous times that S is in motion,’ what motion of the sun do you think will make me a liar and your quip not heresy? It certainly isn’t the sun’s rotation as that was known by all in 1616. So again roscoe, what movement of the sun renders you not guilty of the above quoted heresy with your constant ‘S rev around S?’

roscoe is confirmed a heretic :clown::popcorn:
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: roscoe on June 11, 2022, 12:23:27 PM
:laugh2:
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: St Giles on July 14, 2022, 03:29:28 PM
Here is an analysis of the the Church's teaching on the subject throughout history, and what is considered heretical. https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/geocentrism-heliocentrism-galileo/  I found it a good read, but lengthy with the extra BOD stuff added in.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: roscoe on July 15, 2022, 03:10:40 PM
I am not at all surprised to see Dimonds( Diamonds?)-- libelers of Popes Leo XIII, Pius XII & Card Rampolla-- pushing a dogmatic Geo-centrism...

What this has to do w/ 'bod' is  :confused:
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on July 15, 2022, 04:18:36 PM
I am not at all surprised to see Dimonds( Diamonds?)-- libelers of Popes Leo XIII, Pius XII & Card Rampolla-- pushing a dogmatic Geo-centrism...

What this has to do w/ 'bod' is  :confused:

No Roscoe, the Dimonds are on your side, they try to show that the 1616 decree and the confirmation of its authority by Pope Urban VIII in 1633 and by the Holy Office in 1820 meant nothing by way of Pope Benedict XV's 1921 encyclical on Dante In Praeclara Summorum.
First a quote from this encyclical:

'If the progress of science showed later that that conception of the world rested on no sure foundation, that the spheres imagined by our ancestors did not exist, that nature, the number and course of the planets and stars, are not indeed as they were then thought to be, still the fundamental principle remained that the universe, whatever be the order that sustains it in its parts, is the work of the creating and preserving sign of Omnipotent God, who moves and governs all, and whose glory shines in a part more or less elsewhere: and though this Earth on which we live may not be the centre of the universe as at one time was thought, it was the scene of the original happiness of our first ancestors, witness of their unhappy fall, as too of the Redemption of mankind through the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ.'

The Dimonds say:
Here we see Pope Benedict XV, in a 1921 encyclical, declare that “this Earth on which we live may not be the center of the universe as at one time was thought.”  In all the discussions of the issue with which I’m familiar, I’ve never seen the above quotation from Pope Benedict XV brought forward.  People such as John Daly, Solange Hertz, Paula Haigh, etc., who have spent much time on this issue, were obviously unaware of this quotation.

There are only two possibilities: 1) St. Robert Bellarmine and the members of the Holy Office were correct that geocentrism is de fide; in that case, Pope Benedict XV was wrong (and was teaching heresy) when stating that the Earth may not be the center of the universe; or 2) Pope Benedict XV was correct that the issue has not yet been settled (and the Earth might not be the center) and St. Robert Bellarmine, many theologians of the Holy Office and the Holy Office’s 1633 sentence against Galileo, etc. were therefore wrong for declaring heliocentrism to be heretical and considering geocentrism to be de fide.

If #1 is true, that means that Pope Benedict XV was teaching heresy in his encyclical.  It also means that he and other numerous other popes (as will be explained below) were ignorant of the true theological status of geocentrism.

My answer to this is:
It has been asserted by certain men, like the Dimond brothers, that the above encyclical shows the 1616 edict was not an irreversible (infallible) decree because Benedict XV did not confirm a geocentric universe. The Pope was of course referring to Einstein’s theory of relativity of his time as the progress of science that held ‘the world rested on no sure foundation.’ In other words, a geocentric universe was still as viable as a heliocentric one. Moreover, the Ptolemaic system of the universe was the universe of Dante, and yes, the Pope was right about it no longer being the true system. Given the fact that in his time geocentrism was still considered falsified by the Jesuits surrounding him, one surely would have expected the Pope to say the Earth ‘is not at the centre.’ But he did not, nor that the sun does not orbit the Earth, leaving the 1616 decree as defined and declared. One could equally say Pope Benedict XV with the words ‘may not be’ did not accept the physical non-violent heliocentrism ‘of modern astronomers’ insisted on by the Holy Office from 1820.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on July 15, 2022, 04:40:07 PM
When it comes down to it, I believe geocentrism is 100% true. I think Dr. Sugenis is correct in noting that the Church Fathers are unanimous on the fact that the Earth is the center of the universe (His Geocentrism 101 book is quite good). The Dimonds have a valid point here, especially when utilized for the argument that not everything the Holy Office states is de fide; but, this is one of those things where the teachings drawn from Holy Scripture and the Fathers themselves go against a Heliocentric universe.

On top of that, you have the anti-Creationist cosmology that developed out of the theories of Copernicus and co. that have done significant damage.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Yeti on July 15, 2022, 04:58:57 PM
the science of cosmology now admits that Bradley’s 1726 find of stellar aberration, Bessell’s 1838 find of stellar parallax, and Foucault’s 1851 pendulum proved nothing as a geocentric universe can explain all of the above.


For me, I was convinced about geocentrism until I learned about stellar parallax. I think a lot of the other data points towards geocentrism except that, and I have never heard any response to it. In Sungenis's video, his explanation was that the whole universe is moving in a toroidal orbit around the earth (just going from memory here). This makes no sense because the whole universe isn't able to go anywhere -- by definition, there's nowhere for it to go!
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on July 15, 2022, 05:02:35 PM

For me, I was convinced about geocentrism until I learned about stellar parallax. I think a lot of the other data points towards geocentrism except that, and I have never heard any response to it. In Sungenis's video, his explanation was that the whole universe is moving in a toroidal orbit around the earth (just going from memory here). This makes no sense because the whole universe isn't able to go anywhere -- by definition, there's nowhere for it to go!
Perhaps he meant the observable objects within the universe move in a toroidal orbit? Given that the background of the universe, truly, wouldn't move into nothingness.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Yeti on July 15, 2022, 05:11:01 PM
Perhaps he meant the observable objects within the universe move in a toroidal orbit? Given that the background of the universe, truly, wouldn't move into nothingness.
Maybe I don't remember the argument very clearly ...

So what is the geocentrist explanation for stellar parallax, then?
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on July 15, 2022, 05:34:08 PM
Maybe I don't remember the argument very clearly ...

So what is the geocentrist explanation for stellar parallax, then?
Here's what Dr. Sugenis has to say about it in Geocentrism 101, p. 64-65:

Quote
However, just as the geocentric system could answer stellar parallax by means of a reciprocal geometry, so was the case for stellar aberration. In fact, the alignment of the stars with the sun that provided the geocentric answer to stellar parallax also provides the geocentric answer to stellar aberration. Since the geocentric star field is offset from the Earth by 1 astronomical unit, then, as the star field rotates around the Earth on a 93 million mile radius, it will produce the same circular and elliptical formations of Gamma Draconis as that which is claimed for the heliocentric system.
[...] stellar aberration not only produces a circular star trail for stars near the north celestial pole, but it also produces elliptical trails for stars at a lower declination. For example, for a star situated at a 45 degree declination with respect to the Earth, its star trail over the course of a year would resemble the typical ellipse. But for a star situated at the equatorial celestial plane, its star trail would look like a hyperbola or straight line. These various formations will be exactly the same in both the heliocentric and geocentric systems for the same star.
Thus, neither stellar parallax nor stellar aberration could prove the heliocentric system. This fact was recognized in 1901 by the famous physicist Henri Poincare:
Quote
The observation of the aberration show us, therefore, not the movement of the earth, but the variation of this movement; they cannot, therefore, give us information about the absolute motion of the earth.

Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on July 15, 2022, 06:17:02 PM
Here's a good discussion of parallax:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100826022827/http://www.realityreviewed.com/Negative%20parallax.htm

written by:
Dr. Neville Thomas Jones, Ph.D., D.I.C., M.Sc.(Phys), M.Sc.(Comp), B.Sc.(Hons),
formerly of the Clarendon Laboratory, Oxford University, England.

Roughly 46% of stars have no parallax, 29% have parallax, and 25% have negative parallax.  Negative parallax is a problem for the a-centrists (as he calls them), so they conveniently just discard these as "errors".
Quote
The phenomenon of stellar parallax is not what we have been generally led to believe, because in exactly the same way that Eddington 'proved' Einstein's General Theory of Relativity in 1919 by rejecting, omitting or deleting 60% of his measurement data on the bending of starlight, so modern astrophysics maintains the misconception that parallax 'proves' the Kopernikan philosophy of the World hurtling around the Sun, by ignoring and dismissing the entire dataset of negative parallax measurements.

I've also never really seen it taken into account that in a period of a year, modern sciences claims that the earth would move about 11.5 BILLION miles through through the universe.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Yeti on July 15, 2022, 07:45:29 PM
Here's what Dr. Sugenis has to say about it in Geocentrism 101, p. 64-65:
Quote
Since the geocentric star field is offset from the Earth by 1 astronomical unit, then, as the star field rotates around the Earth on a 93 million mile radius, it will produce the same circular and elliptical formations of Gamma Draconis as that which is claimed for the heliocentric system.

Yes, this is what I understood. The problem is that, if the geocentric star field is offset from the earth by some amount, then the earth is not the center of the universe. To be the center of a revolving system means that the system maintains the same distance from the center, like the spokes of a wheel.

In other words, he seems to admit that the stars rotate around the sun in such a way that they maintain the same distance constantly from the sun, not the earth. If that is the case, then the sun and not the earth would be the center of the universe.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on July 15, 2022, 08:14:17 PM
... the sun and not the earth would be the center of the universe.

That proposition was condemned as heretical by the Holy Office.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Yeti on July 15, 2022, 08:51:07 PM
That proposition was condemned as heretical by the Holy Office.
Are you talking about the condemnation of Galileo? Wasn't that reversed on some level?

I feel like I'm stepping into a bear trap here, but ... honestly, I've never read any account of the Galileo case and its subsequent history that really made any sense to me at all, on either side of the question.

What if we leave aside the theological aspect of this? Wouldn't the sun be the center of the universe if the stars rotate around the sun and not the earth? I mean, how would you define the word "center" otherwise?
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 15, 2022, 09:08:16 PM
Heliocentrism is freemasonic, satanic paganism.  Geocentrism is catholic and biblical.  
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on July 15, 2022, 09:16:30 PM
That proposition was condemned as heretical by the Holy Office.
You might want to look at the link below by MHFM on the matter of Geocentrism and the Holy Office. It's a good proof that the Holy Office itself is not protected in its decrees as would a teaching by the Pope on Faith or Morals or those teachings which are part of the authentic Magisterium of the Church.

Further, unrelated specifically to Geocentrism, they get into this because of the condemnation the Holy Office raised against Fr. Feeney with Card. Cushing's heretical letter Suprema haec sacra. Which, if the Holy Office is infallible, then the condemnation of Fr. Feeney would in fact be true and we are heretics for not believing that non-Catholics can be saved outside of the Church without baptism.

https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/the-holy-office-geocentrism-fr-feeney/

I still believe that Geocentrism is the Catholic position, as, again, the Church Fathers are unanimous about it, as proved by Dr. Sugenis.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: St Giles on July 15, 2022, 09:21:51 PM
Leaving aside the geostatic model, would it be sufficient to still call modern science's model of the universe geocentric considering the scale of the universe? Of course by that logic the sun could be said to be just as much the center as the earth, but considering the size of the universe that would be an insignificant distinction.

A flaw with this line of thinking may be that modern science only knows about the visible universe, and therefore can't know for sure where we are located within its distribution of space and matter since we see equally far in all directions.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on July 15, 2022, 09:26:33 PM
Leaving aside the geostatic model, would it be sufficient to still call modern science's model of the universe geocentric considering the scale of the universe? Of course by that logic the sun could be said to be just as much the center as the earth, but considering the size of the universe that would be an insignificant distinction.

A flaw with this line of thinking may be that modern science only knows about the visible universe, and therefore can't know for sure where we are located within its distribution of space and matter since we see equally far in all directions.
There's an argument to be had from Einsteinian General relativity, which, if the universe is indeed what they say it is, would be the next most solid argument for Geocentrism
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on July 15, 2022, 09:30:52 PM
Are you talking about the condemnation of Galileo? Wasn't that reversed on some level?

I feel like I'm stepping into a bear trap here, but ... honestly, I've never read any account of the Galileo case and its subsequent history that really made any sense to me at all, on either side of the question.

What if we leave aside the theological aspect of this? Wouldn't the sun be the center of the universe if the stars rotate around the sun and not the earth? I mean, how would you define the word "center" otherwise?

It was never formally reversed, but just quietly stopped being enforced.

But I did raise the issue specifically regarding the question of the scope of infallibility ... since we were just arguing about it on another thread.

And I was actually using this to make the same point DL is making but taking a reverse angle.  Many dogmatic SVs attack Feeneyites on account of that [IMO fraudulent] docuмent Suprema Haec, but then do they uphold the teaching of the Holy Office that heliocentrism is heretical and positing that the earth is not at the center of the universe is grave error?
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on July 15, 2022, 09:35:45 PM
You might want to look at the link below by MHFM on the matter of Geocentrism and the Holy Office.

Right, I'm aware of the contention.  cassini here argues that the ruling was infallible.  I'm actually on the fence about this one here though.  Apart from the fact that I hold SH to be a fraud (never appeared in Acta Apostolicae Sedis and was only released several years after it was allegedly written, only after the Cardinal who had allegedly signed it had died ... why would Cushing sit on it for so long and why is it that his rag is the only one in possession of this docuмent?) ... SH doesn't declare something to be heretical and doesn't take a particularly authoritative tone.

I agree that decisions of the Holy Office aren't infallible per se, but this one actually declared a proposition to be heretical, and that would be an incredibly grave error if true.  It's hard for me to think that St. Robert et al. would misfired that badly on the question.  So, while not strictly protected by infallibility, I'd have to give it a lot of weight.

Of course, the proposition that it condemned as heretical is not even believed by modern science, namely that the sun is the center of the universe.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on July 16, 2022, 11:16:08 AM
Maybe I don't remember the argument very clearly ...

So what is the geocentrist explanation for stellar parallax, then?

If the stars rotate in union with the sun around the Earth annually (geocentrism), from a fixed Earth we will see the very same visible parallaxes. 

If stellar parallax proved heliocentrism, why does science no longer claim it does but now settle for relativity?

‘Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors believed, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same. This shows a defect in Newtonian dynamics, since an empirical science ought not to contain a metaphysical assumption that cannot be proved or disproved by observation.’ (Bertrand Russell: quoted in D. D. Sciama’s The Unity of the Universe, p.18.)

There is however, another use to which the Earthmovers put their one sided parallax proof for an orbiting Earth to; supposedly calculating the distances of stars from Earth.

Once stellar parallax was found and said to be a heliocentric fact, they then claimed the distance between the Earth and these near stars showing annual parallax could be measured for certain. Knowing the distances of the supposed Earth's orbit, and the distance of the sun from the Earth the distance between the Earth and a near star can be calculated geometrically.This way, they say,  The 149.5 times 1,000,000 km semimajor axis of the Earth’s orbit provides a base line for trigonometrically determining the distance of these near stars. This method, they claim, can measure stars up to 400 light years away.

In the geocentric system, with the rotating universe showing its stellar parallaxes, there are no such angles with the sun to calculate distances. So, even their stellar distances can now be dismissed as they too are based on the assumption that heliocentrism is proven. But as we know it is not proven as Russell says again@

‘Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors believed, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same. This shows a defect in Newtonian dynamics, since an empirical science ought not to contain a metaphysical assumption that cannot be proved or disproved by observation.’ (Bertrand Russell: quoted in D. D. Sciama’s The Unity of the Universe, p.18.)
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on July 16, 2022, 12:06:09 PM
You might want to look at the link below by MHFM on the matter of Geocentrism and the Holy Office. It's a good proof that the Holy Office itself is not protected in its decrees as would a teaching by the Pope on Faith or Morals or those teachings which are part of the authentic Magisterium of the Church.

Further, unrelated specifically to Geocentrism, they get into this because of the condemnation the Holy Office raised against Fr. Feeney with Card. Cushing's heretical letter Suprema haec sacra. Which, if the Holy Office is infallible, then the condemnation of Fr. Feeney would in fact be true and we are heretics for not believing that non-Catholics can be saved outside of the Church without baptism.

https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/the-holy-office-geocentrism-fr-feeney/

I still believe that Geocentrism is the Catholic position, as, again, the Church Fathers are unanimous about it, as proved by Dr. Sugenis.

Here is the history of how false science drove Catholics to deny the Bible reveals geocentrism issued by Rome itself:

‘In 1741, in the face of optical proof of the fact that the Earth revolves round the sun, Pope Benedict XIV had the Holy Office grant an imprimatur [1742] to the first edition of the Complete Works of Galileo.’ -- Church Commission on Galileo; 1992.

In other words churchmen convinced their popes to deny the truth and authority of the 1616 and 1633 decrees based on a lie that Freemassons had created by way of Newton and the Royal Society of London.

Next:
‘In 1820, Canon Settele lodged an appeal [to obtain an imprimatur for his heliocentric book] with Pope Pius VII (1800-1823)… In 1822 a favourable decision was given [by way of two decrees forbidding the censorship of ‘modern’ heliocentric books]. This papal decision was to receive its practical application in 1835 [under Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846)] with the publication of a new and updated index [emptied of all heliocentric books].’--Pope John Paul II’s Galileo Commission, 1992

‘For their part, Galileo’s adversaries, neither before nor after him, have discovered anything that could constitute a convincing refutation of Copernican astronomy. The facts were unavoidably clear and showed the relative character of the sentence passed in 1633. This sentence was not irreformable.’ --- Galileo Commission.

Here above, this papal Galileo study group continue the illusion ostensibly in the name of the Catholic Church. First of all they state with regards to ‘Copernican astronomy,’ that is, a solar system with its planets and the Earth orbiting the sun in circles, cannot be refuted as a fact, which is nonsense as the science of astronomy over the last hundred years has shown. Then they assert by stealth that it was this ‘optical proof’ that ‘showed’ the canonical authority of the 1633 sentence was ‘not irreformable.’ Here the papal commission tries to convince all that the 1633 sentence was based on an astronomical conflict rather than a Biblical revelation agreed to by all the Fathers, and by way of a non-reformable papal decree declared in 1616.

In other words, since the leaders of Catholicism conceded to the lie that the 1616 and 1633 decrees were proven wrong, it became critical for Catholicism TO DENY WHAT THEY CALL INFALLIBILITY. So, the rejection of infallibility is based on a lie.

 I will post this for starters.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: forlorn on July 16, 2022, 01:17:36 PM
For heliocentrism to work, the Earth has to spin at different speeds along all its latitudes to account for the universal 24 hour day. Yet the Earth is a simple body and a sphere, as simple as being the only one that it is, and it cannot spin at many different speeds at the same time. Therefore, heliocentrism is not possible, and some things are impossible even for God..
What do you mean? The length of daylight does of course vary depending on latitude. But a day is just measured as the time it takes the Earth to rotate, so why would that change?
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: forlorn on July 16, 2022, 01:22:36 PM
No Roscoe, the Dimonds are on your side, they try to show that the 1616 decree and the confirmation of its authority by Pope Urban VIII in 1633 and by the Holy Office in 1820 meant nothing by way of Pope Benedict XV's 1921 encyclical on Dante In Praeclara Summorum.
First a quote from this encyclical:

'If the progress of science showed later that that conception of the world rested on no sure foundation, that the spheres imagined by our ancestors did not exist, that nature, the number and course of the planets and stars, are not indeed as they were then thought to be, still the fundamental principle remained that the universe, whatever be the order that sustains it in its parts, is the work of the creating and preserving sign of Omnipotent God, who moves and governs all, and whose glory shines in a part more or less elsewhere: and though this Earth on which we live may not be the centre of the universe as at one time was thought, it was the scene of the original happiness of our first ancestors, witness of their unhappy fall, as too of the Redemption of mankind through the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ.'

The Dimonds say:
Here we see Pope Benedict XV, in a 1921 encyclical, declare that “this Earth on which we live may not be the center of the universe as at one time was thought.”  In all the discussions of the issue with which I’m familiar, I’ve never seen the above quotation from Pope Benedict XV brought forward.  People such as John Daly, Solange Hertz, Paula Haigh, etc., who have spent much time on this issue, were obviously unaware of this quotation.

There are only two possibilities: 1) St. Robert Bellarmine and the members of the Holy Office were correct that geocentrism is de fide; in that case, Pope Benedict XV was wrong (and was teaching heresy) when stating that the Earth may not be the center of the universe; or 2) Pope Benedict XV was correct that the issue has not yet been settled (and the Earth might not be the center) and St. Robert Bellarmine, many theologians of the Holy Office and the Holy Office’s 1633 sentence against Galileo, etc. were therefore wrong for declaring heliocentrism to be heretical and considering geocentrism to be de fide.

If #1 is true, that means that Pope Benedict XV was teaching heresy in his encyclical.  It also means that he and other numerous other popes (as will be explained below) were ignorant of the true theological status of geocentrism.

My answer to this is:
It has been asserted by certain men, like the Dimond brothers, that the above encyclical shows the 1616 edict was not an irreversible (infallible) decree because Benedict XV did not confirm a geocentric universe. The Pope was of course referring to Einstein’s theory of relativity of his time as the progress of science that held ‘the world rested on no sure foundation.’ In other words, a geocentric universe was still as viable as a heliocentric one. Moreover, the Ptolemaic system of the universe was the universe of Dante, and yes, the Pope was right about it no longer being the true system. Given the fact that in his time geocentrism was still considered falsified by the Jesuits surrounding him, one surely would have expected the Pope to say the Earth ‘is not at the centre.’ But he did not, nor that the sun does not orbit the Earth, leaving the 1616 decree as defined and declared. One could equally say Pope Benedict XV with the words ‘may not be’ did not accept the physical non-violent heliocentrism ‘of modern astronomers’ insisted on by the Holy Office from 1820.
Pope Benedict XV may not have denied that the Earth is geocentric, but that doesn't mean the 1616 decree was infallible. If it were, His Holiness or any of the other popes between 1757 and today would have noted as much.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on July 16, 2022, 03:31:20 PM
Pope Benedict XV may not have denied that the Earth is geocentric, but that doesn't mean the 1616 decree was infallible. If it were, His Holiness or any of the other popes between 1757 and today would have noted as much.

No pope ever denied the infallibility of the definition and declaration of the anti-Biblical heresy of a fixed sun in 1616 by Pope Paul V and confirmed in 1633 by a second pope. All any pope did was to take heliocentric books off the Index. Pope Paul VI took all books off the Index but all the heresies in them remained heresies.

Very few know the details of the U-turn of 1820. Fr Olivieri, head of the Holy Office in 1820 admitted the 1616 decree was infallible. He knew this. So how then did Catholic churchmen have their infallible cake and eat it? He actually told his pope that the infallible decree of 1616 was a condemnation of a violent heliocentrism but that modern astronomers had confirmed heliocentrism of 1820 was a non-violent one. Obviously Olivieri had not read Copernicus's or Galileo's book in which both dismiss the old idea that if the Earth orbited all would be disturbed on its surface. This proves that Olivieri made up the lie about the infallible 1616 decree to leave it untouched. 

And that is why the 1820 decrees allowing books to be read always made this clear:
1820 Decree states: ‘The Assessor of the Holy Office has referred the request of Giuseppe Settele, Professor of Astronomy at La Sapienza University, regarding permission to publish his work Elements of Astronomy in which he espouses the common opinion of the astronomers of our time regarding the Earth’s daily and yearly motions, to His Holiness through Divine Providence, Pope Pius VII

But then in 1822 the Holy Office, issued another decree, actually applying penalties for not allowing the publication of books presenting the heliocentric solar system ‘according to the common opinion of modern astronomers.’
 
I will comment on tyhe Diamond Brothers denial of infallibility soon.
‘The most excellent [Holy Office] have decreed that there must be no denial, by the present or by future Masters of the Sacred Apostolic Palace, of permission to print and to publish works which treat of the mobility of the Earth and of the immobility of the sun [the defined heresy in 1616], according to the common opinion of modern astronomers, as long as there are no other contrary indications, on the basis of the decrees of the Sacred Congregation of the Index of 1757 and of this Supreme [Holy Office] of 1820; and that those who would show themselves to be reluctant or would disobey, should be forced under punishments at the choice of [this] Sacred Congregation, with derogation of [their] claimed privileges, where necessary.’
 
Now why do you think decrees of a pope would always put in the phrase according to the common opinion of modern astronomers? Because the decree of 1616, the infallible one, could not be touched as promised by Christ's Church. And the ploy worked. But as the Lord said;

For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest
 nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad. (Luke: 8:17)


Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Yeti on July 16, 2022, 04:14:08 PM
From Sungenis's book:


Quote
Since the geocentric star field is offset from the Earth by 1 astronomical unit, then, as the star field rotates around the Earth on a 93 million mile radius, it will produce the same circular and elliptical formations of Gamma Draconis as that which is claimed for the heliocentric system.


This is a contradiction. The center of a ball is a point that is equidistant from every point on the surface. For the earth to be the center of the universe, that would mean that the stars remain always the same distance from the earth as they rotate around it. So when Sungenis is saying the stars are offset from the earth by one astronomical unit, he is saying the earth is actually not the center of the universe.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on July 17, 2022, 04:35:10 AM
From Sungenis's book:

This is a contradiction. The center of a ball is a point that is equidistant from every point on the surface. For the earth to be the center of the universe, that would mean that the stars remain always the same distance from the earth as they rotate around it. So when Sungenis is saying the stars are offset from the earth by one astronomical unit, he is saying the earth is actually not the center of the universe.
First, why would anybody give your comment a thumbs down Yeti? You put your point across and asked a question.
My answer is that the centre of something does not mean the mathematical centre. From Earth we see the sun is one astronomical unit away from us. Now the stars must, in a geocentric universe created by God, be aligned to the stars, a ball of stars that circle the Earth every day and year. It is this sun-stars movement around the Earth that causes both stellar aberration and parallax to be seen from the Earth. All go around the Earth so the Earth is at the centre of this movement.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on July 17, 2022, 08:07:59 AM
First, why would anybody give your comment a thumbs down Yeti? You put your point across and asked a question.
My answer is that the centre of something does not mean the mathematical centre. From Earth we see the sun is one astronomical unit away from us. Now the stars must, in a geocentric universe created by God, be aligned to the sun, a ball of stars that circle the Earth every day and year. It is this sun-stars movement around the Earth that causes both stellar aberration and parallax to be seen from the Earth. All go around the Earth so the Earth is at the centre of this movement.

My typo error. 'Now the stars must, in a geocentric universe created by God, be aligned to the sun,
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on July 17, 2022, 10:57:36 AM
https://youtu.be/Hgq3DzPg1hI
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Yeti on July 17, 2022, 05:46:07 PM
First, why would anybody give your comment a thumbs down Yeti? You put your point across and asked a question.
My answer is that the centre of something does not mean the mathematical centre. From Earth we see the sun is one astronomical unit away from us. Now the stars must, in a geocentric universe created by God, be aligned to the stars, a ball of stars that circle the Earth every day and year. It is this sun-stars movement around the Earth that causes both stellar aberration and parallax to be seen from the Earth. All go around the Earth so the Earth is at the centre of this movement.
Thank you cassini. If I remember Sungenis's video, I think he explained parallax by a computer animation in which the stars remain equidistant from the sun, not the earth, and the whole system moves in a sort of orbit around the earth in a space that seems to be outside the universe. But if the stars rotate around the earth and the sun, in such a way that they remain always the same distance from the sun, not the earth, and this is the cause of stellar parallax, then isn't the sun by definition the center of the universe?

... no?

Is there any other geocentric explanation for stellar parallax than the one Sungenis gave?
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on July 17, 2022, 07:58:59 PM
Thank you cassini. If I remember Sungenis's video, I think he explained parallax by a computer animation in which the stars remain equidistant from the sun, not the earth, and the whole system moves in a sort of orbit around the earth in a space that seems to be outside the universe. But if the stars rotate around the earth and the sun, in such a way that they remain always the same distance from the sun, not the earth, and this is the cause of stellar parallax, then isn't the sun by definition the center of the universe?

... no?

I shouldn't think so.  If the sun moves around the earth, then the earth would still be at the center even if the stars move around the sun.  That's in line with the Tychonic concept.  As you know, I'm not convinced of this model, but assuming this for the sake of argument:

Let's say that you have the sun at the center, but then just a single planet out there, let's say like Jupiter.  Jupiter in turn has 100 moons that go around it.  Does that make Jupiter the center of the solar system because all these other things revolve around it?  Or is it still the sun, because Jupiter itself moves around it.

If you were to look at the universe along the lines of the Newtonian model (which I also don't accept), then the sun really is NOT the center of the solar system, despite popular belief.  What's at the center is the barycenter of the solar system, which occasionally (depending on how the planets are aligned) isn't even within the physical boundaries of the sun.  In that scenario, even the sun is rotating around the solar system barycenter.

But then when you expand outward, what is the center of the universe?  Well, it's the barycenter of the entire universe.  Who's to say that the barycenter of the entire universe isn't the earth, and that God doesn't magnificently, like some amazing clockwork, balance the entire rest of the universe around it, always keeping the earth at the barycenter of the entire universe?  We have Sacred Scripture repeatedly indicating that the earth is fixed in its foundations and does not move.  And the Fathers of the Holy Office who condemned heliocentrism as heretical largely leaned on a unanimous consensus of the Fathers that the earth is in fact motionless.

Then there's the notion of "mathematical center" of the universe (we're not really talking about the solar system really).  Where is that?  What are the dimensions of the universe?  What if the edges of the universe are not even regular, like a circle?

If you look at the Tychonic model (of just the solar system), then the center of motion is not really the mathematical center.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6laRU_BzhvU

Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on July 17, 2022, 08:37:33 PM
There's some great reading here if people are interested:
https://www.geocentricity.com/bibastron/ts_history/index.html
from Walter Van der Kamp

https://thenervousbreakdown.com/tag/association-for-biblical-astronomy/
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on July 18, 2022, 04:20:19 AM
There is another of Walter van der Kamp's booklets that is very important.

The M&M experiment of 1887 did not show the 30kms/s 'fringe' expected if the Earth orbits the sun. All it showed was 5kms/s. This 5kms/s was brought down further after more tests, a 'fringe' of inertia up to 98% correct expected if the earth rotated, or if the universe rotated. Heliocentrism needed the goose and the gander (30kms/s) result, but geocentrism needed just the gander (-5kms/s), a rotational inertia. So, the M&M test proved geocentrism,

But the Earthmovers were not having that and up to this day have tried to explain why the M&M test failed. This gave rise to Einstein and his STR.

‘Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors believed, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same. This shows a defect in Newtonian dynamics, since an empirical science ought not to contain a metaphysical assumption that cannot be proved or disproved by observation.’--Bertrand Russel.

So, Walter said, let us test this one is as good as another compromise on the M&M test. It works if the universe is confined to the Earth, sun and planets. But both REVERSED must also show stellar aberration and stellar parallax. Try as you can, you will get stellar parallax but you cannot get both reversals to find aberration. In other words, it means that the M&M test is evidence for a geocentric universe.


Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on July 18, 2022, 06:31:57 AM
The M&M experiment of 1887 did not show the 30kms/s 'fringe' expected if the Earth orbits the sun. All it showed was 5kms/s. This 5kms/s was brought down further after more tests, a 'fringe' of inertia up to 98% correct expected if the earth rotated, or if the universe rotated. Heliocentrism needed the goose and the gander (30kms/s) result, but geocentrism needed just the gander (-5kms/s), a rotational inertia. So, the M&M test proved geocentrism,

I think I recall something about this.  As I briefly understand it, he's saying that if in fact M&M had been invalidated due to the alleged "Lorentz contraction" or else relativity, then M&M should have shown 0 movement.  Or did I misread that or misremember it?
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: cassini on July 18, 2022, 07:19:14 AM
I think I recall something about this.  As I briefly understand it, he's saying that if in fact M&M had been invalidated due to the alleged "Lorentz contraction" or else relativity, then M&M should have shown 0 movement.  Or did I misread that or misremember it?

With their ether drag theory for an orbiting Earth redundant, the Earthmovers had to get the Earth orbiting again, by way of another ad hoc of course.  And that is why in 1892, a ‘brilliant’ Irishman called George Fitzgerald (1851-1901) suggested that all matter experiences a physical contraction as the Earth forces its way through the stationary ether, and it was this contraction that caused the F-arm of the interferometer to shrink and thus cause the resistance found.

‘Hold on a minute’ interrupts a first-year science student when discussing this nonsense at his university physics class in Trinity College Dublin. ‘We can easily check this out simply by measuring the F-arm and comparing its length with the S-arm and if one is shorter than the other you have a viable theory, yes?’ ‘Actually no,’ answers Mr Fitzgerald, ‘You see the ruler you measure with, will also shrink exactly the same extent as the F-arm, and because both will shrink the same relative to each other that difference in lengths won’t be detectable.’ ‘What’ exclaims our student, ‘even if I use a ruler made out of the hardest tungsten? ‘Yes, it would,’ says Fitzgerald with a straight face, ‘the mathematics show they will always be the same.’ ‘But that surely is nonsense,’ the student retorts. Fitzgerald replies: ‘Obviously my boy, you are not cut out to be a theoretical physicist, so I recommend you turn to some other career, like farming.’ And if you think he exaggerates Einstein proposed a 50% shrinkage. That, dear reader; is the ‘length’ the Earthmovers go to in order to keep the Earth moving.

In 1897, Michelson summarised the situation after his experiment failed to fin an orbiting Earth.as follows: ‘In any case we are driven to extraordinary consequences and the choice lies between these three:

1) The Earth passes through the ether (or rather allows the ether to pass through its entire mass) without appreciable influence.
2) The length of all bodies is altered (equally) by their motion through ether.
3) The Earth in motion drags with it the ether even at distances of many thousands of kilometres from its surface.’ - Swenson: Ethereal Aether, p.118.

Michelson’s hypothesis number two, the shrinking arms one, the one that came out of the same stable as Alice in Wonderland, was taken up in 1904 by the Dutch physicist, Hendrik A. Lorentz (1853-1928), and, although he could give no physical cause for it, he supposedly showed ‘mathematically’ that it was consistent with the governing equations - the electromagnetic equations. These figures had electromagnetic forces causing the moving particles of matter to bind together, even though there was no way of demonstrating his theory. Lorentz however, not being one to seek a reputation for nonsense, admitted later his equations had been extrapolated, i.e., if you know the answer first, then you can make up any mathematics that will give you that answer.  Lorentz is also quoted asserting; ‘Briefly, everything occurs as if the earth is at rest.’ 

 Michelson, we see, was desperate. His first conclusion is a viable theory if the smaller 3.5kms/s was not found. His second option is of course the Irishman Fitzgerald’s wacky ad hoc. For his third option he chooses the ether-drag theory that Sir Oliver Lodge seems to have falsified five years earlier in 1892. Incredibly however - for these men were after all, supposed to be the world’s leading physicists - Michelson omitted a fourth logical possibility based on the outcome of the experiment; 4) that the Earth does not move in orbit, but that the geocentric universe rotating around the stationary Earth every day could well be the reason for the interferometer’s original 3.5 kms/s interference found (a speed later found in 1925 to be 98% expected from rotation). Now unless all options are considered, the test-results are not being addressed according to the true scientific method.

Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on July 28, 2022, 05:47:24 PM
https://youtu.be/SoBtC9Sumgs
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on August 02, 2022, 05:41:22 PM
https://youtu.be/WKX-pO2Uaxo
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 02, 2022, 08:27:40 PM
Quote
There are only two possibilities: 1) St. Robert Bellarmine and the members of the Holy Office were correct that geocentrism is de fide; in that case, Pope Benedict XV was wrong (and was teaching heresy) when stating that the Earth may not be the center of the universe;
To be fair, if a pope uses "may not" in an encyclical, that's hardly a definitive teaching.  Not all encyclicals are infallible, by nature.  It depends how they are written.  Benedict's "openness to science" (similar to Pius XII on theistic evolution) is neither a teaching, nor a decisive statement.  In my opinion, both were horribly wrong for opening pandora's box but there is no authoritative nature in any of this.  In other words, Benedict XV was just wrong (as was Pius XII) and St Robert and company are still correct.


Quote
or 2) Pope Benedict XV was correct that the issue has not yet been settled (and the Earth might not be the center) and St. Robert Bellarmine, many theologians of the Holy Office and the Holy Office’s 1633 sentence against Galileo, etc. were therefore wrong for declaring heliocentrism to be heretical and considering geocentrism to be de fide.
The Holy Office of 1633 is correct. 
Quote
If #1 is true, that means that Pope Benedict XV was teaching heresy in his encyclical.  It also means that he and other numerous other popes (as will be explained below) were ignorant of the true theological status of geocentrism.
No, the 3rd possibility is that Benedict XV, like Pius XII, were either liberal or listened to liberal advice.  Their encyclicals were not heretical and neither were they authoritative.  When speaking on science, you can't judge such as a "teaching" in the same way as an encyclical on the sacraments.  Infallibility only protects faith/morals.  The matters of science (those discussed in the Bible) are part of Faith but also outside of it.

My opinion = they were convinced that "new facts" had emerged to possibly change the Church's views.  Theology cannot change, but science can still discover.  So since Faith and Reason are not in opposition, it is *possible* for new facts to emerge which can partially (but not substantially) change the Church's views...only in the realm of science.  That's why Benedict used "may" to denote theory and also why Pius XII said that "further investigation" is allowed on evolution.

But we know now that these "new facts" are lies and so all of this is water under the bridge.  We return to the Church Fathers and 1633 as our authority.

Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Tradman on August 02, 2022, 08:39:01 PM
To be fair, if a pope uses "may not" in an encyclical, that's hardly a definitive teaching.  Not all encyclicals are infallible, by nature.  It depends how they are written.  Benedict's "openness to science" (similar to Pius XII on theistic evolution) is neither a teaching, nor a decisive statement.  In my opinion, both were horribly wrong for opening pandora's box but there is no authoritative nature in any of this.  In other words, Benedict XV was just wrong (as was Pius XII) and St Robert and company are still correct.

The Holy Office of 1633 is correct.  No, the 3rd possibility is that Benedict XV, like Pius XII, were either liberal or listened to liberal advice.  Their encyclicals were not heretical and neither were they authoritative.  When speaking on science, you can't judge such as a "teaching" in the same way as an encyclical on the sacraments.  Infallibility only protects faith/morals.  The matters of science (those discussed in the Bible) are part of Faith but also outside of it.

My opinion = they were convinced that "new facts" had emerged to possibly change the Church's views.  Theology cannot change, but science can still discover.  So since Faith and Reason are not in opposition, it is *possible* for new facts to emerge which can partially (but not substantially) change the Church's views...only in the realm of science.  That's why Benedict used "may" to denote theory and also why Pius XII said that "further investigation" is allowed on evolution.

But we know now that these "new facts" are lies and so all of this is water under the bridge.  We return to the Church Fathers and 1633 as our authority.
From Alberto Martinez' book, this paragraph from a timeline of events regarding the Galileo and Bruno affairs.  

1885 – Father William Roberts publishes his book The Pontifical Decrees Against the Doctrine of the Earth’s Movement.  In this book, Fr. Roberts presents a strong case for the position that the Church’s condemnation of heliocentrism is infallible. He concludes: (1) Alexander VIII’s Speculatores was a papal act of supreme authority by which the pope, in the face of the whole Church, confirmed and approved the decrees with his Apostolic authority, and made himself responsible for their publication, that heliocentrism was false; (2) heliocentrism was false because the Church declared it a heresy, and whoever says an opinion is heresy ipso facto says that the contradictory of that opinion has been revealed by God with sufficient certainty to oblige a Catholic to accept it by an act of divine faith; and, (3) infallible teachings, even those ex-cathedra, do not generally generate any fresh obligation of faith, but protect and vindicate one that already exists.

Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on August 05, 2022, 09:57:48 AM
https://youtu.be/dEEBU1LtdrM
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Yeti on August 05, 2022, 11:40:25 AM
From Alberto Martinez' book, this paragraph from a timeline of events regarding the Galileo and Bruno affairs. 

1885 – Father William Roberts publishes his book The Pontifical Decrees Against the Doctrine of the Earth’s Movement.  In this book, Fr. Roberts presents a strong case for the position that the Church’s condemnation of heliocentrism is infallible. He concludes: (1) Alexander VIII’s Speculatores was a papal act of supreme authority by which the pope, in the face of the whole Church, confirmed and approved the decrees with his Apostolic authority, and made himself responsible for their publication, that heliocentrism was false; (2) heliocentrism was false because the Church declared it a heresy, and whoever says an opinion is heresy ipso facto says that the contradictory of that opinion has been revealed by God with sufficient certainty to oblige a Catholic to accept it by an act of divine faith; and, (3) infallible teachings, even those ex-cathedra, do not generally generate any fresh obligation of faith, but protect and vindicate one that already exists.
According to John Daly's article on heliocentrism (http://www.ldolphin.org/geocentricity/Daly.pdf), Fr. Roberts was a liberal Catholic who had major problems with the dogma of papal infallibility, and used the seeming about-face of the Church on geocentrism as a means of attacking infallibility, so it fits into his argument to argue that the original condemnation of heliocentrism was infallible even if it really wasn't.

In any case, that quote from Benedict XV pretty much does away with the argument that it's heretical to reject geocentrism. Obviously a pope can't say, in effect, "it appears geocentrism is not correct" in an encyclical, if geocentrism is a dogma of faith. It would be like a pope saying in an encyclical, "It appears there are four Persons in God." Such a thing is against the nature of the papacy.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on August 08, 2022, 10:17:12 PM
This guy's ideas are extremely interesting, kind of "out there" but not unreasonable. For example, the moon as a plasma projection of the flat earth (in negative) on the Firmament.

https://youtu.be/co_eCRT9BNc
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on August 09, 2022, 08:21:10 AM
In any case, that quote from Benedict XV pretty much does away with the argument that it's heretical to reject geocentrism. Obviously a pope can't say, in effect, "it appears geocentrism is not correct" in an encyclical, if geocentrism is a dogma of faith. It would be like a pope saying in an encyclical, "It appears there are four Persons in God." Such a thing is against the nature of the papacy.

You guys grossly exaggerate the scope of infallibility (in an overreaction against R&R).  There's no way some statement like "it appears geocentrism is not correct" comes anywhere near meeting the notes of infallibility.  Pius XII also said that it's OK for Catholics to entertain the notion of evolution.  You overreact to R&R's minimalist view of infallibility to taking it to absurd extremes in the other direction.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Tradman on August 09, 2022, 10:36:40 AM
According to John Daly's article on heliocentrism (http://www.ldolphin.org/geocentricity/Daly.pdf), Fr. Roberts was a liberal Catholic who had major problems with the dogma of papal infallibility, and used the seeming about-face of the Church on geocentrism as a means of attacking infallibility, so it fits into his argument to argue that the original condemnation of heliocentrism was infallible even if it really wasn't.

In any case, that quote from Benedict XV pretty much does away with the argument that it's heretical to reject geocentrism. Obviously a pope can't say, in effect, "it appears geocentrism is not correct" in an encyclical, if geocentrism is a dogma of faith. It would be like a pope saying in an encyclical, "It appears there are four Persons in God." Such a thing is against the nature of the papacy.
Daly's article certainly favors the idea that heliocentrism was condemned for heresy and the arguments are strong. I won't list them here. The arguments against the condemnation not being infallible were less persuasive. 1. It seemed only to be against Galileo, 2. never specifically said it was heretical (although they admit it was said other places) 3. did not define a doctrine and 4 wasn't addressed to the whole Church. I'm no theologian, nor is it necessary for me to argue in detail against the parsing of words this argument rests on, but even if technically true, the conclusion drawn would be in direct contradiction to the reason for condemnation. Why condemn what isn't heretical? How can a condemnation only apply to one man and no one else and the problem be solved if he abjured? I suppose there may be technical reasons for this opinion, but they don't add up to much. The churchmen discussed the doctrines heliocentrism contradicted and errors it promoted during the trial. Obviously, from discussion within the trial, along with the Bruno Affair and arguments and condemnations against others defending heliocentrism, they considered it all intolerable, an extreme danger to the faith as well as the source of innumerable errors, like reincarnation.  This reminds me of Anne Catherine Emmerich's assessment of the false notion of cosmology would be the mother of all heresies.   

That Robertson was a liberal has no bearing whatsoever.  He concluded, after intensely detailed work, that the condemnation was infallible and Roberts believed in heliocentrism which makes his conclusion all the more plausible. 

What's truly interesting is the people who suggest that heliocentrism can't be heresy. That's strange since the entire panel of popes, saints and theologians who expounded on the problems with heliocentrism at the time were extremely erudite and animated about the errors it produced and most notably for them, because it contradicted scripture. 

The devil may be in the details, but along with innumerable errors, there's another good reason to abandon heliocentrism: It can't possibly have been so deeply divisive and not be a danger to one's soul.       
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Cera on August 09, 2022, 03:07:17 PM
While wondering with great awe at the God of all creation whose attributes are infinite, we may still stand back in utter amazement when we contemplate the sizes of things in our material world, this material world which is a reflection, albeit limited, of the infinite greatness of God.  Perhaps, you will find as I do, the following site to be quite amazing as an aid in that regard: https://www.htwins.net/scale2/ (https://www.htwins.net/scale2/).
Love that link! Thank you Charity.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Charity on August 11, 2022, 04:20:01 PM
Love that link! Thank you Charity.

Thanks Cera.  I'm glad that you do.  Years ago just after it first came out and I first brought it to Robert Sungenis' attention he shared the same sentiment with me and he immediately highlighted it on his website.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on August 11, 2022, 05:01:29 PM
Daly's article certainly favors the idea that heliocentrism was condemned for heresy and the arguments are strong. I won't list them here. The arguments against the condemnation not being infallible were less persuasive. 1. It seemed only to be against Galileo, 2. never specifically said it was heretical (although they admit it was said other places) 3. did not define a doctrine and 4 wasn't addressed to the whole Church. I'm no theologian, nor is it necessary for me to argue in detail against the parsing of words this argument rests on, but even if technically true, the conclusion drawn would be in direct contradiction to the reason for condemnation. Why condemn what isn't heretical? How can a condemnation only apply to one man and no one else and the problem be solved if he abjured? I suppose there may be technical reasons for this opinion, but they don't add up to much. The churchmen discussed the doctrines heliocentrism contradicted and errors it promoted during the trial. Obviously, from discussion within the trial, along with the Bruno Affair and arguments and condemnations against others defending heliocentrism, they considered it all intolerable, an extreme danger to the faith as well as the source of innumerable errors, like reincarnation.  This reminds me of Anne Catherine Emmerich's assessment of the false notion of cosmology would be the mother of all heresies. 

That Robertson was a liberal has no bearing whatsoever.  He concluded, after intensely detailed work, that the condemnation was infallible and Roberts believed in heliocentrism which makes his conclusion all the more plausible.

What's truly interesting is the people who suggest that heliocentrism can't be heresy. That's strange since the entire panel of popes, saints and theologians who expounded on the problems with heliocentrism at the time were extremely erudite and animated about the errors it produced and most notably for them, because it contradicted scripture.

The devil may be in the details, but along with innumerable errors, there's another good reason to abandon heliocentrism: It can't possibly have been so deeply divisive and not be a danger to one's soul.     

Yes, I find it much more probable that this decision of the Holy Office is infallible than that Benedict XV's passing comment would be infallible.

There's no question that the Holy Office did intend to address this to the entire Church.  What, when the next guy came along teaching the same thing as Galileo, they would then have to issue a new decree?  And it does quite clearly teach a doctrine.  To me the biggest question is whether a decree of the Holy Office has behind it a sufficient plenitude of papal authority, i.e. the biggest question mark is whether the POPE taught this by virtue of his Petrine office.  To me, ratifying a decision from the Holy Office falls a hair short of that.

Nevertheless, I hold it improbable that the Holy Office could err this badly on a matter of such great consequence, and I'm morally certain that they were not in error.

But here's the kicker.  If there's widespread and well-founded doubt about whether something is de fide, then it's not de fide.  In order for something to be held de fide, it has to be held as certain with the certainty of faith, but (and you have to think about it here a bit) if it's not certain with the certainty of faith that it is certain with the certainty of faith, it cannot be held with the certainty of faith.  I believe that geocentrism is OBJECTIVELY de fide but I also don't hold that to be certain with the certainty of faith due to well-founded and widespread disputes about whether it has in fact been dogmatically defined.

And one last point.  In the Holy Office decree, heliocentrism was what was rejected as heresy.  Nobody really believes in heliocentrism anymore, where the sun would be the fixed center of the universe.  Yet the Holy Office stated that the denial of geocentrism was a grave error (but not quite heretical); it assigned it a slightly lesser theological note than the condemnation of heliocentrism.  Of course, infallibility is slightly different than de fide.  I believe that it's possible for a teaching to be infallible even when declaring something to be in error with a lesser note than that of heresy.
Title: Re: Sun and Earth
Post by: DigitalLogos on August 11, 2022, 05:10:48 PM
Yes, I find it much more probable that this decision of the Holy Office is infallible than that Benedict XV's passing comment would be infallible.

There's no question that the Holy Office did intend to address this to the entire Church.  What, when the next guy came along teaching the same thing as Galileo, they would then have to issue a new decree?  And it does quite clearly teach a doctrine.  To me the biggest question is whether a decree of the Holy Office has behind it a sufficient plenitude of papal authority, i.e. the biggest question mark is whether the POPE taught this by virtue of his Petrine office.  To me, ratifying a decision from the Holy Office falls a hair short of that.

According to The Earthmovers, both Pope Paul V in 1616 and Pope Urban VIII in 1633 condemned Heliocentrism and the Pythagorean heresies of Galileo. With Urban VIII universally publicizing the verdict:

Quote
On 2nd, July 1633, under orders of Pope Urban VIII, the condemnation of heliocentrism was made universally public, not just confined to Galileo alone as some apologists would argue later. Copies of the sentence and Galileo’s abjuration were sent to all vicar nuncios and inquisitors who in turn made them known to professors of philosophy and theology throughout the Catholic world. - Prologue, p. 9