Quote from: aryzia on May 25, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

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Quote from: Neil Obstat on Today at 10:53:59 AM
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Take your eyes and try the experiments I described many times all ready. 
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Or, don't, and continue in your obstreperous nescience.

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I did. Besides being convoluted at times, they don't prove earth a globe. To be clear, every last one is an utter failure.[/font][/size][/color]

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You did? When?
Provide links to your description of your experiments.
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Where is the link to when you measured the angle between the quarter moon and the sun?
Where is the link to when you projected the line of sight from a full moon at midnight toward the sun's position?
Where is the link to when you charted the path of the sun setting during the equinox along an east-west landmark?
Where is the link to when you tested the angle above the horizon to Polaris at different latitudes?
Where is the link to when you carried a theodolite to a mountain top to sight the elevation level above the horizon?
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Or, are you actually providing yet more corroboration with your already-established obstreperous nescience?
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Still waiting for the links, aryzia. Don't think you can ignore the challenge, like Ladislaus.

Bump

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Emperor Justinian

The Cosmological Philosophy of Imperial Orthodox Christian Byzantium was Mosaic Biblical Flat Earth Cosmography.  In 'The Madaba Map Centenary 1897-1997:  Travelling Through the Byzantine Ummayad Period' Dr. Irfan Shahid of Dumbarton Oaks contributed an article entitled 'The Madaba Mosaic Map Revisited:  Some New Observations on Its Purpose and Meaning' which states the following on page 151:

"That Imperial Byzantium was also aware of Moses the Cosmographer in the sixth century is reflected in the fact that none other than Justinian himself spoke against the pagan Greek spherical view of the Universe and clearly implied strong support for the opposite conception, originally owed to Moses in Genesis, and held strongly by the school in Antioch, when he thundered his anathemas against Origenism at the Synod of Constantinople in AD 553."

Consistent with all Orthodox Churches, the architecture of the Hagia Sophia of Constantinople and all Churches which Emperor Justinian built is a model of the Cosmos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

The excellent, learned, and exhaustive Madaba Map Book containing the quotation above may be obtained through the Madaba Map website:
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/mad/index.html
 
The above quote in bold shows that Emperor St Justinian spoke loudly against the Greek pagan view of the cosmos, but even more importantly, the quote ties together the shape of the earth/cosmos, according to Moses, expounded upon by Cosmas (Severian and others), helps deny the strange notions about the spiritual world that Origen had begun to teach.  

Emporer Justinian is considered a Saint by Eastern Orthodox schismatics, not by Roman Catholics.  Apparently all your sources cited above show support for flat earth from schismatics.  

This is not surprising since the Eastern Christianity was more influenced by the school of Antioch, while Western Christianity (i.e. Roman Catholicism) was more influenced the school of Alexandria. This is the one that Origen belonged to.  (You never had any problem with Origen when you thought you could claim him as a flat earth supporter.  Now that you realize you can't, you seem to have discovered problems with his theology.)

There is some value to Cosmas's work in terms of his observations.  Nobody (other than flat earthers) holds his ideas on flat earth in respect.  Here is how the Catholic Encyclopedia explains it:

This curious attempt to harmonize a childish Biblical exegesis with ordinary phenomena and the current opinions of the time is at least superior to the extraordinary geographical hypotheses of that day. Aside from the fact that the theories of Cosmas exercised no influence, they are not of sufficient importance to affect the genuine worth of several portions of the "Topography". The value of these passages rests on the methodical conscientiousness of the simple merchant, as it is seen, for example, in the careful copy of the so-called Inscription of Adulis (Monumentum Adulitanum) which has been preserved to Greek epigraphy only in the copy of Cosmas. Cosmas, with the aid of his travelling companion, Menas, took a copy of it in 522 for the governor of the Christian king Elesbaan of Abyssinia, retaining a replica for himself. Of equal importance is the information he collected concerning Zanzibar and the Indian Ocean, and what he learned as to the trade of Abyssinia with the interior of Africa and of Egypt with the East. The best-known and most celebrated part of the "Topography" is the description, in the ninth book, of Ceylon and of the plants and animals of India. The work also gives much valuable information concerning the extension of Christianity in his day. The Vatican manuscript of the "Christian Topography" has explanatory maps and sketches, either made by Cosmas himself or prepared under his direction; they are of value as the first efforts of patristic geography.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04404a.htm

Every single time, flat earth is found in sound thinking, tied to Scripture, to Saints, to Fathers, to other Catholic teachings, even if somewhat buried in history by evil doers, yet always poking up through the ashes to show that the cosmology of the pagans is not only false, but to them, the foundation of their war against Christendom.  And flat earth is the foundation of the war against paganism.  

Globers think the popularity of spherical earth is what's most important for determining what reality is.  Such failed doctrine shows no respect for what is true, or what is related to truth, especially during times when truth is not popular.   Spherical earth depends on paganism, popularity, scoffing, indoctrination, nitpicking Scripture, etc.  Flat earth reaches to the foundation of Christianity, opens understanding and extends to teachings regarding the spiritual realm as St. Justinian's condemnations of Origen's spiritual misconceptions reveal.  Truly amazing!  

Belief in flat earth is not "buried in history" by "evildoers."  The reason you can't find references to it among Catholics after 700 is because Catholics did not believe in it.  The belief disappeared.

In Western Christianity (as in the Alexandrian school) there was no war with pagan science.  The ideas of pagans were not rejected a priori.   Rather they were examined to find what was of value and what could be reconciled with Christianity. St. Augustine used the imagery of the escaping Hebrews taking gold from the Egyptians to describe this.  Pagan astronomy proved useful for calculating the date of Easter. (This is one reason St. Bede wrote about spherical earth.) And, from 700 AD onwards, the consensus among Catholics was to interpret Scripture in a way that was compatible with a spherical earth.  

Spherical earth, incorporated in a geocentric model, is the traditional belief of Catholics for over a thousand years.  If you reject it, you are not fighting pagans, you are rejecting your heritage as a Catholic.

The following will probably slide over glober's heads but it shows the depth and dimension of the effects of pagan globalism on Christendom, shows some who fought it, and even shows some of the great Catholic Cathedrals reflect the flat earth because of Cosmas' book Christian Topography.  


^(Cosmas' works) flourished at the time when Christianity perhaps most entirely and exclusively controlled a major area of the civilized world; and he seems conscious, not of a feeble and barbarized mind, but rather of having all knowledge for his province. He was not without profane science, but he now saw it (and saw through it) in the light of theology, the crown of sciences.
REFERENCES:
*Beazley, C., The Dawn of Modem Geography, volume I, pp. 273-303.
*Brown, L.A., The Story of Maps, pp. 91-102.
*Harley, J.B., The History of Cartography, Volume One, pp. 261-63, 319, 348, Figures 15.1, 15.2.
*McCrindle, J.W., The Christian Topography of Cosmas, an Egyptian monk, Hakluyt Society, Series I, vol . 98, 1897.

*illustrated

This ^ statement shows that Cosmas' works were highly regarded in early Christendom and those works were associated with Catholic thought and theology.  Cosmas worked tirelessly against the pagan notion of the world in his day, which just so happens to be identical with the pagan model of earth accepted today. 

I left this part to address separately because I wanted to look at the source of happenby's quote.  I had trouble getting the link that she gave to load so I found another.  Here it is:  http://www.myoldmaps.com/early-medieval-monographs/202-cosmas-indicopleustes/202-cosmas.pdf

Her inferences from the section she quoted contradict statements from elsewhere in the essay.

The place of Cosmas in history has been sometimes misconceived. No scholar admits that his works had any major impact or traceable influence on medieval geographical thought. For, on the whole, its influence is only slightly, and occasionally, traceable. Its author stated his position as an article of Christian faith; but even in those times there was anything but a general agreement with his didactic conclusions. 

Other passages from this essay backs up my claims that there was no consensus in the patristic period.
 

Isaiah’s statement, “It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,” was regarded as one altogether adequate on which to found a theory of the form of the earth, and it was accepted by such biblical interpreters as Lactantius, Cosmas Indicopleustes, Diodorus of Tarsus, Chrysostom, Severian of Gabala, by those who were known as the Syrians, by Procopius and Decuil. Men, however, such as Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, and Philoponos inclined strongly toward the Aristotelian doctrine of a spherical earth. Isidore of Seville (#205) appears to have been a supporter of the spherical doctrine, as was also the Venerable Bede, who, in his De atura rerum, upholds the doctrine of a spherical earth on practically the same grounds as those advanced by Aristotle. 

In addition to the above mentioned classical/pagan writers, Cosmas also takes issue with fellow Christian writers, such as Saint Basil, Isidore of Seville, Origen and others who either avoided the controversy of a spherical earth or argued on the side of the pagan scientists. Some of his fellow Christian writers openly declared that it did not matter so far as faith was concerned whether the earth was a sphere, a cylinder or a disc. But this sort of rationalizing was not good enough for Cosmas. 

Jayne said:

There is some value to Cosmas's work in terms of his observations.  Nobody (other than flat earthers) holds his ideas on flat earth in respect.


Actually, Jayne, your sources are your problem because they are drawn from those who work against the Church, and you do it in the attempt to make modern pagan cosmology seem to look reasonable.  You consistently dip into a fetid pool to get your information rather than go to the Church.  That will always leave you on the outside of reality and truth.  You seem to confuse the idea that something being popular or respected is what is true.  Had you read the last post, you would be embarrassed to continue on this line of defense.  No one cares about what was or wasn't popular except that it can reflect another period of time for comparison.  One need to see the reflection of who was on what side before attempting to decide what's true.  Just because the flat earth truth became unimportant throughout the centuries due to obfuscation of the enemy, wars, poverty, civil unrest and other factors, doesn't mean it isn't true.  If flat earth was the belief of the Church at one time, then it is the truth now.  Antiquity is steeped in truth and modernity mostly encompasses lies.  Antiquity believed in flat earth.  Modernity believes NASA globalist theory.  Cosmas may not have been super popular except to the point of getting the message out.  Christ was born in a stable and hidden from most men for most of His life because popularity and respect has never been on the Christian agenda.     



Cosmas Indicopleustes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmas_Indicopleustes

  One of the greatest cosmographers of world history, Cosmas Indicopleustes was an Egyptian Christian of the sixth century AD who wrote an important book called 'Christian Topography.'  Indicopleustes means navigator to India as he was a sailor and merchant mariner during the first half of his life and subsequently became an Orthodox Christian monk at Saint Catherine's monastery in Mount Sinai in Egypt who published the flat earth book (Christian Topography) in AD 548 (translated into english in 1897 by the Hakluyt Society).  A copy of Cosmas's Christian Topography from the tenth century is on on display in a small museum at Saint Catherine's Monastery in Sinai.  It is opened to the page displaying the flat earth map of the world. This map and other fascinating ones by Cosmas are widely available on the internet and in a number of books about the history of cosmology already.

  The best summary description of Cosmas's view by far is contained in ten pages of the first volume of Professor Beazeley's three volume "The Dawn of Modern Geography" the first volume of which was published in 1897.   (I doubt this is on the web.)  I believe Cosmas's view is superior in general, but Rowbotham probably has him on the size of the sun as Cosmas merely argues that it is probably at least as small as a fifth the size of the earth, whereas Rowbotham calculated that the sun and moon are each exactly thrity-two miles in diameter.

  To briefly summarize Cosmas's cosmography, the four riverheads of the Garden of Eden are actual rivers that flow westward from the Far East where Eden literally exists and go underground for a bit and diverge into the various underground water streams of this world, and the main streams of which surface in the mountains becoming actual rivers in this world which flow into the sea (the Ganges, the Nile, the Tigris, and the Euphrates).  He also believes there exists a great Mountain in the north around which the sun circles once a day. The shadow cast by this mountain creates night in the part of the world on the other side of the mountain.  Among other things, the Heavenly Host of Angels keep the fixed stars rotating.

Cosmas Indicopleustes Significance to History of Cosmography

  Incidentally the second century AD Egyptian pagan Claudius Ptolemy's spherical astronomy was happily put to shame by the Christian flat Earth geography of Cosmas Indicopleustes and others before him like Lactantius and the Christians of Saint Augustine's time.  Ptolemy's globulartist geography was not to return to western education until papist scholastics were taught it by mohammedan scholars in the twelfth century Anno Domini.  Ptolemy's pagan astronomy was already quite unpopular by the time of Emperor Justinian in the sixth century due to previous Christian expose of its errors.  Cosmas Indicopleustes was the lightning rod that dealt the death blow to pagan Ptolemaic spherical geometry until it was revived centuries later by muslims and catholics.

Cosmas Indicopleustes as an Historical Authority

The scholars of the Ethiopian Church as well as the Syrian (Thomist) Churches of southern India all highly respect 'The Christian Topography' of Cosmas Indicoplustes and considre the book an accurate historical docuмent which is vital to the history of the Church in those countries  at the time when Cosmas wrote at the beginning of the Middle Ages.  

India

  The town of Kottayam in the southern Indian state of Kerala is both the headquarters of most of the "christian" groups there as well as the headquarters of more publishers, newspapers and bookstores than any town or city in the country which is why it claims to be the most literate city in India.  The most traditional of the churches in India is the Malabar or Malankara Syrian Church with its seminary and Patriarchate in Kottayam.  A self-published comprehensive history of the church from its Seminary states on the first page of its medieval history chapter that the most authoritative description of the church in India during the late roman empire and early middle ages written by a non-Indian is the 'Christian Topography' of Cosmas Indicopleustes.  Indeed, the reason he has such a surname is because he navigated Byzantine ships to India during his days as a merchant mariner.

  A massive and exhaustively informative book on Saint Thomas the Apostle and the exhaustive history and heritage (and archaeology, relics, ancient churches, et cetera) of all the Thomistic churches in southern India of all denominations which is published by the Roman Catholic church there is entitled the 'Thomapedia.'  The Thomapedia does not fail to make prominent mention of Cosmas Indicopleustes for the vital historical information he provides of Christians in India during the early Middle Ages.

Ethiopia

  Virtually any Ethiopian book covering the country's Christian history with significant information on the early medieval period also mentions Cosmas Indicopleustes as the most authoritative non-Ethiopian writer to describe Ethiopia at that time.  

  Western scholars familiar with Cosmas Indicopleustes praise him for the accurate and invaluable historical information contained in the 'Christian Topography.'  He is widely reckoned as the chief source of information on travel in the Indian Ocean and specifically Ethiopia and southern India at the beginning of the Middle Ages.

Influence of Cosmas Indicopleustes Upon Arabia and Byzantium

  The influence of Cosmas Indicopleustes in Arab lands extended well beyond the limits of Sinai.  The Orthodox Patriarchate Churches of Antioch and All the East are particularly noted for incorrigible flat Earth cosmology.  Several Byzantine Churches of Transjordan from the same century have maps which bear definite elements of Cosmas's Cosmography such as the Four Rivers of Paradise.  The most famous of these is the Mosaic Map of the Holy Land on the Floor of the Church of Saint George in Madaba, Jordan.  

  The Rivers of Paradise are also found in the Mosaic Map of the Byzantine Church of Jabaliyah in Gaza.  The name of the town itself links it to the Sinai Monastery of which Cosmas was a monk.  The Jabaliyah are a tribe of Bedouin who, unlike Arab Bedouin, are actually descendents of Greek Macedonian families sent to Sinai by Emperor Justinian in the sixth century AD to help the Monastery.  A part of this tribe also lived in Gaza in the city bearing the tribe's name with the Byzantine Church there.

  Cosmas was also the contemporary of the Byzantine Emperor Justinian.  His influence on the cosmological beliefs of the Emperor may be judged from the fact that Emperor Justinian himself believed in Christian Flat Earth cosmography but had the large Monastery of the Burning Bush built at Sinai where Cosmas Indicopleustes lived.  

------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Earliest Christian World Maps
& The Geographical Centre of the Earth

  Archaelogogists Eugenio Alliata and Michelle Piccirillo edited an excellent and exhaustive book concerning the Madaba map entitled 'The Madaba Map Centenary 1897-1997:  Travelling Through the Byzantine Umayyad Period.'  The essay 'The Madaba Map Revisited:  Some New Observations on Its Purpose and Meaning' by Irfan Shahid states on page 151


  "The connection of this unique Christian work of art, a map, with Moses has one more dimension especially important in this sixth century.  Although he was the great Prophet and Lawgiver, Moses was also the great Cosmographer, and as such he was very much alive in this Byzantine period especially in the sixth century, and, what is more, was specifically associated with maps.  

  "...Cosmas Indicopleustes, travelled in this region and wrote his 'Christian Topography,' expressing in an entire book the vision of the entire Cosmos as expressed in the Book of Genesis, and as a counterblast
to the pagan Greek view of the universe as spherical;  he also presented Moses prefiguring Christ.  Thus Moses experiences a strong resurgence in this century not only as Lawgiver, the model of Justinian, but also and more relevantly as a Cosmographer.  What is even more relevant to the theme of this paper is that his (Moses's) conception of the universe as interpreted by Cosmas was also expressed in maps, some drawn by Cosmas himself AND SOME BY OTHERS WHOM COSMAS EMPLOYED...

  Cosmas Indicopleustes is that ancient Christian cartographer who drew up the oldest known Christian maps.  These and their successors depict Jerusalem as the Navel of the Earth, the literal centre of the Earth.  The city of Jerusalem is located at the geographical centre of the Earth.  The city lies at the crossroads of Sem (Asia), Ham (Africa), and Japheth (Europe).  Biblical, Christian, and Hebrew tradition unanimously state that Jerusalem is the Navel of the Earth and place the city at the geographical centre of the Cosmos.   Strictly speaking, the geographical centre of the Earth is marked by an Omophoron on the floor of the Katholikon of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.  

  The oldest acknowledged extant map of Jerusalem is a Byzantine mosaic Map of the Holy Land on the floor of the Katholikon of the sixth century Byzantine Church of Saint George in Madaba, Jordan.  This is the famous Madaba map of Jerusalem unearthed in the Year of the Lord 1884, but not made famous until the librarian of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem visited Madaba to assess the map in 1897 and recognized the significance of this OLDEST MAP OF JERUSALEM IN THE WORLD.  The centre of the Map depicts the city of Jerusalem with the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in the middle of the city.  Consistent with the Flat Earth cosmography of the Church Fathers and Cosmas Indicopleustes, the eastern part of the map depicts the Four Rivers of Paradise which flow westward from the Garden of Eden into this world.  One can discern the rivers' names like Pyson which are labelled in the Mosaic.  The representation of the Four Rivers of Paradise in the Madaba Map is no different from their representation in the flat Earth world map of Cosmas Indicopleustes.

  The Madaba mosaic map was directly influenced by the Byzantine Egyptian cosmographer Cosmas Indicopleustes.  The Madaba Map book by Piccirillo referenced below gives evidence for the assertion that the Mosaic Map in Madaba was actually made by artists employed Cosmas Indicopleustes.  The 'Christian Topography' by Cosmas Indicopleustes was published in AD 548.  The Madaba Map was made in AD 560 - only twelve years later.  Furthermore, both the Sinai Monastery (where Cosmas worked and resided) and the Orthodox Byzantine Churches of Jordan (including the Church of Saint George in Madaba) are all part of the same Patriarchate (large Bishopric) - the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem.  Therefore, the fact that Cosmas Indicopleustes was himself associated with the construction of the Madaba Mosaic Map is well established.
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/mad/

'Christian Topography'
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/cosmas_01_book1.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/ct/index.htm  
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/awiesner/cosmas.html

Early Christian Flat Earth Maps

World Map:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/202.html

Tabernacle of the Cosmos:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/202C.html

Several Illustraions Redrawn for Clarity:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/202F.html

Monograph on the Maps:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/202mono.html

List of Several Treatises By Cosmas Indicopleustes:
http://www.tmth.edu.gr/en/aet/3/28.html

Jayne said:

There is some value to Cosmas's work in terms of his observations.  Nobody (other than flat earthers) holds his ideas on flat earth in respect.


Actually, Jayne, your sources are your problem because they are drawn from those who work against the Church, and you do it in the attempt to make modern pagan cosmology seem to look reasonable.  

My last post took quotes from a source that you provided.  Your post above, which you begin by lecturing me about my choice of sources, goes on to cite a big quote from Wikipedia.  This is scarcely known for being a Catholic source.

It is obvious to anyone reading your posts that your method of judging the value of a source is based on whether it supports your claims, rather than any sort of objective criteria.  One of your favourite ways to dismiss evidence that shows you are wrong is to claim there is a problem with the source.  You also like to claim that passages say something other than what they actually say.  When neither of these strategies work you just ignore the evidence.  And so, in spite of the massive amounts of evidence that I have presented in this forum, you continue to assert that I have not shown any evidence.  On the contrary, you are willfully blind to the evidence.

Spherical earth was a part of traditional Catholic cosmology for over a thousand years.  You refuse to acknowledge this fact because it destroys your entire rationale for being a flat-earther.  You want to see yourself as part of a small group bravely defending the Faith against evil pagan forces, standing up to persecution and mockery.  But you are not defending the Faith.  

Flat earth has never been a part of the Catholic faith.  It was an opinion of some Fathers before it disappeared, but it was never considered a matter of faith.  This is a fiction that you make up for yourself to be able to see yourself as some sort of hero.  All your zeal is wasted on a fiction rather than on the actual Truths of Catholicism.  You are not accomplishing anything for God.  All you are doing is making the Church look bad.

My last post took quotes from a source that you provided.  Your post above, which you begin by lecturing me about my choice of sources, goes on to cite a big quote from Wikipedia.  This is scarcely known for being a Catholic source.

It is obvious to anyone reading your posts that your method of judging the value of a source is based on whether it supports your claims, rather than any sort of objective criteria.  One of your favourite ways to dismiss evidence that shows you are wrong is to claim there is a problem with the source.  You also like to claim that passages say something other than what they actually say.  When neither of these strategies work you just ignore the evidence.  And so, in spite of the massive amounts of evidence that I have presented in this forum, you continue to assert that I have not shown any evidence.  On the contrary, you are willfully blind to the evidence.

Spherical earth was a part of traditional Catholic cosmology for over a thousand years.  You refuse to acknowledge this fact because it destroys your entire rationale for being a flat-earther.  You want to see yourself as part of a small group bravely defending the Faith against evil pagan forces, standing up to persecution and mockery.  But you are not defending the Faith.  

Flat earth has never been a part of the Catholic faith.  It was an opinion of some Fathers before it disappeared, but it was never considered a matter of faith.  This is a fiction that you make up for yourself to be able to see yourself as some sort of hero.  All your zeal is wasted on a fiction rather than on the actual Truths of Catholicism.  You are not accomplishing anything for God.  All you are doing is making the Church look bad.

Everything you say is false or unproven.  You have yet to show that spherical earth was a part of traditional Catholic cosmology for over a thousand years.  Also your OP has been proven false.  Your assertions against Cosmas are false.  Nothing you have said in this entire thread is correct.      

He is not recognized as a Saint by Catholics.  If you want people to think you are Orthodox, go ahead and call him a Saint.

Justinian was a great defender the Catholic Church and history about him has been tainted, which is sad.