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Author Topic: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere  (Read 20926 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
« Reply #105 on: May 28, 2018, 11:17:36 PM »
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  • "Science" today has gone off the rails and I'd rather be associated with a Catholic than pagans any day.  You seem to think that science is automatically objective reality.  Is that true of NASA science?  
    .
    Wrong. What's gone "off the rails" today is ridiculous flat-earthism.
    When you associate with flat-earthers you're associating with pagans all day long, not with Catholics.
    Objective reality is what can be seen and measured first hand, such as the spherical earth can.
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    All flat-earthers have to fear is sphere itself.
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    Flat Earth Society adherents can be found all around the globle.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #106 on: May 28, 2018, 11:23:14 PM »
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  • The propaganda of the pagans did indeed infiltrate and many people believed the model.  But that doesn't mean the earth is a globe as they claim.  And no, just because pagans were teaching globe earth for 1000 years, that wouldn't make it a dogma.  Obviously, it has to be a teaching of the the Church.  The Church never taught earth is a globe.  
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    Therefore, flat-earthers are attempting to infiltrate by way of the Internet, spreading their false-god golden-calf pipe dream.
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    The Church never taught the earth is "flat." And the Church NEVER WILL. 
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    You'll look back on this some day and laugh.
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    If you live that long.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #107 on: May 29, 2018, 10:34:14 AM »
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  • .
    Wrong. What's gone "off the rails" today is ridiculous flat-earthism.
    When you associate with flat-earthers you're associating with pagans all day long, not with Catholics.
    Objective reality is what can be seen and measured first hand, such as the spherical earth can.
    .
    All flat-earthers have to fear is sphere itself.
    .
    Flat Earth Society adherents can be found all around the globle.

    Its the globe earthers that hold the NASA/Copernican/Pythagorean/modern notion of the cosmos, so its the globers succuмbing to the indoctrination of pagans.
    The fear of the sphere is all in the sphere of your mind. 
    No one walks around the outside of a ball.  To date. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #108 on: May 29, 2018, 10:43:34 AM »
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  • Then why does Nofthath mention that Copernicus condemns flat earth in the first page?
    Why would Copernicus have to mention flat earth in the 1500's if EVERYONE knew it was a ball?

    That's a good question, which has not been answered.

    If "everyone knew that the earth was a ball," then the flat earth would not have to be mentioned. Though I suppose that the idea of who "everyone" is, is to mean only those who are highly educated in mathematics and physics, since they are supposedly the only ones who are qualified to address the subject. They believe that they maintain the right to speak for "everyone," even if not everyone agrees with them.  

    Catholics who do not understand highly advanced science aren't allowed an opinion, and therefore they can't be counted as "everyone." In fact, they don't count at all. Those who use scripture to show a flat earth, as the Fathers did, don't count, since they (we) were relying on Scripture, which has been "corrected" by science.

    And as "everyone" knows, science is always right. Science is the new religion, and it requires obedience to its dogmas.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #109 on: May 29, 2018, 11:30:13 AM »
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  • That's a good question, which has not been answered.

    If "everyone knew that the earth was a ball," then the flat earth would not have to be mentioned. Though I suppose that the idea of who "everyone" is, is to mean only those who are highly educated in mathematics and physics, since they are supposedly the only ones who are qualified to address the subject. They believe that they maintain the right to speak for "everyone," even if not everyone agrees with them.  

    Catholics who do not understand highly advanced science aren't allowed an opinion, and therefore they can't be counted as "everyone." In fact, they don't count at all. Those who use scripture to show a flat earth, as the Fathers did, don't count, since they (we) were relying on Scripture, which has been "corrected" by science.

    And as "everyone" knows, science is always right. Science is the new religion, and it requires obedience to its dogmas.
    Right.  Besides, what part of society hundreds of years ago wasn't struggling just to stay alive? 95%? What percentage of men were turning in upper circles of academia, or even attending regular school to learn earth is a spinning ball?  2-5%?  What regular guy had the time or ability to attend such learning?  Telling an ordinary man, that he was standing sideways on a ball, would not have made much of an impression on the level headed and well grounded.  Terms like "level playing field" meaning, playing fair, and the use of the word "spin" in lieu of the word 'lies', are some of the etymological fallout for attempting to tell a regular guy earth is a globe.  The signs of pressured indoctrination existed then, but only came to fruition in our century, when more people had the luxury of owning or reading books, and later even more convincing, after man went to the moon and saw the globe earth.  As the centuries passed, the upper echelon were brought around to globe earth, no doubt, but the majority, the ordinary man, was brought up to full speed only in the last 100+ years or so.  So saying that the majority of men of the past believed earth was a globe is the depth of ignorance.  


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #110 on: May 29, 2018, 01:03:47 PM »
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  • Its the globe earthers that hold the NASA/Copernican/Pythagorean/modern notion of the cosmos, so its the globers succuмbing to the indoctrination of pagans.
    The fear of the sphere is all in the sphere of your mind.  
    No one walks around the outside of a ball.  To date.
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    Non-Catholics all ready think Trads are kooks so you may as well give them solid proof they're correct!
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    Everyone with two eyes and a mind that WORKS can see the earth is spheroid, especially with modern technology.
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    The only thing flat-earthers have to fear is sphere itself.
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    The Flat Earth Society has members from all around the globe.
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    Remember the Firmarsament!
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #111 on: May 29, 2018, 01:09:29 PM »
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  • That's a good question, which has not been answered.

    If "everyone knew that the earth was a ball," then the flat earth would not have to be mentioned. Though I suppose that the idea of who "everyone" is, is to mean only those who are highly educated in mathematics and physics, since they are supposedly the only ones who are qualified to address the subject. They believe that they maintain the right to speak for "everyone," even if not everyone agrees with them.  

    Catholics who do not understand highly advanced science aren't allowed an opinion, and therefore they can't be counted as "everyone." In fact, they don't count at all. Those who use scripture to show a flat earth, as the Fathers did, don't count, since they (we) were relying on Scripture, which has been "corrected" by science.

    And as "everyone" knows, science is always right. Science is the new religion, and it requires obedience to its dogmas.
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    Non-Catholics all ready think you're a kook for being a Traditional Catholic. So go ahead and prove them correct.
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    Seal their condemnation of you as being off your rocker by giving them something they can sink their teeth into.
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    But don't come back here complaining to me when that happens. I've given you fair warning. 

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #112 on: May 29, 2018, 01:15:31 PM »
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  • As the centuries passed, the upper echelon were brought around to globe earth, no doubt, but the majority, the ordinary man, was brought up to full speed only in the last 100+ years or so.  

    So saying that the majority of men of the past believed earth was a globe is the depth of ignorance.  
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    Just because you're among the minority who (without basis) believe the Earth is "flat" doesn't mean it's been a widespread notion.
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    You have no reason to think flat-earthism has any truth in it.
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    All it is, is a fantasy, a pipe-dream, a Shangri-La dreamland of nonsense, the stuff of children's fairy-tale literature.
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    Were you deprived as a child of having fairy-tales to think about? How unfortunate! Maybe now you can catch up!
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    Try J.R.R. Tolkien for starters. Middle-Earth. Lots to think about. 
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #113 on: May 29, 2018, 01:37:38 PM »
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  • The propaganda of the pagans did indeed infiltrate and many people believed the model.  But that doesn't mean the earth is a globe as they claim.  And no, just because pagans were teaching globe earth for 1000 years, that wouldn't make it a dogma.  Obviously, it has to be a teaching of the the Church.  The Church never taught earth is a globe.  
    There is no magisterial teaching about the shape of the earth, neither that it is flat nor a sphere.  But Catholics, with the approval of the Church, believed and taught that the earth is a sphere, for over a thousand years.

    The medieval universities (starting 11th century) were Church controlled institutions.  They received their status through papal bull or charter.  These universities taught that the earth is a sphere and every man who attended university would have accepted the sphericity of the earth.  

    If this teaching were actually as opposed to Catholicism as you claim, why did the Church's official institutions for education teach it?

    It is not simply that "many people believed the model."  There is no evidence that anyone believed anything else.  All educated people, with the full support of the Church, believed that the earth is a sphere.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #114 on: May 29, 2018, 01:48:07 PM »
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  • That's a good question, which has not been answered.

    If "everyone knew that the earth was a ball," then the flat earth would not have to be mentioned. 
    I answered the question in post #72 of this thread.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/st-augustine-believed-the-earth-is-a-sphere/msg611429/#msg611429


    Quote
    It is clear enough why Copernicus mentioned it if one looks at the passage:

    For it is not unknown that Lactantius, otherwise an illustrious writer but hardly an astronomer, speaks quite childishly about the earth's shape, when he mocks those who declared that the earth has the form of a globe. Hence scholars need not be surprised if any such persons will likewise ridicule me. Astronomy is written for astronomers. To them my work too will seem, unless I am mistaken, to make some contribution.

    Copernicus clearly addresses an audience that takes for granted that Lactantius was wrong to mock globe earth.  Copernicus uses this common assumption to make the point that he does not expect non-astronomers to understand his theory of heliocentrism.  

    Offline happenby

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #115 on: May 29, 2018, 01:56:41 PM »
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  • I answered the question in post #72 of this thread.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/st-augustine-believed-the-earth-is-a-sphere/msg611429/#msg611429
    Copernicus, a devil worshiper, setting himself against Lactantius proves every point I've made.  The father of persistent globers is the Evil One, and his science is their bible.   


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #116 on: May 29, 2018, 02:00:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jaynek on May 27, 2018, 02:57:57 PM
    Quote
    Ever since I started posting on this topic I have said that there was no consensus among the Fathers.  

    Some believed the earth was flat and others thought it was a sphere.  
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    And exactly NONE of them had a telescope or any apparatus to measure celestial angles accurately.
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    What the ordinary layman today can know DIRECTLY by objective observation is far greater than any of the Fathers.
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    What the Fathers had to say about the shape of the earth is a moot point compared to what we have at our disposal today.
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    We have worldwide information at the tip of our fingers.
    We have theodolites and access to extremely high mountains.
    We have astronomers' tools that put theodolites to shame.
    We have satellite data and vast collections of astronomical observations.
    The Fathers of the Church had none of these things.
    If they HAD had them, there would have been 100% consensus in earth's sphericity.
    .
    Another in the long list of ignored posts was immediately after the above post #72.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #117 on: May 29, 2018, 02:06:27 PM »
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  • Right.  Besides, what part of society hundreds of years ago wasn't struggling just to stay alive? 95%? What percentage of men were turning in upper circles of academia, or even attending regular school to learn earth is a spinning ball?  2-5%?  What regular guy had the time or ability to attend such learning?  Telling an ordinary man, that he was standing sideways on a ball, would not have made much of an impression on the level headed and well grounded.  Terms like "level playing field" meaning, playing fair, and the use of the word "spin" in lieu of the word 'lies', are some of the etymological fallout for attempting to tell a regular guy earth is a globe.  The signs of pressured indoctrination existed then, but only came to fruition in our century, when more people had the luxury of owning or reading books, and later even more convincing, after man went to the moon and saw the globe earth.  As the centuries passed, the upper echelon were brought around to globe earth, no doubt, but the majority, the ordinary man, was brought up to full speed only in the last 100+ years or so.  So saying that the majority of men of the past believed earth was a globe is the depth of ignorance.  

    I agree. It is the depth of ignorance to say that the majority of men of the past believed in a globe earth. Most Catholics (and non-Catholics) were just trying to survive. What connection would they have to upper academia? Most of my forebears were farmers, in this country and in Europe before that. They had been farming for countless generations. They were very practical and had a lot of common sense.
    I agree that the fruition of indoctrination only has come in our century, (and the last?). Before that, I would think that the average man would have thought it odd that we live on a ball, or that we all must absolutely believe that we are on a ball. But since we all now must put our faith in "science" instead of what we can observe and read in Scripture, and because the media and school system does not favor religion, we must bow to the great science religion.

    I have to wonder what the professed globe earthers love more: the Church, or science?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #118 on: May 29, 2018, 02:29:43 PM »
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  • Copernicus, a devil worshiper, setting himself against Lactantius proves every point I've made.  The father of persistent globers is the Evil One, and his science is their bible.  
    .
    Are you trying to make a name for yourself at the expense of others' reputations? 
    .
    Maybe the problem is that happenby is a devil worshiper.
    .
    That would explain everything.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #119 on: May 29, 2018, 02:40:21 PM »
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  • .
    Are you trying to make a name for yourself at the expense of others' reputations? 
    .
    Maybe the problem is that happenby is a devil worshiper.
    .
    That would explain everything.
    I doubt that she knowingly worships the devil, but he must be pleased with the false Catholicism that she tries to spread.  Real Catholicism does not even teach flat earth at all, while in her version she makes it the main focus.