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Author Topic: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere  (Read 20849 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2018, 10:17:41 AM »
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    • Happenby claims:

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    A notable authority on the saint, says in his books about St. Augustine, that the saint was a flat earther.  
    She gives no actual quote from this notable authority.  Given her demonstrated lack of reading ability, I see no reason to accept an unsupported claim from her.  

    But she does back up my description of her behaviour, once again falsely claiming : "I've requested from you Fatherly sources for your globe, which you cannot produce.."  And yet again she asks for proof of things that she has been shown many, many times.  She has been shown quotes from Fathers.  She has also been shown that there is overwhelming evidence of a consensus among Catholics from the time of St. Bede (around 700) on accepting that the earth is a sphere.  She has been shown many quotes from various Saints from different time periods as well as analysis from historians.  

    Whenever shown this evidence, she finds some excuse to claim that it does not say what it says.  No matter how much evidence nor how strong, she continues to claim that it never happened. She asks for evidence that she has no intention of actually considering.  She always returns to saying that nobody has provided evidence of Catholic belief in spherical earth.

    Her latest attempt is a good example of just how flimsy her excuses are.  She writes:

    "Who would ever say such a thing, when you can see the fields of the sea, spread out level on all sides." -St. Augustine 

    This quote comes from a different section of the essay than his comments about the globe earth.  In context, it clearly refers to the idea of heaping up water as one heaps up grain.  The immediately preceding sentence is:  "They [the waters covering the earth] were not, surely, collected into a pile as happens on the threshing floor when the harvest that has been threshed is winnowed and then swept into a heap, and so lays bare the place it had been spread over and covered." This is what he refers to when he asks "Who would ever say such a thing?"   St. Augustine is making the obviously true observation that nobody would say such a thing of water because it always appears level.

    And yet happenby reads his comment and sees in it a debunking of the spherical earth.  She can neither read nor be reasoned with.


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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #16 on: May 19, 2018, 10:24:48 AM »
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    • This is what Wikipedia has to say about happenby's notable authority on St. Augustine:

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    Leo Ferrari was a founding member and head of the satirical Flat Earth Society of Canada, later renamed the Flat Earth Society (FES).[4]
    In Ferrari's writings in support of the FES and the Flat Earth, he attributed everything from gender to racial inequality on the globularist and the Spherical Earth model.[5] Ferrari even claimed to have nearly fallen off "the Edge" of the Earth at Brimstone Head on Fogo Island.[6]
    Ferrari was a key figure in the 1990 flat earth "docuмentary", In Search of the Edge.[7] In the accompanying study guide, Ferrari is outed as a "globularist," someone who believes the earth is spherical.[8] The intent of the film was to promote critical thinking about media by "[attempting] to prove in convincing fashion, something everyone knew to be false." [8]

    It is quite possible that any claims that he made about St. Augustine believing the earth is flat were part of his satirical writings. I would not expect happenby to be able to tell.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #17 on: May 19, 2018, 10:41:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Truth is Eternal on May 18, 2018, 04:43:09 PM
    You are missing the dome in your graphic.

    Yes, missing the dome and the ice wall. Even cats can't get through those.  :)
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #18 on: May 19, 2018, 11:49:07 AM »
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    • Happenby,

    Since Jayne didn't really respond to the good points you made in post #14 on this first page of this thread, I'll reiterate some of it here, so as to be a reminder of what you wrote. (I can't quote directly from what you wrote due to the formatting of your response to Jayne).

    When Jayne said that those who believe in a sphere have a right to claim support from the Fathers, you gave a good reply thus:

    "On what do you base this 'right' to claim support from the Fathers? They haven't given you, or your globe, any support. This isn't an equal rights thing. You have a right to the Fathers, but they have not provided you a single teaching for the globe, so you don't have a right to claim support from the Fathers.
    No one is talking about magisterial teaching.
    As for most Catholics believing in a spherical earth, please provide specifics that prove this.
    As for the saints, some thought the earth a sphere, but exactly none have brought forth teaching from it."

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #19 on: May 19, 2018, 12:14:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on May 19, 2018, 11:49:07 AM
    Happenby,

    Since Jayne didn't really respond to the good points you made in post #14 on this first page of this thread, I'll reiterate some of it here, so as to be a reminder of what you wrote. (I can't quote directly from what you wrote due to the formatting of your response to Jayne).

    When Jayne said that those who believe in a sphere have a right to claim support from the Fathers, you gave a good reply thus:

    "On what do you base this 'right' to claim support from the Fathers? They haven't given you, or your globe, any support. This isn't an equal rights thing. You have a right to the Fathers, but they have not provided you a single teaching for the globe, so you don't have a right to claim support from the Fathers.
    No one is talking about magisterial teaching.
    As for most Catholics believing in a spherical earth, please provide specifics that prove this.
    As for the saints, some thought the earth a sphere, but exactly none have brought forth teaching from it."
    Thanks, Meg.  Notice she claims again that she provided proofs from the Fathers that earth is a globe, which I have yet to see.  She refuses to post anything because she doesn't have anything, then deflects the request by saying she already posted several. She's definitely digging herself a ditch by continuing to say she did post them and by not posting them now (in case we missed them).  Have you seen a single proof from Jaynek of a Father of the Church teaching, based on Scripture, to show earth is a globe?  
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #20 on: May 19, 2018, 12:51:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on May 19, 2018, 12:14:07 PM
    Thanks, Meg.  Notice she claims again that she provided proofs from the Fathers that earth is a globe, which I have yet to see.  She refuses to post anything because she doesn't have anything, then deflects the request by saying she already posted several. She's definitely digging herself a ditch by continuing to say she did post them and by not posting them now (in case we missed them).  Have you seen a single proof from Jaynek of a Father of the Church teaching, based on Scripture, to show earth is a globe?  

    No, I haven't seen any proof from Jayne that a Father of the Church has taught that the earth is a globe, based on scripture.

    And since the globe earth cannot be based on Scripture, then what can it be based on?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #21 on: May 19, 2018, 01:06:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on May 19, 2018, 11:49:07 AM
    Happenby,

    Since Jayne didn't really respond to the good points you made in post #14 on this first page of this thread, I'll reiterate some of it here, so as to be a reminder of what you wrote.
    As any objective person can tell, happenby did not make any good points.  And they certainly do not need to be reiterated since these same false claims have already been made countless times on this forum.

    Unfortunately, the handful of flat-earthers who contribute here will agree with each other no matter what nonsense they come up with.  I suppose their loyalty is commendable.  It's too bad it is not put in service of something true and good.  Instead they help each other to maintain a fantasy world.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #22 on: May 19, 2018, 01:10:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on May 19, 2018, 12:51:13 PM
    No, I haven't seen any proof from Jayne that a Father of the Church has taught that the earth is a globe, based on scripture.
    If you could understand the passage from St. Augustine which is the subject of this thread, you would have seen that very thing.  You don't see the proofs because you are blind, not because they have not been shown to you. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #23 on: May 19, 2018, 01:18:40 PM »
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    • Happenby,

    I'll reiterate another good point that you made to Jayne, which she also did not respond to. In reply #14, you gave Jayne a response to what she said about there being no historical basis for claims that a spherical earth was forced on Catholics by NASA or Freemasons. You replied thus:

    "Oh, there is. And I have plenty of it. The historical basis for the pagan globe theory being a thorn in the Catholic side going way back, and can be said it is a long time heritage as an unwanted controversy. The sphere is always found emanating from the dark corners of science where you find these types: Cabalists (Albert Pike), sorcerers (Johannes Kepler), diviners (N. Copernicus), atheists (Einstein), Freemasons (NASA), ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs (Newton), political mass murderers (Karl Marx).

    All these men were sphere earth promoters in a big way. In fact, Karl Marx, and avid spherical earther, actually thanked Copernicus for giving him a scientific premise for communism/ Marxism."

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #24 on: May 19, 2018, 01:48:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on May 19, 2018, 01:10:07 PM
    If you could understand the passage from St. Augustine which is the subject of this thread, you would have seen that very thing.  You don't see the proofs because you are blind, not because they have not been shown to you.

    I could have seen that very thing? We were asking about Church Fathers who taught a globe earth based on SCRIPTURE. I can't find where St. Augustine references Scripture for "Aquosa et globose moles." Maybe I missed it. 

    Please be specific and clear about what part of Scripture St. Augustine himself attributes to "Aquosa et globosa moles."
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #25 on: May 19, 2018, 02:43:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on May 19, 2018, 01:48:03 PM
    I could have seen that very thing? We were asking about Church Fathers who taught a globe earth based on SCRIPTURE. I can't find where St. Augustine references Scripture for "Aquosa et globose moles." Maybe I missed it.

    Please be specific and clear about what part of Scripture St. Augustine himself attributes to "Aquosa et globosa moles."
    Good example of moving the goalposts . At first they were saying to show that there were Fathers who BELIEVED in globe earth .  When shown that there were, they moved to asking for Fathers that TAUGHT globe earth. When shown this, they ask for Fathers who taught globe based on SCRIPTURE .  (This actually was based on Scripture but she couldn't tell ) .

    There is always some excuse to dismiss the evidence and pretend that none has ever been produced. I wonder if they really think they are fooling anyone. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #26 on: May 19, 2018, 02:47:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on May 19, 2018, 02:43:33 PM
    Good example of moving the goalposts . At first they were saying to show that there were Fathers who BELIEVED in globe earth .  When shown that there were, they moved to asking for Fathers that TAUGHT globe earth. When shown this, they ask for Fathers who taught globe based on SCRIPTURE .  (This actually was based on Scripture but she couldn't tell ) .

    There is always some excuse to dismiss the evidence and pretend that none has ever been produced. I wonder if they really think they are fooling anyone.

    Where in Scripture is the idea for..."Aquosa et globosa moles?" It should be easy enough for you to point out, since you believe that St. Augustine is teaching about a "globe" earth.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #27 on: May 19, 2018, 02:59:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on May 19, 2018, 02:43:33 PM
    Good example of moving the goalposts . At first they were saying to show that there were Fathers who BELIEVED in globe earth .  When shown that there were, they moved to asking for Fathers that TAUGHT globe earth. When shown this, they ask for Fathers who taught globe based on SCRIPTURE .  (This actually was based on Scripture but she couldn't tell ) .

    There is always some excuse to dismiss the evidence and pretend that none has ever been produced. I wonder if they really think they are fooling anyone.

    I don't believe that St. Augustine is teaching a globe earth.

    But even if he did, then it should be a able to be verified from Scripture. But it isn't.

    Flat earthers, on the other hand, don't have a problem showing where in Scripture a flat earth is described. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #28 on: May 19, 2018, 03:10:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on May 18, 2018, 07:02:32 PM
    You stepped in it again.  Augustine is debunking the globe.  He poses it this way:
    25.  "But if that primordial light had been poured round the mass of the earth on all sides to cover it all, whether it was stationary (geocentric globe) or circling round (heliocentric globe), there would have been no part in which it could let night into follow it, because it would not itself have withdrawn from anywhere to make room for it."
    If you'd bother to read, you'd see he's taken a swipe at both notions of globe, moving and stationary.  Then he continues:
    "Or, was it just made on the one side of the earth, so that as it circled round it would allow night from the side to circle round too in its wake?  Since water, you see, was still covering the whole earth, there was nothing to stop the mass of this watery globe from causing day on one side from the presence of light, and night on the other from the absence of light, which would follow round to the first side at the time of evening, while the light sank down to the other side."  
    St. Augustine finishes up debunking the ridiculous globe, then in a statement two paragraphs later he says: "Who would say such a thing, when he can see the fields of the sea, spread out level on all sides..."  


    Thanks for posting this, you saved me the time and corrected yourself all in one fell swoop.    

    Here's Happenby's response above to your idea that St. Augustine is teaching a globe earth, as a reminder.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #29 on: May 19, 2018, 03:21:23 PM »
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    • Happenby has been here in flat earth a lot longer than Jaynek and has always said there were saints who believed earth is a sphere, so it's never been about anything except the saints who taught on the subject.🙅
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