Author Topic: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere  (Read 1456 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jaynek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2675
  • Reputation: +1132/-571
  • Gender: Female
St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
« on: May 18, 2018, 03:31:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Even though we often see St. Augustine claimed here as a believer in flat earth (based on a misunderstanding of his comments on antipodes) in fact he thought the earth was a sphere.  He referred to the earth as aquosa et globosa moles.

    From his work De Genesi ad Litteram "On the Literal Meaning of Genesis":

    Cum enim totam terram adhuc aqua tegeret, nihil impediebat ut aquosa et globosa moles ex una parte faceret diem lucis praesentia, ex alia noctem lucis absentia, quae in eam partem succederet a tempore vespertino, ex qua lux in aliam declinaret.

    "Although water still covered all the earth, nothing was preventing the watery and spherical mass from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light, that in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other."

    If anyone would like to see it in context here is a pdf for the entire work.  In this work the passage (which is a bit different translation from mine  "the mass of this watery globe") occurs near the top of page 179.

    http://www.scottmacdonald.net/genesis/Texts_files/Augustine%20Literal%20Meaning%20of%20Genesis%20bks%201-2.pdf
    I hope that those who have been insisting on literalistic interpretations of Scripture will read the entire thing and understand how far their ideas on interpretation are from the teaching of St. Augustine.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Truth is Eternal

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1768
    • Reputation: +774/-1963
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 04:26:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Even though we often see St. Augustine claimed here as a believer in flat earth (based on a misunderstanding of his comments on antipodes) in fact he thought the earth was a sphere.  He referred to the earth as aquosa et globosa moles.

    From his work De Genesi ad Litteram "On the Literal Meaning of Genesis":

    Cum enim totam terram adhuc aqua tegeret, nihil impediebat ut aquosa et globosa moles ex una parte faceret diem lucis praesentia, ex alia noctem lucis absentia, quae in eam partem succederet a tempore vespertino, ex qua lux in aliam declinaret.

    "Although water still covered all the earth, nothing was preventing the watery and spherical mass from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light, that in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other."

    If anyone would like to see it in context here is a pdf for the entire work.  In this work the passage (which is a bit different translation from mine  "the mass of this watery globe") occurs near the top of page 179.

    http://www.scottmacdonald.net/genesis/Texts_files/Augustine%20Literal%20Meaning%20of%20Genesis%20bks%201-2.pdf
    I hope that those who have been insisting on literalistic interpretations of Scripture will read the entire thing and understand how far their ideas on interpretation are from the teaching of St. Augustine.
    Everyone on Cathinfo, including you, knows the earth is not a sphere.
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."


    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2675
    • Reputation: +1132/-571
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #2 on: May 18, 2018, 04:31:43 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Everyone on Cathinfo, including you, knows the earth is not a sphere.

    Since you did not respond to the point of the post, I'll try one that may be easier for you to understand:


    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Truth is Eternal

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1768
    • Reputation: +774/-1963
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #3 on: May 18, 2018, 04:42:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Since you did not respond to the point of the post, I'll try one that may be easier for you to understand:



    You are missing the ice wall in your graphic.
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

    Offline Truth is Eternal

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1768
    • Reputation: +774/-1963
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #4 on: May 18, 2018, 04:43:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Since you did not respond to the point of the post, I'll try one that may be easier for you to understand:



    You are missing the dome in your graphic.
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."


    Online Smedley Butler

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 953
    • Reputation: +323/-1128
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #5 on: May 18, 2018, 05:26:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Notice Jaynek sped over to the ghetto to start a thread when the other wad closed.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2675
    • Reputation: +1132/-571
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #6 on: May 18, 2018, 05:37:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So are those of you who have claimed that St. Augustine taught flat earth going to retract it now or are you just going to ignore the quote and talk about other things?
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline aryzia

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 336
    • Reputation: +93/-132
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #7 on: May 18, 2018, 06:26:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Even though we often see St. Augustine claimed here as a believer in flat earth (based on a misunderstanding of his comments on antipodes) in fact he thought the earth was a sphere.  He referred to the earth as aquosa et globosa moles.

    From his work De Genesi ad Litteram "On the Literal Meaning of Genesis":

    Cum enim totam terram adhuc aqua tegeret, nihil impediebat ut aquosa et globosa moles ex una parte faceret diem lucis praesentia, ex alia noctem lucis absentia, quae in eam partem succederet a tempore vespertino, ex qua lux in aliam declinaret.

    "Although water still covered all the earth, nothing was preventing the watery and spherical mass from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light, that in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other."

    If anyone would like to see it in context here is a pdf for the entire work.  In this work the passage (which is a bit different translation from mine  "the mass of this watery globe") occurs near the top of page 179.

    http://www.scottmacdonald.net/genesis/Texts_files/Augustine%20Literal%20Meaning%20of%20Genesis%20bks%201-2.pdf
    I hope that those who have been insisting on literalistic interpretations of Scripture will read the entire thing and understand how far their ideas on interpretation are from the teaching of St. Augustine.
    You sure didn't read far because he speaks of the oceans as flat like fields.


    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2675
    • Reputation: +1132/-571
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #8 on: May 18, 2018, 06:40:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • You sure didn't read far because he speaks of the oceans as flat like fields.
    He clearly and explicitly said that the earth is a globe. There is no other way to understand aquosa et globosa moles.

    People who believe the earth is a sphere often talk about oceans being flat and fields being flat.  It means these things appear flat to the naked eye.  Using such expressions does not show that a person believes the earth is flat.  It is certainly not evidence of belief in flat earth when someone has just described the earth as a watery spherical mass.

    You claim to be basing your belief on the teachings of the Fathers but it is clear that you are not.  You twist the words of the Fathers to make them say what you want.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Truth is Eternal

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1768
    • Reputation: +774/-1963
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #9 on: May 18, 2018, 06:42:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • He clearly and explicitly said that the earth is a globe. There is no other way to understand aquosa et globosa moles.

    People who believe the earth is a sphere often talk about oceans being flat and fields being flat.  It means these things appear flat to the naked eye.  Using such expressions does not show that a person believes the earth is flat.  It is certainly not evidence of belief in flat earth when someone has just described the earth as a watery spherical mass.

    You claim to be basing your belief on the teachings of the Fathers but it is clear that you are not.  You twist the words of the Fathers to make them say what you want.
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2398
    • Reputation: +943/-1519
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #10 on: May 18, 2018, 07:02:32 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Even though we often see St. Augustine claimed here as a believer in flat earth (based on a misunderstanding of his comments on antipodes) in fact he thought the earth was a sphere.  He referred to the earth as aquosa et globosa moles.

    From his work De Genesi ad Litteram "On the Literal Meaning of Genesis":

    Cum enim totam terram adhuc aqua tegeret, nihil impediebat ut aquosa et globosa moles ex una parte faceret diem lucis praesentia, ex alia noctem lucis absentia, quae in eam partem succederet a tempore vespertino, ex qua lux in aliam declinaret.

    "Although water still covered all the earth, nothing was preventing the watery and spherical mass from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light, that in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other."

    If anyone would like to see it in context here is a pdf for the entire work.  In this work the passage (which is a bit different translation from mine  "the mass of this watery globe") occurs near the top of page 179.

    http://www.scottmacdonald.net/genesis/Texts_files/Augustine%20Literal%20Meaning%20of%20Genesis%20bks%201-2.pdf
    I hope that those who have been insisting on literalistic interpretations of Scripture will read the entire thing and understand how far their ideas on interpretation are from the teaching of St. Augustine.
    You stepped in it again.  Augustine is debunking the globe.  He poses it this way:
    25.  "But if that primordial light had been poured round the mass of the earth on all sides to cover it all, whether it was stationary (geocentric globe) or circling round (heliocentric globe), there would have been no part in which it could let night into follow it, because it would not itself have withdrawn from anywhere to make room for it."
    If you'd bother to read, you'd see he's taken a swipe at both notions of globe, moving and stationary.  Then he continues:
    "Or, was it just made on the one side of the earth, so that as it circled round it would allow night from the side to circle round too in its wake?  Since water, you see, was still covering the whole earth, there was nothing to stop the mass of this watery globe from causing day on one side from the presence of light, and night on the other from the absence of light, which would follow round to the first side at the time of evening, while the light sank down to the other side." 
    St. Augustine finishes up debunking the ridiculous globe, then in a statement two paragraphs later he says: "Who would say such a thing, when he can see the fields of the sea, spread out level on all sides..." 


    Thanks for posting this, you saved me the time and corrected yourself all in one fell swoop.   


    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2675
    • Reputation: +1132/-571
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #11 on: May 18, 2018, 07:59:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • You stepped in it again.  Augustine is debunking the globe.  He poses it this way:
    25.  "But if that primordial light had been poured round the mass of the earth on all sides to cover it all, whether it was stationary (geocentric globe) or circling round (heliocentric globe), there would have been no part in which it could let night into follow it, because it would not itself have withdrawn from anywhere to make room for it."
    If you'd bother to read, you'd see he's taken a swipe at both notions of globe, moving and stationary.  Then he continues:
    "Or, was it just made on the one side of the earth, so that as it circled round it would allow night from the side to circle round too in its wake?  Since water, you see, was still covering the whole earth, there was nothing to stop the mass of this watery globe from causing day on one side from the presence of light, and night on the other from the absence of light, which would follow round to the first side at the time of evening, while the light sank down to the other side."  
    St. Augustine finishes up debunking the ridiculous globe, then in a statement two paragraphs later he says: "Who would say such a thing, when he can see the fields of the sea, spread out level on all sides..."  


    Thanks for posting this, you saved me the time and corrected yourself all in one fell swoop.    
    It does not mean anything like what you are saying.  In this passage, he is answering the question "How did evening and morning follow each other in the first three days?"  This needs an explanation because the sun was not created until the fourth day and yet light was separated from darkness and there were days starting from the first day.

    He is not debunking the globe but assuming its existence in order to answer the question.  The primordial light (the sort of light that existed before the creation of the sun) could not have gone all the way around the earth because this would not allow for night.  He is not talking about the globe being stationary or moving, but about the primordial light being stationary or moving as it encircled the spherical earth.  Either way, there could be no night.

    He then considers the possibility of the primordial light only shining on one side of the earth at a time, creating day and night as it circled around.  This could work because the earth was a watery globe.  This, therefore, is his solution to the question he posed.

    The statement from two paragraphs later is part of an answer to a completely different question:  "As the water under heaven had first covered the whole earth, where did it recede to for the dry land to appear?"  He is saying that obviously water did not get piled on top of water because that is not the way that water behaves. That is what the part you quote means.  He then goes on to suggest solutions such as the earth receding under the water to create hollow places for it.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2675
    • Reputation: +1132/-571
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #12 on: May 19, 2018, 06:46:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This passage from St. Augustine is a clear, unambiguous reference to his belief in a spherical earth.  It requires no special knowledge of the original language or the historical context.  All that one needs to do is read a couple of paragraphs of immediate context and it ought to unmistakable what he is talking about.

    And yet happenby managed to see it as a "debunking" of globe earth.  She is apparently so blinded by her attachment to her opinion that she is not even capable of understanding what she reads.  And unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident.  She has been shown other quotes from Fathers in which they teach or show their belief in globe earth and she consistently falls back on denying that they say what they say.  She dismisses the correct understanding as "spin" and goes on as if she had never seen it.

    She frequently claims that she is basing her view on the Fathers and "globalists" have no support from Catholic sources.  She and others here constantly pretend that they have never been shown quotes from the Fathers demonstrating spherical earth.  Their claims  are meaningless.  Their view, rather than being based on the Fathers, is based on a refusal or inability to understand what they read.

    The truth, which they will never admit, is that there were mixed opinions among the Fathers regarding the shape of the earth. There was nothing approaching a consensus on the topic.  If one goes through the list of flatist proof quotes one sees that a large proportion do not even show support for flat earth and just one actually suggests that Christians are obliged to believe it. St. John Damascene accurately summarized the views of the Fathers when he said that some said it was flat and some said it was a globe, but what is important is to know that God is is the creator.

    Those of us who believe the earth is a sphere have just as much a right to claim support from the Fathers.  Unlike the flatists, whose Catholic support ends with the patristic period, we hold the belief which persisted throughout history as the consensus among Catholics, including Doctors and Saints.  While there is no magisterial teaching on the shape of the earth, there is a long strong tradition of Catholics believing in spherical earth.  

    There is no historical basis for claims that spherical earth was forced on Catholics by Freemasons or NASA.  It is a legitimate part of our heritage as Catholics that goes back to the Fathers.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16281
    • Reputation: +7844/-536
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #13 on: May 19, 2018, 09:13:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    You can get a Flat Mars Society button to spread the flatness joy! 
    .
      
    Or just order a T-shirt so you can be the hit of the party!    
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2398
    • Reputation: +943/-1519
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #14 on: May 19, 2018, 09:15:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • This passage from St. Augustine is a clear, unambiguous reference to his belief in a spherical earth.  It requires no special knowledge of the original language or the historical context.  All that one needs to do is read a couple of paragraphs of immediate context and it ought to unmistakable what he is talking about.

    "Who would ever say such a thing, when you can see the fields of the sea, spread out level on all sides." -St. Augustine

    And yet happenby managed to see it as a "debunking" of globe earth.  She is apparently so blinded by her attachment to her opinion that she is not even capable of understanding what she reads.  And unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident.  She has been shown other quotes from Fathers in which they teach or show their belief in globe earth and she consistently falls back on denying that they say what they say.  She dismisses the correct understanding as "spin" and goes on as if she had never seen it.

    You would think you'd be tired of being proven wrong. A notable authority on the saint, says in his books about St. Augustine, that the saint was a flat earther.  Small bio: "Recognized internationally as an authority on Augustine of Hippo, Mr. Ferrari published over 35 works on the 5th-century bishop-philosopher and presented a number of academic papers on him at conferences and conventions. In 1982 he was invited to deliver the annual Saint Augustine Lecture at Villanova University, Villanova, Pennsylvania. A substantial work, Concordantia in libros XIII confessionum S. Aurelii Augustini, the first published concordance to the Skutella text, was published jointly with Rodney H. Cooper, Peter M. Ruddock, and J. Robert Smith in 1991. Ferrari retired from university teaching in 1995. At spring convocation 1998, he will be named first professor emeritus of St. Thomas University.
     

    She frequently claims that she is basing her view on the Fathers and "globalists" have no support from Catholic sources.  She and others here constantly pretend that they have never been shown quotes from the Fathers demonstrating spherical earth.  Their claims  are meaningless.  Their view, rather than being based on the Fathers, is based on a refusal or inability to understand what they read.

    I've been on this for 10 years and have yet to find Catholic Father sources for the globe.  I've requested from you Fatherly sources for your globe, which you cannot produce, because you have no traditional Catholic sources for the globe.  If I'm mistaken and you somehow have them now, please share them.  I have shared flat earth teachings from Scripture, from St. John Chrysostom, Methodius, Cosmas, St. Jerome,
    Severian, St. Basil, Enoch, Lactanctius, Origen, etc.         

    The truth, which they will never admit, is that there were mixed opinions among the Fathers regarding the shape of the earth. There was nothing approaching a consensus on the topic.  If one goes through the list of flatist proof quotes one sees that a large proportion do not even show support for flat earth and just one actually suggests that Christians are obliged to believe it. St. John Damascene accurately summarized the views of the Fathers when he said that some said it was flat and some said it was a globe, but what is important is to know that God is is the creator.

    There's no consensus on who believed a particular shape of the earth and I've said that time and again.  I've also repeated that, of the Fathers who taught anything on the shape of the earth, 100% taught flat earth, and they based their teachings in Scripture.  That is a consensus on the actual teachings on the shape of the earth.  Unless of course, you manage to drum up one I haven't yet come across where a Father uses Scripture to prove earth is a ball. Still waiting... 

    Those of us who believe the earth is a sphere have just as much a right to claim support from the Fathers.  Unlike the flatists, whose Catholic support ends with the patristic period, we hold the belief which persisted throughout history as the consensus among Catholics, including Doctors and Saints.  While there is no magisterial teaching on the shape of the earth, there is a long strong tradition of Catholics believing in spherical earth.  

    On what do you base this 'right' to claim support from the Fathers?  They haven't given you, or your globe, any support.  This isn't an equal rights thing.  You have a right to the Fathers, but they have not provided you a single teaching for the globe, so you don't have a right to claim support from the Fathers. 
    No one is talking magisterial teaching. 
    As far as most Catholic believing in spherical earth throughout the centuries, please provide the specifics that prove this.
    As for the Saints, some thought earth a sphere, but exactly none have brought forth a teaching on it.  You believe that some describe a globe in their visions.  This is far from proven, but even if they did, others, like Anne Catherine Emmerich say its flat.  No consensus. Private revelation.  

       
    There is no historical basis for claims that spherical earth was forced on Catholics by Freemasons or NASA.  It is a legitimate part of our heritage as Catholics that goes back to the Fathers

    Oh, there is.  And I have plenty of it.  The historical basis for the pagan globe theory being a thorn in the Catholic side going way back, and can be said it is a long time part of our heritage as an unwanted controversy.  The sphere is always found emanating from the dark corners of science where you find these types: Cabalists (Albert Pike), sorcerers (Johannes Kepler), diviners (N Copernicus), atheists (Einstein), Freemasons (NASA), homosexuals (Newton), political mass murderers (Karl Marx),

    All these men were sphere earth promoters in a really big way.  In fact, Karl Marx, an avid spherical earther, actually thanked Copernicus for giving him a scientific premise for Communism/Marxism. 

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16