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Author Topic: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere  (Read 20864 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
« Reply #135 on: May 30, 2018, 12:21:55 AM »
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    There are some who claim Nicolaus Copernicus was a priest, and others who say there is no record of him being ordained.
    .
    But he spent a long time studying in ecclesiastical courses, to become a canonist, and assisted a bishop.
    .
    But his abiding avocation was astronomy which he spent a lot of his time on, sort of like the time happenby spends on the Internet.
    .
    It is said he did not promote his book aggressively and only published it after friends told him he should.
    .
    He knew it would be controversial so he was hesitant of the fallout. He didn't want to be accused of heresy in those days.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #136 on: May 30, 2018, 01:25:50 AM »
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    Why would you quote Lactantius regarding astronomical observations when he was ignorant of astronomy?
    Does his ignorance make you feel comfortable in your ignorance too?
    Birds of a feather flocking together?
    And Cosmas the devil worshiper too?
    Why do you assume Lactantius was ignorant of astronomy?  Because somebody said so?  What exactly do they say and what proof do they provide of this?  I proved Copernicus dabbled in the occult, but you have nothing on Cosmas.  His writings are beautiful, respectful of Scripture, Our Lady, the liturgy, the Patriarchs and all very Catholic.  Copernicus' were the opposite.  Not only was he fascinated with astrology and alchemy and Kabbalah, he is said to have had a girlfriend.  
     
    Anne Schilling

    Fragments of badly preserved chest with rusty fittings found in the cellar by workers during the renovation of the house at 1 Mariacka street are a sensational discovery. It turned out that on the back of a rotten board there is a date Anno Domini 1539 and an inscription “Anne” together with a blurred fragment of a surname “Schill...”. Most probably it is the trunk of Anne Schilling...

    In XVI century in Gdańsk, which was then the wealthiest town of the Polish Republic and one of the most powerful trade centres in Europe, Anne and Nicholas met. He was a canon in Frombork whilst she was a daughter of a Dutch merchant.

    The Dominican Fare was just taking place, a number of vessels loaded with Spanish and French wine, silk, olive, Portuguese spices and other goods arrived at the port. Anne Schilling appeared unexpectedly at Mariacka street. Elegant dresses of the beautiful Dutch shimmered in the sun. Her alluring silhouette and lovely face gladdened eyes of passers-by, even wealthy townswomen were whispering: Look, here comes the daughter of Arend van der Schilling.

    Anne met Nicholas Copernicus in Gdańsk in the year 1529 when her father, Dutchman Arend van der Schilling, together with Copernicus were the legal carers of a group of orphans. The famous astronomer enchanted Anne to such an extent that she agreed to become his housekeeper in Frombork. What happened with her husband? He was supposed to have left her for another woman.

    Anne – a serious wife, was not only charming and wealthy but also clever. She read scholarly books, was interested in astrology. Like other people of her epoch she wondered what was the black curtain which covered the sun every night. Therefore, it was not a surprise that the educated and brilliant, although much older from Anne canon Nicholas Copernicus made a staggering impression on her.

    For seven years, beautiful Dutchwoman remained extremely close with the astronomer-too close- in Frombork’s citizens opinion, though Copernicus himself introduced her as his housekeeper. However, every night visit was diligently noted for Frombork was a little town. There nothing could hide, even if it was only watching the stars together and casting horoscopes. Thus, in November 1538 bishop Dantyszek from a distant town Warminian Lidzbark sent a letter ordering Copernicus to end that acquaintance.

    To end...- but how if she is so full of charm? – worried Copernicus, yet in his letter to the bishop assured: I strongly desire not to let the situation happen in which I would become the common cause of depravation. Six weeks later he wrote again: I have followed Your Majesty’s warnings. What a liar! Anne was still living in his house.

    However, in the summer of 1539 Nicholas Copernicus sent Anne away. Nevertheless, people of evil will were still accusing them of clandestine meetings. Therefore, a concerned Warminian canon Paweł Płotowski informed: Doctor Nicholas’ woman sent her things to Gdańsk, yet she herself still remains here in Frombork...

    Anne had no other choice than to return to Gdańsk and bring the rest of her belongings to Mariacka street. There, in the shadow of the basilica, in the house at the beginning of the most beautiful streets in Gdańsk she was waiting for her astronomer. Did he arrive? Most probably, for Anne differed so much from other women...

    After the death of Nicholas Copernicus, the canons from Frombork wrote a letter to bishop Dantyszek asking if he would let Anne return to the city which she was expelled from then that doctor Copernicus had left. Bishop Dantyszek refused their claim immediately with the following words: We must be afraid that through the same means that she created his [Copernicus] madness [...] she can entrap one of you, my brothers [...].

    Anne Schilling must have been a lovely creature indeed and endowed with magnetic personality. Certainly, she was one of the most gorgeous and shiniest Copernicus’ stars...


    Offline happenby

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #137 on: May 30, 2018, 01:41:16 AM »
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  • Doesn't seem Copernicus' friends were terribly savory either.

    Copernicus had drafted a full treatise on his ideas, but he was sitting on it. Neither the church nor the public was ready to see the center of the universe anywhere but at the center of Earth. It took Rheticus' passion for the idea to get Copernicus to finish the book -- titled, On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres.
    Copernicus entrusted the finished manuscript to Rheticus, who took it off to a publisher in Nürnberg. Rheticus left the complex typesetting, under the eye of a noted Nürnberg theologian. The actual printing was done very well, but then the theologian added an anonymous introductory letter to the text. It said that, although Earth did not really orbit the Sun, the mathematics becomes much simpler if we simply imagine that it does.
    When Rheticus saw that, he was outraged. Today we find, in every copy that he ever held, a livid [size=+1]X[/size] slashed across that page in red crayon. And yet, that letter probably allowed Copernicus' ideas to spread and touch our world as few other ideas ever did.
    As for Copernicus, he suffered a stroke before he saw the finished book. It arrived as he lay unable to speak. Just hours before he died, his friends put the title page where he could see it. And we're left to wonder: could he still comprehend? And did he know what forces he had unleashed -- with the help of a young man who clearly was aware that nothing would ever be the same again?
    I'm John Lienhard at the University of Houston, where we're interested in the way inventive minds work.

    In 1552, Rheticus was found guilty of raping the son of Hans Meusel, a merchant. According to Meusel, Rheticus "plied him with a strong drink, until he was inebriated; and finally did with violence overcome him and practice upon him the shameful and cruel vice of sodomy".[9] Rheticus was consequently exiled from Leipzig for 101 years.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #138 on: May 30, 2018, 01:43:44 AM »
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  • .
    So the thread on St. Augustine has devolved into a thread on some other guy's girlfriend.
    And if he HAD a girlfriend, he certainly must have been worshiping the devil, too. Eh? What is your source?
    The grapevine of jealous women with too much time on their hands?
    Whoever it is they can't manage to spell Nicolaus correctly. Maybe they're gossiping about someone else.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #139 on: May 30, 2018, 06:10:26 AM »
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  • .
    So the thread on St. Augustine has devolved into a thread on some other guy's girlfriend.
    And if he HAD a girlfriend, he certainly must have been worshiping the devil, too. Eh? What is your source?
    The grapevine of jealous women with too much time on their hands?
    Whoever it is they can't manage to spell Nicolaus correctly. Maybe they're gossiping about someone else.
    Kepler was a well-known devil worshipper too and his mother was a witch. 
    He murdered Tyco Brahe.
    You globers have thrown your lot in with some real winners,  and against God's Word.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #140 on: May 30, 2018, 12:13:27 PM »
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  • Kepler was a well-known devil worshipper too and his mother was a witch.
    He murdered Tyco Brahe.
    You globers have thrown your lot in with some real winners,  and against God's Word.
    .
    Maybe you'd have preferred that Tyco Brahe would have lived longer to promote flat-earthism.
    No, wait, he wasn't a flat-earther, was he. No. 
    Perhaps Smedley Butler was a devil worshiper, too. I mean, he killed lots of people: so he was a killer.
    Smedley Butler, whose name you have taken, was against God's Word, as you say.
    You flat-earthers have thrown your lot in with some real losers.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #141 on: May 30, 2018, 12:16:17 PM »
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  • Doesn't seem Copernicus' friends were terribly savory either.

    Copernicus had drafted a full treatise on his ideas, but he was sitting on it. Neither the church nor the public was ready to see the center of the universe anywhere but at the center of Earth. It took Rheticus' passion for the idea to get Copernicus to finish the book -- titled, On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres.
    Copernicus entrusted the finished manuscript to Rheticus, who took it off to a publisher in Nürnberg. Rheticus left the complex typesetting, under the eye of a noted Nürnberg theologian. The actual printing was done very well, but then the theologian added an anonymous introductory letter to the text. It said that, although Earth did not really orbit the Sun, the mathematics becomes much simpler if we simply imagine that it does.
    When Rheticus saw that, he was outraged. Today we find, in every copy that he ever held, a livid X slashed across that page in red crayon. And yet, that letter probably allowed Copernicus' ideas to spread and touch our world as few other ideas ever did.
    As for Copernicus, he suffered a stroke before he saw the finished book. It arrived as he lay unable to speak. Just hours before he died, his friends put the title page where he could see it. And we're left to wonder: could he still comprehend? And did he know what forces he had unleashed -- with the help of a young man who clearly was aware that nothing would ever be the same again?
    I'm John Lienhard at the University of Houston, where we're interested in the way inventive minds work.

    In 1552, Rheticus was found guilty of raping the son of Hans Meusel, a merchant. According to Meusel, Rheticus "plied him with a strong drink, until he was inebriated; and finally did with violence overcome him and practice upon him the shameful and cruel vice of sodomy".[9] Rheticus was consequently exiled from Leipzig for 101 years.
    .
    What is your source for this material? Wikipedia?
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #142 on: May 30, 2018, 12:32:30 PM »
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  • .
    So the thread on St. Augustine has devolved into a thread on some other guy's girlfriend.
    And if he HAD a girlfriend, he certainly must have been worshiping the devil, too. Eh? What is your source?
    The grapevine of jealous women with too much time on their hands?
    Whoever it is they can't manage to spell Nicolaus correctly. Maybe they're gossiping about someone else.
    https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/science/faith-and-science/nicolaus-copernicus.html
    "Copernicus, son of a Polish father and German mother, was a priest and the temporary administrator of the diocese of Frauenburg."
    Well, we have a priest of the Catholic Church, hiding from his bishop with his house maid, playing astrology night games and giving book time to the all-seeing eye. 
    Neil says, "Nothing wrong here. I believe Copernicus over Scripture because Scripture is unclear to me." 




    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #143 on: May 30, 2018, 01:08:57 PM »
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  • When in doubt, the Godly authority always takes precedence.  Otherwise, a choice is in favor of error.  Pagans can speak truth at times, but when push comes to shove, choosing their ruminations over the Godly out of hand?  No bueno.  You can't possibly know that you haven't fallen for the lies Scripture warns about, that even the elect will be fooled, if that were possible.  Pretty serious warning there. You don't even question yourself or your decision to take the pagan model and skip the Scriptural one  You instantly disregarded Scripture's words in favor of pagan words in a time when deception is rampant.  Risky business.      
    Cosmas and Enoch are not authorities, godly or otherwise.  They aren't bishops or Saints or Church Fathers.  Enoch wasn't even a Christian, since he lived before the time of Christ.  They are just some people who wrote down their ideas. There is no reason to give them precedence over anyone else. 

    Very little is known about Cosmas.  Many scholars think he was a Nestorian.  And virtually nothing is known about the author of the apocryphal Book of Enoch, other than the time period in which he wrote.  It was not the Enoch mentioned in Scripture.

    Practically every heresy that has ever existed was based on misinterpreting Scripture so I am not going to automatically accept claims just because there are some Scripture quotes thrown into them.  I test everything against Church teaching and physical reality.  This is not a disregard for Scripture but basic prudence.  

    When it comes to the shape of the earth, there are pagan authors who measure up better than Cosmas and Enoch.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #144 on: May 30, 2018, 01:17:14 PM »
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  • https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/science/faith-and-science/nicolaus-copernicus.html
    "Copernicus, son of a Polish father and German mother, was a priest and the temporary administrator of the diocese of Frauenburg."
    Well, we have a priest of the Catholic Church, hiding from his bishop with his house maid, playing astrology night games and giving book time to the all-seeing eye.  
    Neil says, "Nothing wrong here. I believe Copernicus over Scripture because Scripture is unclear to me."
    Touche, happenby.
    Neil needs to read  his catechism and the concept of just war.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #145 on: May 30, 2018, 01:55:35 PM »
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  • https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/science/faith-and-science/nicolaus-copernicus.html
    "Copernicus, son of a Polish father and German mother, was a priest and the temporary administrator of the diocese of Frauenburg."
    Well, we have a priest of the Catholic Church, hiding from his bishop with his house maid, playing astrology night games and giving book time to the all-seeing eye.  
    Neil says, "Nothing wrong here. I believe Copernicus over Scripture because Scripture is unclear to me."
    .
    Here is happenby saying, "I have no idea what quotation marks signify and so I use them wherever I please to insinuate that someone has said something when they in fact never said it."
    .
    Where is your material from in your previous posts in this thread, Wikipedia?
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #146 on: May 30, 2018, 01:58:19 PM »
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  • Cosmas and Enoch are not authorities, godly or otherwise.  They aren't bishops or Saints or Church Fathers.  Enoch wasn't even a Christian, since he lived before the time of Christ.  They are just some people who wrote down their ideas. There is no reason to give them precedence over anyone else.

    When it comes to the shape of the earth, there are pagan authors who measure up better than Cosmas and Enoch.
    .
    Cosmas and Enoch could have been devil worshipers for all we know.
    That goes as well for Washington Irving, John William Draper and Andrew Dickson White.
    .
    Flat-earthers cherry-pick their heroes from obscure lost corners of history, reviving forgotten nobodies just for flatness thinking.
    .
    Flat-earthism is a gnostic cult, where you're either with them or against them.
    Most people don't want any part of the discussion, though, since it bears no relevance to anything important.
    .
    Flat-earthers are victims of their own misplaced priorities.

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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #147 on: May 30, 2018, 02:28:20 PM »
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  • .
    Here is happenby saying, "I have no idea what quotation marks signify and so I use them wherever I please to insinuate that someone has said something when they in fact never said it."
    .
    Where is your material from in your previous posts in this thread, Wikipedia?

    Wow! The link she gave, other than the short direct quote, did not say anything like what she implied was there.  There was nothing in that article to back up her claims about sorcery or anything else.  It was very positive about him:

    Quote
    After studies in the universities of Krakow (where Pope John Paul II studied and taught), Bologna, Padua and Ferrara, he became a prominent jurist and mathematician and also practiced medicine for six years, donating his service to the poor. The polymath pioneered reform of the monetary system as it was developing in his day and did it so well that he was made an economic advisor to the government of Prussia. In what little spare time he had, he translated into Latin for posterity the Greek letters of Theophylactus.

    I thought this was especially important:

    Quote
    He was too careful a theologian to muddle astronomy with astrology as did Galileo, nor did he insist unscientifically that his theory was absolute fact, a mistake which got Galileo into trouble.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #148 on: May 30, 2018, 02:47:20 PM »
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  • .
    So the thread on St. Augustine has devolved into a thread on some other guy's girlfriend.
    And if he HAD a girlfriend, he certainly must have been worshiping the devil, too. Eh? What is your source?
    The grapevine of jealous women with too much time on their hands?
    Whoever it is they can't manage to spell Nicolaus correctly. Maybe they're gossiping about someone else.
    The source is a tourist attraction which publishes this LEGEND on their website to make it seem more romantic.

    https://gotykhouse.eu/en/the-legend-of-anne-schilling/

    It does not even pretend to be history.  But apparently it does not matter if there is no good reason to think it is true if it blackens the name of Copernicus.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: St. Augustine believed the earth is a sphere
    « Reply #149 on: May 30, 2018, 03:06:47 PM »
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  • In De revolutionibus 1:10, mystic imagery presents the universe as a beautiful temple lit by the great, all-seeing lantern at its centre. The obvious parallel is to the neo-Platonic thinkers of Italy, where Copernicus was a student from 1496 to 1503, who were rediscovering their own versions of the wisdom of sages like Hermes Trismegistus and recalibrating the occult arts. A good deal of this work, while not strictly illicit, was certainly quite risqué, so it is a strange thing to be invoking if Copernicus really was carefully trying to avoid treading on the toes of any

    theologians.http://jameshannam.com/copernicus.htm

    It is interesting to see you quoting Hannam when you have rejected him as a source when I have cited him.  Just a few paragraphs before the passage you quote here, he says "Contrary to popular belief, no educated person in the Middle Ages thought the Earth was flat."  You have claimed he is an unreliable source when I have used him in support of this point.