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Author Topic: St. Bede taught the earth is a sphere  (Read 1164 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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St. Bede taught the earth is a sphere
« on: May 25, 2018, 07:53:27 AM »
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  • Happy Feast of St. Bede. (May 25)

    In honour of the occasion, I'm posting the Wikipedia summary of his teaching on spherical earth. 

    The monk Bede (c. 672–735) wrote in his influential treatise on computus, The Reckoning of Time, that the Earth was round. He explained the unequal length of daylight from "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe." (De temporum ratione, 32).

     The large number of surviving manuscripts of The Reckoning of Time, copied to meet the Carolingian requirement that all priests should study the computus, indicates that many, if not most, priests were exposed to the idea of the sphericity of the Earth.[49] Ælfric of Eynsham paraphrased Bede into Old English, saying, "Now the Earth's roundness and the Sun's orbit constitute the obstacle to the day's being equally long in every land."[50]

    Bede was lucid about earth's sphericity, writing "We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth's circuмference will represent the figure of a perfect globe... For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides."[51]

    St. Bede was an important and influential Catholic thinker in many areas. His ideas were known and accepted throughout Christendom, including his teaching on the sphericity of the earth.  There was virtually no support for flat earth after this point.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Bede taught the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #1 on: May 25, 2018, 11:59:44 AM »
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    It's too bad you're reduced to Wikipedia for reference but even a broken clock is right twice a day. 
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    While it's not a big challenge to find historical agreement in the Church for a spherical earth, our current technological improvements puts a whole new light on the precise specifics of physical reality.
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    It's no longer a question of what's the general shape of the world, but rather which ellipsoid works better in a given region compared to other options. 
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    St. Bede had no way of ascertaining the annual change in the snowpack on arctic ice fields or the size of glaciers from year to year in Denali or the Swiss Alps. If he had had access to Google Earth he would have been delighted! But the possibility of such a thing probably never crossed his mind. 
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Bede taught the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #2 on: May 26, 2018, 01:01:25 PM »
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    It's too bad you're reduced to Wikipedia for reference but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
    It is a shame to use Wikipedia but I can't find an online English version of his works that has a cut and paste feature.  
    Here is a link for anyone who would like to see an original translation:  https://books.google.ca/books/about/Bede.html?id=YQjHoQAZKX0C&redir_esc=y

    One can search on the word "sphere" and one of the results will be page 97, which has section 46, entitled "That the earth is like a globe."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Bede taught the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #3 on: May 26, 2018, 03:18:59 PM »
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  • It is a shame to use Wikipedia but I can't find an online English version of his works that has a cut and paste feature.  
    Here is a link for anyone who would like to see an original translation:  https://books.google.ca/books/about/Bede.html?id=YQjHoQAZKX0C&redir_esc=y

    One can search on the word "sphere" and one of the results will be page 97, which has section 46, entitled "That the earth is like a globe."
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    Yes.
    There are many such quotes. Try searching for "sphericity" and "spherical" too!
    In particular is found on page 161, ONT = On the Nature of Things (without any copy and paste feature, etc....) :
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    ONT, Chapter 45: The Position of the Earth:
    ...The sphericity of the earth can be demonstrated by the fact that different constellations are visible in different locations (ch. 46), and by the variations in sundial shadows and length of daylight with latitude (ch. 47).
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    ONT, Chapter 46: That the Earth Is Like a Globe:
    Bede has the distinction of being one of the earliest Christian-Latin authors to state emphatically and unambiguously that the earth is spherical. Indeed, in The Reckoning of Time 32, he will spell out this fact even more explicitly: "It is not merely circular like a shield or spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions."57 Most patristic writers, especially Latin writers, accepted the ancient scientific picture of a spherical earth without comment. But some, most notably the Greek cosmographer Cosmas Indicopleustes, vigorously asserted the Biblical picture of the world as a flat rectangle of land poised over an abyss of water and crowned with a tent-like sky.58 This theory may have been known in Bede's England, perhaps through texts brought by Archbishop Theodore of Canterbury.59

       57  Wallis, The Reckoning of Time, p. 91.
       58  On the patristic reception of classical views of the sphericity of the earth and Cosmas' counter-theory, see Inglebert, Interpretatio christiana, ch. 1.
       59  On the knowledge of Cosmas Indicopleustes in Anglo-Saxon England, see Bischoff and Lapidge, Biblical Commentaries from the Canterbury School of Theodore and Hadrian, pp. 208-11; and cf. Neville, Representations of the Natural World in Old English Poetry, pp. 146-47.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Bede taught the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #4 on: May 26, 2018, 07:07:56 PM »
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    Of particular note from the above citation are the following (to be fair, this is a commentary on Bede, not his own original works):
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    -- Patristic writers contemporary with Bede made scarce mention of their acceptance of the sphericity of earth not because they were oppressed or afraid of it or ignorant, but because as a scientific theory they did not find it objectionable or contradictory to Scripture. In other words one might say there wasn't any raging controversy over a matter with no relevance to the Faith of Catholics.
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    -- While flat-earthers are quite fond of disparaging ancient philosophers and mathematicians because they were Greek, here we have one of their poster boys, Cosmas Indicopleustes, a Greek, with his own 4-cornered counter-theory earth.

    -- This counter-theory of Cosmas was by some considerable measure not commonly held (otherwise it would not be "counter" to anything) among men who paid close attention to objective evidence, and was perhaps little if at all known in the Anglo-Saxon England of that age.

    -- What the Irish or Scots of that time knew of Cosmas and his counter-theory agenda is left open for further inquiry.

    -- The counter-theory of Cosmos with "a flat rectangle of land poised over an abyss of water and crowned with a tent-like sky," utterly fails under modern scrutiny since we know that deep under the earth's surface water cannot abide due to the intense heat of earth's inner magma from whence volcanoes erupt.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Bede taught the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #5 on: May 26, 2018, 08:54:28 PM »
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    St. Bede the Venerable ---- Patron Saint of Scholars ---- Doctor of the Church.


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    Saint Bede the Venerable
    Saint of the Day for May 25

    (c. 672 – May 25, 735)  -- [This is one of the few saints Newchurch did not move away from the Feast Day of his death. One could say he managed to work a modern-day miracle surviving the shuffling cards of the Newcalendar scheme!]

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    Saint Bede the Venerable’s Story
    Bede is one of the few saints honored as such even during his lifetime. His writings were filled with such faith and learning that even while he was still alive, a Church council ordered them to be read publicly in the churches.

    At an early age, Bede was entrusted to the care of the abbot of the Monastery of St. Paul, Jarrow. The happy combination of genius and the instruction of scholarly, saintly monks, produced a saint and an extraordinary scholar, perhaps the most outstanding one of his day. He was deeply versed in all the sciences of his times: natural philosophy, the philosophical principles of Aristotle, astronomy, arithmetic, grammar, ecclesiastical history, the lives of the saints and especially, holy Scripture.

    From the time of his ordination to the priesthood at 30—he had been ordained a deacon at 19—till his death [d. 62], Bede was ever occupied with learning, writing, and teaching. Besides the many books that he copied, he composed 45 of his own, including 30 commentaries on books of the Bible. [Averaging 1 book every 9 months, without a word processor!]

    His Ecclesiastical History of the English People is commonly regarded as of decisive importance in the art and science of writing history. A unique era was coming to an end at the time of Bede’s death: It had fulfilled its purpose of preparing Western Christianity to assimilate the non-Roman barbarian North. Bede recognized the opening to a new day in the life of the Church even as it was happening.

    Although eagerly sought by kings and other notables, even Pope Sergius, Bede managed to remain in his own monastery until his death. Only once did he leave for a few months in order to teach in the school of the archbishop of York. Bede died in 735 praying his favorite prayer: “Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As in the beginning, so now, and forever.”


    Reflection
    Though his History is the greatest legacy Bede has left us, his work in all the sciences, especially in Scripture, should not be overlooked. During his last Lent, Bede worked on a translation of the Gospel of Saint John into English, completing it the day he died. But of this work “to break the word to the poor and unlearned” nothing remains today.


    Saint Bede the Venerable is the Patron Saint of:
    Scholars
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    There is a parish Church in my area named "Venerable Bede" which I thought was a bit unusual for a parish name. (In my experience by "venerable" would be implied the first stage toward canonization -- followed by beatification "Blessed" -- and "Saint," perhaps lending a somewhat less-than-saint aspect to its connotation.) So I stopped in there one day when I was passing through; it is located physically near JPL north of Pasadena, CA. I found a priest there so I took the opportunity to ask about the parish name. He said that St. Bede is definitely a saint, but he was traditionally and popularly known as "Venerable Bede" as far back as in his own time, so the name stuck. It has endured for over 12 centuries that way, so when this parish was founded there wasn't any reason to change such a venerable tradition -- he said with the hint of a smirk.
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    I don't see any mention of him being canonized Saint prior to his being declared Doctor of the Church by Pope Leo XIII in 1899.
    Nor is there any mention of him being beatified.
    So apparently he was Venerable by popular demand for centuries, and then skipped the next two steps going straight to Doctor!
    Stranger things have happened in the Church.
    For example, none of the Apostles were ever canonized but they're all saints.
    St. Philomena wasn't canonized but she was "raised to the altars" by Pope Gregory XVI.
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    (I'll refrain from comments regarding apparent canonization of recent popes.)
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    The Wikipedia article seems bent on debunking any connection to the apellation "Venerable" contemporary with St. Bede:
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    From Wikipedia:
             



    Bede depicted at St. Bede's school, Chennai  --  Depiction of the Venerable Bede (on CLVIIIv) from the Nuremberg Chronicle, 1493

    There is no evidence for cult being paid to Bede in England in the 8th century. One reason for this may be that he died on the feast day of Augustine of Canterbury [May 25th]. Later, when he was venerated in England, he was either commemorated after Augustine on 26 May, or his feast was moved to 27 May. However, he was venerated outside England, mainly through the efforts of [St.] Boniface and Alcuin, both of whom promoted the cult on the Continent. Boniface wrote repeatedly back to England during his missionary efforts, requesting copies of Bede's theological works. Alcuin, who was taught at the school set up in York by Bede's pupil Egbert, praised Bede as an example for monks to follow and was instrumental in disseminating Bede's works to all of Alcuin's friends.[134] Bede's cult became prominent in England during the 10th-century revival of monasticism, and by the 14th century had spread to many of the cathedrals of England. Wulfstan, Bishop of Worcester (c. 1008–1095) was a particular devotee of Bede's, dedicating a church to him in 1062, which was Wulfstan's first undertaking after his consecration as bishop.[135]
    ...
    Bede became known as Venerable Bede (Lat.: Beda Venerabilis) by the 9th century[139] because of his holiness,[37] but this was not linked to consideration for sainthood by the Roman Catholic Church. According to a legend the epithet was miraculously supplied by angels, thus completing his unfinished epitaph.[140] It is first utilised in connection with Bede in the 9th century, where Bede was grouped with others who were called "venerable" at two ecclesiastical councils held at Aachen in 816 and 836. Paul the Deacon then referred to him as venerable consistently. By the 11th and 12th century, it had become commonplace. However, there are no descriptions of Bede by that term right after his death.[8]
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       134.  Ward 1990, pp. 136-38
       135.  Ward 1990, p. 139
       139.  Wright 2008, p. 4 (caption)
         37.  Fr. Paolo O. Pirlo 1997 ...
       140.  Catholic Encyclopedia ...
           8.  Higham 2006
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Bede taught the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #6 on: May 26, 2018, 09:19:20 PM »
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    The agenda evinced by the Wikipedia contributors toward questioning and doubting the use of "venerable" for Bede during his lifetime is entirely based on their claim that there is no written record of anyone calling him such. Here is a difference in the Catholic approach to such things: we give equal footing and regard to Tradition especially when it is consistent through the ages. Just because nobody can find it written in a letter or book or inscribed on an 8th century stone panel doesn't mean nobody was saying it when he was still alive. I know for a fact that I have heard certain people alive today called "venerable" as a term of respect, but the fact it was said isn't part of anything written.
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    The website I first quoted above, Franciscan Media, says he was called "saint" when he was alive. That might be a bit of a stretch, but not really when we know of the fact that Padre Pio was widely referred to as a saint during his own lifetime, MUCH TO HIS CHAGRIN.
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    So if Ven. Bede had been called "Saint" maybe he would have taken it like Padre Pio did -- with displeasure and revulsion. 
    In fact, if he HAD been averse to being called "saint," that might have something to do with him having not been so canonized!
    Not knowing what Padre Pio's reaction may have been to a friend calling him "venerable," though, who knows?
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