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Author Topic: Sun and Earth  (Read 14647 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Sun and Earth
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2022, 05:11:01 PM »
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  • Perhaps he meant the observable objects within the universe move in a toroidal orbit? Given that the background of the universe, truly, wouldn't move into nothingness.
    Maybe I don't remember the argument very clearly ...

    So what is the geocentrist explanation for stellar parallax, then?

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #31 on: July 15, 2022, 05:34:08 PM »
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  • Maybe I don't remember the argument very clearly ...

    So what is the geocentrist explanation for stellar parallax, then?
    Here's what Dr. Sugenis has to say about it in Geocentrism 101, p. 64-65:

    Quote
    However, just as the geocentric system could answer stellar parallax by means of a reciprocal geometry, so was the case for stellar aberration. In fact, the alignment of the stars with the sun that provided the geocentric answer to stellar parallax also provides the geocentric answer to stellar aberration. Since the geocentric star field is offset from the Earth by 1 astronomical unit, then, as the star field rotates around the Earth on a 93 million mile radius, it will produce the same circular and elliptical formations of Gamma Draconis as that which is claimed for the heliocentric system.
    [...] stellar aberration not only produces a circular star trail for stars near the north celestial pole, but it also produces elliptical trails for stars at a lower declination. For example, for a star situated at a 45 degree declination with respect to the Earth, its star trail over the course of a year would resemble the typical ellipse. But for a star situated at the equatorial celestial plane, its star trail would look like a hyperbola or straight line. These various formations will be exactly the same in both the heliocentric and geocentric systems for the same star.
    Thus, neither stellar parallax nor stellar aberration could prove the heliocentric system. This fact was recognized in 1901 by the famous physicist Henri Poincare:
    Quote
    The observation of the aberration show us, therefore, not the movement of the earth, but the variation of this movement; they cannot, therefore, give us information about the absolute motion of the earth.

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #32 on: July 15, 2022, 06:17:02 PM »
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  • Here's a good discussion of parallax:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20100826022827/http://www.realityreviewed.com/Negative%20parallax.htm

    written by:
    Dr. Neville Thomas Jones, Ph.D., D.I.C., M.Sc.(Phys), M.Sc.(Comp), B.Sc.(Hons),
    formerly of the Clarendon Laboratory, Oxford University, England.

    Roughly 46% of stars have no parallax, 29% have parallax, and 25% have negative parallax.  Negative parallax is a problem for the a-centrists (as he calls them), so they conveniently just discard these as "errors".
    Quote
    The phenomenon of stellar parallax is not what we have been generally led to believe, because in exactly the same way that Eddington 'proved' Einstein's General Theory of Relativity in 1919 by rejecting, omitting or deleting 60% of his measurement data on the bending of starlight, so modern astrophysics maintains the misconception that parallax 'proves' the Kopernikan philosophy of the World hurtling around the Sun, by ignoring and dismissing the entire dataset of negative parallax measurements.

    I've also never really seen it taken into account that in a period of a year, modern sciences claims that the earth would move about 11.5 BILLION miles through through the universe.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #33 on: July 15, 2022, 07:45:29 PM »
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  • Here's what Dr. Sugenis has to say about it in Geocentrism 101, p. 64-65:
    Quote
    Since the geocentric star field is offset from the Earth by 1 astronomical unit, then, as the star field rotates around the Earth on a 93 million mile radius, it will produce the same circular and elliptical formations of Gamma Draconis as that which is claimed for the heliocentric system.

    Yes, this is what I understood. The problem is that, if the geocentric star field is offset from the earth by some amount, then the earth is not the center of the universe. To be the center of a revolving system means that the system maintains the same distance from the center, like the spokes of a wheel.

    In other words, he seems to admit that the stars rotate around the sun in such a way that they maintain the same distance constantly from the sun, not the earth. If that is the case, then the sun and not the earth would be the center of the universe.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #34 on: July 15, 2022, 08:14:17 PM »
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  • ... the sun and not the earth would be the center of the universe.

    That proposition was condemned as heretical by the Holy Office.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #35 on: July 15, 2022, 08:51:07 PM »
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  • That proposition was condemned as heretical by the Holy Office.
    Are you talking about the condemnation of Galileo? Wasn't that reversed on some level?

    I feel like I'm stepping into a bear trap here, but ... honestly, I've never read any account of the Galileo case and its subsequent history that really made any sense to me at all, on either side of the question.

    What if we leave aside the theological aspect of this? Wouldn't the sun be the center of the universe if the stars rotate around the sun and not the earth? I mean, how would you define the word "center" otherwise?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #36 on: July 15, 2022, 09:08:16 PM »
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  • Heliocentrism is freemasonic, satanic paganism.  Geocentrism is catholic and biblical.  

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #37 on: July 15, 2022, 09:16:30 PM »
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  • That proposition was condemned as heretical by the Holy Office.
    You might want to look at the link below by MHFM on the matter of Geocentrism and the Holy Office. It's a good proof that the Holy Office itself is not protected in its decrees as would a teaching by the Pope on Faith or Morals or those teachings which are part of the authentic Magisterium of the Church.

    Further, unrelated specifically to Geocentrism, they get into this because of the condemnation the Holy Office raised against Fr. Feeney with Card. Cushing's heretical letter Suprema haec sacra. Which, if the Holy Office is infallible, then the condemnation of Fr. Feeney would in fact be true and we are heretics for not believing that non-Catholics can be saved outside of the Church without baptism.

    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/the-holy-office-geocentrism-fr-feeney/

    I still believe that Geocentrism is the Catholic position, as, again, the Church Fathers are unanimous about it, as proved by Dr. Sugenis.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #38 on: July 15, 2022, 09:21:51 PM »
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  • Leaving aside the geostatic model, would it be sufficient to still call modern science's model of the universe geocentric considering the scale of the universe? Of course by that logic the sun could be said to be just as much the center as the earth, but considering the size of the universe that would be an insignificant distinction.

    A flaw with this line of thinking may be that modern science only knows about the visible universe, and therefore can't know for sure where we are located within its distribution of space and matter since we see equally far in all directions.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #39 on: July 15, 2022, 09:26:33 PM »
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  • Leaving aside the geostatic model, would it be sufficient to still call modern science's model of the universe geocentric considering the scale of the universe? Of course by that logic the sun could be said to be just as much the center as the earth, but considering the size of the universe that would be an insignificant distinction.

    A flaw with this line of thinking may be that modern science only knows about the visible universe, and therefore can't know for sure where we are located within its distribution of space and matter since we see equally far in all directions.
    There's an argument to be had from Einsteinian General relativity, which, if the universe is indeed what they say it is, would be the next most solid argument for Geocentrism
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #40 on: July 15, 2022, 09:30:52 PM »
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  • Are you talking about the condemnation of Galileo? Wasn't that reversed on some level?

    I feel like I'm stepping into a bear trap here, but ... honestly, I've never read any account of the Galileo case and its subsequent history that really made any sense to me at all, on either side of the question.

    What if we leave aside the theological aspect of this? Wouldn't the sun be the center of the universe if the stars rotate around the sun and not the earth? I mean, how would you define the word "center" otherwise?

    It was never formally reversed, but just quietly stopped being enforced.

    But I did raise the issue specifically regarding the question of the scope of infallibility ... since we were just arguing about it on another thread.

    And I was actually using this to make the same point DL is making but taking a reverse angle.  Many dogmatic SVs attack Feeneyites on account of that [IMO fraudulent] docuмent Suprema Haec, but then do they uphold the teaching of the Holy Office that heliocentrism is heretical and positing that the earth is not at the center of the universe is grave error?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #41 on: July 15, 2022, 09:35:45 PM »
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  • You might want to look at the link below by MHFM on the matter of Geocentrism and the Holy Office.

    Right, I'm aware of the contention.  cassini here argues that the ruling was infallible.  I'm actually on the fence about this one here though.  Apart from the fact that I hold SH to be a fraud (never appeared in Acta Apostolicae Sedis and was only released several years after it was allegedly written, only after the Cardinal who had allegedly signed it had died ... why would Cushing sit on it for so long and why is it that his rag is the only one in possession of this docuмent?) ... SH doesn't declare something to be heretical and doesn't take a particularly authoritative tone.

    I agree that decisions of the Holy Office aren't infallible per se, but this one actually declared a proposition to be heretical, and that would be an incredibly grave error if true.  It's hard for me to think that St. Robert et al. would misfired that badly on the question.  So, while not strictly protected by infallibility, I'd have to give it a lot of weight.

    Of course, the proposition that it condemned as heretical is not even believed by modern science, namely that the sun is the center of the universe.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #42 on: July 16, 2022, 11:16:08 AM »
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  • Maybe I don't remember the argument very clearly ...

    So what is the geocentrist explanation for stellar parallax, then?

    If the stars rotate in union with the sun around the Earth annually (geocentrism), from a fixed Earth we will see the very same visible parallaxes. 

    If stellar parallax proved heliocentrism, why does science no longer claim it does but now settle for relativity?

    ‘Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors believed, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same. This shows a defect in Newtonian dynamics, since an empirical science ought not to contain a metaphysical assumption that cannot be proved or disproved by observation.’ (Bertrand Russell: quoted in D. D. Sciama’s The Unity of the Universe, p.18.)

    There is however, another use to which the Earthmovers put their one sided parallax proof for an orbiting Earth to; supposedly calculating the distances of stars from Earth.

    Once stellar parallax was found and said to be a heliocentric fact, they then claimed the distance between the Earth and these near stars showing annual parallax could be measured for certain. Knowing the distances of the supposed Earth's orbit, and the distance of the sun from the Earth the distance between the Earth and a near star can be calculated geometrically.This way, they say,  The 149.5 times 1,000,000 km semimajor axis of the Earth’s orbit provides a base line for trigonometrically determining the distance of these near stars. This method, they claim, can measure stars up to 400 light years away.

    In the geocentric system, with the rotating universe showing its stellar parallaxes, there are no such angles with the sun to calculate distances. So, even their stellar distances can now be dismissed as they too are based on the assumption that heliocentrism is proven. But as we know it is not proven as Russell says again@

    ‘Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors believed, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same. This shows a defect in Newtonian dynamics, since an empirical science ought not to contain a metaphysical assumption that cannot be proved or disproved by observation.’ (Bertrand Russell: quoted in D. D. Sciama’s The Unity of the Universe, p.18.)

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #43 on: July 16, 2022, 12:06:09 PM »
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  • You might want to look at the link below by MHFM on the matter of Geocentrism and the Holy Office. It's a good proof that the Holy Office itself is not protected in its decrees as would a teaching by the Pope on Faith or Morals or those teachings which are part of the authentic Magisterium of the Church.

    Further, unrelated specifically to Geocentrism, they get into this because of the condemnation the Holy Office raised against Fr. Feeney with Card. Cushing's heretical letter Suprema haec sacra. Which, if the Holy Office is infallible, then the condemnation of Fr. Feeney would in fact be true and we are heretics for not believing that non-Catholics can be saved outside of the Church without baptism.

    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/the-holy-office-geocentrism-fr-feeney/

    I still believe that Geocentrism is the Catholic position, as, again, the Church Fathers are unanimous about it, as proved by Dr. Sugenis.

    Here is the history of how false science drove Catholics to deny the Bible reveals geocentrism issued by Rome itself:

    ‘In 1741, in the face of optical proof of the fact that the Earth revolves round the sun, Pope Benedict XIV had the Holy Office grant an imprimatur [1742] to the first edition of the Complete Works of Galileo.’ -- Church Commission on Galileo; 1992.

    In other words churchmen convinced their popes to deny the truth and authority of the 1616 and 1633 decrees based on a lie that Freemassons had created by way of Newton and the Royal Society of London.

    Next:
    ‘In 1820, Canon Settele lodged an appeal [to obtain an imprimatur for his heliocentric book] with Pope Pius VII (1800-1823)… In 1822 a favourable decision was given [by way of two decrees forbidding the censorship of ‘modern’ heliocentric books]. This papal decision was to receive its practical application in 1835 [under Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846)] with the publication of a new and updated index [emptied of all heliocentric books].’--Pope John Paul II’s Galileo Commission, 1992

    ‘For their part, Galileo’s adversaries, neither before nor after him, have discovered anything that could constitute a convincing refutation of Copernican astronomy. The facts were unavoidably clear and showed the relative character of the sentence passed in 1633. This sentence was not irreformable.’ --- Galileo Commission.

    Here above, this papal Galileo study group continue the illusion ostensibly in the name of the Catholic Church. First of all they state with regards to ‘Copernican astronomy,’ that is, a solar system with its planets and the Earth orbiting the sun in circles, cannot be refuted as a fact, which is nonsense as the science of astronomy over the last hundred years has shown. Then they assert by stealth that it was this ‘optical proof’ that ‘showed’ the canonical authority of the 1633 sentence was ‘not irreformable.’ Here the papal commission tries to convince all that the 1633 sentence was based on an astronomical conflict rather than a Biblical revelation agreed to by all the Fathers, and by way of a non-reformable papal decree declared in 1616.

    In other words, since the leaders of Catholicism conceded to the lie that the 1616 and 1633 decrees were proven wrong, it became critical for Catholicism TO DENY WHAT THEY CALL INFALLIBILITY. So, the rejection of infallibility is based on a lie.

     I will post this for starters.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Sun and Earth
    « Reply #44 on: July 16, 2022, 01:17:36 PM »
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  • For heliocentrism to work, the Earth has to spin at different speeds along all its latitudes to account for the universal 24 hour day. Yet the Earth is a simple body and a sphere, as simple as being the only one that it is, and it cannot spin at many different speeds at the same time. Therefore, heliocentrism is not possible, and some things are impossible even for God..
    What do you mean? The length of daylight does of course vary depending on latitude. But a day is just measured as the time it takes the Earth to rotate, so why would that change?