Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere  (Read 20877 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jaynek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4170
  • Reputation: +2318/-1232
  • Gender: Female
Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2018, 04:57:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Haha - your paper says Diodore the Bishop of Tarsus in 378 warned against the grave sin of astrology and its connection to the error of spherical earth.
    It is an academic paper, not a flat-earther site giving cherry-picked proof verses.  The author is attempting to give an overview of all the opinions.  He describes people in the Antioch school who were against flat earth as well as other Fathers who were open to the idea.

    You are not somehow scoring points every time you find a reference to somebody who believed the earth is flat.  Ever since I started posting on this topic I have said that there was no consensus among the Fathers.  Some believed the earth was flat and others thought it was a sphere.  There is nothing in this paper that contradicts this or anything else that I have claimed.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #61 on: May 27, 2018, 05:03:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sorry, here's the link properly attached and linkable.
    Thank you.  

    Did you notice what he had to say about Cosmas?

    Quote
    It is worth pointing out that all of these authors wrote in Greek and that their cosmological views failed to exert any influence on Latin Medieval thought. This is particularly important to stress in the case of Cosmas Indicopleustes, whose work, after its initial “discovery” at the end of the seventeenth century, was often perversely used to prove that educated people in the Middle Ages thought that they lived on a flat disk under a vaulted sky.19 But there is reason to believe that even for their own time and place, the views of Diodore and Cosmas can hardly be taken as representative. Cosmas in particular was obviously well-acquainted with the spherical model, which he sometimes describes in great detail in order to refute it, and the polemical tone of his Topography suggests that it remained the dominant view in his own time, that is, even among Christians. 


    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #62 on: May 27, 2018, 05:13:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is an academic paper, not a flat-earther site giving cherry-picked proof verses.  The author is attempting to give an overview of all the opinions.  He describes people in the Antioch school who were against flat earth as well as other Fathers who were open to the idea.

    You are not somehow scoring points every time you find a reference to somebody who believed the earth is flat.  Ever since I started posting on this topic I have said that there was no consensus among the Fathers.  Some believed the earth was flat and others thought it was a sphere.  There is nothing in this paper that contradicts this or anything else that I have claimed.
    In his attempt to promote the globe, Nothaft emphasizes several proofs for Christendom defending flat earth.  He even admits that from 300-800AD any beliefs beyond the upper echelons of academia isn't quite clear.  Ha ha.  Just what we talked about before.  The people held to flat earth because of Scripture and didn't hold the view of those whose papers they didn't have access to.  Not only are Nothafts proofs for a sphere leaps in logic (against Augustine) he can't help but use the Church Fathers to attempt to prove the Church wrong.  What a loser this guy is.  Yet, like Dickenson White, he spills a little too much ink and slits his own throat.   

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #63 on: May 27, 2018, 05:28:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you.  

    Did you notice what he had to say about Cosmas?
    Who cares what Nutjob said about Cosmas, he's a spherical earther attempting to undermine the truth. Cosmas' exegeses on Moses and Scripture with regards to the Mass is clear, detailed and epic.  Not that the writer had any idea how important what Cosmas said was, or he would have tried harder to debunk it.  Instead he says no one listened to Cosmas.  Uh, wrong.  Some of the Fathers expounded on this as well.  People know flat earth is Scriptural and do not even attempt to hide it when globers say things like:
    "Both philosophically and cartographically Cosmas' ideas were strictly dictated by his literal interpretation of the Bible."

    About the Christian Topography
    The Christian Topography contains references to nearly seventy authorities selected from among philosophers, historians, travellers, doctors of the Church, soldiers, and statesmen. Comas' primary objective and motivation in writing the treatise was to discredit the "false and heathen doctrine of a spherical earth".
    Historian globers readily admit (only because they have to):
    "Christian Topography contains, in all probability, the oldest Christian maps available."


    Cosmas was well respected, his writings preserved in the Vatican library for centuries, and his maps are the oldest maps in the world.  They definitely take him seriously.  Only the globers say otherwise.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #64 on: May 27, 2018, 05:40:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In his attempt to promote the globe, Nothaft emphasizes several proofs for Christendom defending flat earth.  He even admits that from 300-800AD any beliefs beyond the upper echelons of academia isn't quite clear.  Ha ha.  Just what we talked about before.  The people held to flat earth because of Scripture and didn't hold the view of those whose papers they didn't have access to.  Not only are Nothafts proofs for a sphere leaps in logic (against Augustine) he can't help but use the Church Fathers to attempt to prove the Church wrong.  What a loser this guy is.  Yet, like Dickenson White, he spills a little too much ink and slits his own throat.  
    Nothafts makes a logical and coherent case for his thesis.  He is not "attempting to prove the Church wrong".  There is no reason to think he is hostile to the Church in any way.  He does, however, show that you are wrong which is not the same thing at all.

    He backs up the account of history that I have been stating:  There was no consensus in the Patristic period.  Once St. Bede clearly taught spherical earth around 700 AD that view became the consensus of educated Catholics (and we can only speculate about the uneducated ones).

    You have not been able to produce a single quote in favour of flat earth from after 700.  Not from a Saint, a Doctor, a Pope, or anyone with any sort of authority.  The closest you come is to pretend that condemnations of heliocentrism somehow imply that the Church had a problem with spherical earth.  This is obviously wrong since geocentrism at the time of Galileo incorporated a sphericical earth.

    Belief in flat earth virtually disappeared by 700.  It was revived by heretics in the mid 1800s.  It cannot reasonably be seen as an integral part of Catholicism just because some of the Fathers believed it.


    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #65 on: May 27, 2018, 05:48:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Who cares what Nutjob said about Cosmas, he's a spherical earther attempting to undermine the truth. Cosmas' exegeses on Moses and Scripture with regards to the Mass is clear, detailed and epic.  Not that the writer had any idea how important what Cosmas said was, or he would have tried harder to debunk it.  Instead he says no one listened to Cosmas.  Uh, wrong.  Some of the Fathers expounded on this as well.  People know flat earth is Scriptural and do not even attempt to hide it when globers say things like:
    "Both philosophically and cartographically Cosmas' ideas were strictly dictated by his literal interpretation of the Bible."

    About the Christian Topography
    The Christian Topography contains references to nearly seventy authorities selected from among philosophers, historians, travellers, doctors of the Church, soldiers, and statesmen. Comas' primary objective and motivation in writing the treatise was to discredit the "false and heathen doctrine of a spherical earth".
    Historian globers readily admit (only because they have to):
    "Christian Topography contains, in all probability, the oldest Christian maps available."


    Cosmas was well respected, his writings preserved in the Vatican library for centuries, and his maps are the oldest maps in the world.  They definitely take him seriously.  Only the globers say otherwise.
    Cosmas was a monk whose writings are of interest but hold no authority whatsoever.  He was not important or influential.  Nobody needs to debunk him because simply reading what he wrote is enough for most people to recognize that Cosmas was a kook.  

    "Only globers"  means practically everyone.  Only the tiny tiny minority that is flat-earthers respects the opinions of Cosmas.

    Offline Smedley Butler

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1334
    • Reputation: +551/-1531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #66 on: May 27, 2018, 05:53:48 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you.  

    Did you notice what he had to say about Cosmas?
    Yes.
    He says "there is reason to believe Cosmas and Diodore's view of flat earth were not representative" of the people, but he fails to give the reason. 
    Oops. 

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #67 on: May 27, 2018, 05:55:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • With your endorsement of all things modern (Popes, encyclicals, science, cosmology, etc.) you struck me as a false-obedience Novus Ordo-type. Not a TLM-type.
    If you had some decent arguments for flat earth, you would not be reduced to constantly slandering me like this.  Not only do you resort to personal attacks, but they aren't even true.


    Offline Smedley Butler

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1334
    • Reputation: +551/-1531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #68 on: May 27, 2018, 06:03:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nothafts makes a logical and coherent case for his thesis.  He is not "attempting to prove the Church wrong".  There is no reason to think he is hostile to the Church in any way.  He does, however, show that you are wrong which is not the same thing at all.

    He backs up the account of history that I have been stating:  There was no consensus in the Patristic period.  Once St. Bede clearly taught spherical earth around 700 AD that view became the consensus of educated Catholics (and we can only speculate about the uneducated ones).

    You have not been able to produce a single quote in favour of flat earth from after 700.  Not from a Saint, a Doctor, a Pope, or anyone with any sort of authority.  The closest you come is to pretend that condemnations of heliocentrism somehow imply that the Church had a problem with spherical earth.  This is obviously wrong since geocentrism at the time of Galileo incorporated a sphericical earth.

    Belief in flat earth virtually disappeared by 700.  It was revived by heretics in the mid 1800s.  It cannot reasonably be seen as an integral part of Catholicism just because some of the Fathers believed it.
    Then why does Nofthath mention that Copernicus condemns flat earth in the first page?
    Why would Copernicus have to mention flat earth in the 1500's if EVERYONE knew it was a ball?

    Offline Smedley Butler

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1334
    • Reputation: +551/-1531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #69 on: May 27, 2018, 06:10:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • If you had some decent arguments for flat earth, you would not be reduced to constantly slandering me like this.  Not only do you resort to personal attacks, but they aren't even true.
    You're the one who called me Protestant, lady.
    You think that's not an insult? 
    If you can't take the heat, get out of the ghetto. 

    Offline Smedley Butler

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1334
    • Reputation: +551/-1531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #70 on: May 27, 2018, 06:22:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I am enjoying all of Jaynek's false premises regarding the flat earth being undone by her own source.

    St. Augustine believed the Biblical model of God's Creation.


    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #71 on: May 27, 2018, 06:33:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You're the one who called me Protestant, lady.
    You think that's not an insult?
    If you can't take the heat, get out of the ghetto.
    I did not call you a Protestant.  We can add that to the list of things you've made up about me.

    I am not complaining about all your personal attacks, just pointing out that they are a sign that you can't make a good argument for your position.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #72 on: May 27, 2018, 06:54:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Then why does Nofthath mention that Copernicus condemns flat earth in the first page?
    Why would Copernicus have to mention flat earth in the 1500's if EVERYONE knew it was a ball?
    Nothaft wrote:
    Quote
    Ever since Copernicus’s mocking reference to Lactantius’s rejection of the earth’s sphericity in the preface to De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (1543), the flat earth has been a symbol of ignorance and backward thinking, an archetype for everything that separates our modern mindset from that of the “Dark Ages.”

    It is clear enough why Copernicus mentioned it if one looks at the passage:

    Quote
    For it is not unknown that Lactantius, otherwise an illustrious writer but hardly an astronomer, speaks quite childishly about the earth's shape, when he mocks those who declared that the earth has the form of a globe. Hence scholars need not be surprised if any such persons will likewise ridicule me. Astronomy is written for astronomers. To them my work too will seem, unless I am mistaken, to make some contribution.
    Copernicus clearly addresses an audience that takes for granted that Lactantius was wrong to mock globe earth.  Copernicus uses this common assumption to make the point that he does not expect non-astronomers to understand his theory of heliocentrism.  

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #73 on: May 28, 2018, 12:39:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ever since I started posting on this topic I have said that there was no consensus among the Fathers.  

    Some believed the earth was flat and others thought it was a sphere.  
    .
    And exactly NONE of them had a telescope or any apparatus to measure celestial angles accurately.
    .
    What the ordinary layman today can know DIRECTLY by objective observation is far greater than any of the Fathers.
    .
    What the Fathers had to say about the shape of the earth is a moot point compared to what we have at our disposal today.
    .
    We have worldwide information at the tip of our fingers.
    We have theodolites and access to extremely high mountains.
    We have astronomers' tools that put theodolites to shame.
    We have satellite data and vast collections of astronomical observations.
    The Fathers of the Church had none of these things.
    If they HAD had them, there would have been 100% consensus in earth's sphericity.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #74 on: May 28, 2018, 12:44:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I missed this one.
    Eat my shorts, Globestat.
    .
    Yeah, right. The pompous Protestant liar comes out with his patent attitude problem.
    Case closed.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.