Author Topic: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa  (Read 1779 times)

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Offline An even Seven

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Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2017, 09:58:57 AM »
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  • I'm fairly certain that we are allowed to interpret scripture literally. At least in a traditional sense.

    AES: Feel free to respond or not but a traditionally literal interpretation means how the author intended it to mean. It does not mean to take the translated words, from the original language, and give them the meaning you think it means. This is how the Protestants justify their distortion of Scriptures.

     Modernists of course do not want scripture to be interpreted literally. I'm not saying you're a Modernist. But the Globe-earth system certainly is Modernist, though most globe-earth advocates are not aware of it.

    AES: Please explain just how Globe-Earth is modernist if some of the Church Fathers believed the Earth a globe.

    That's all I'm going to say on the matter for now, since you have a habit of not thinking logically about any responses I tend to give. Not much point in saying more about it to you.

    AES: This is a typical response from someone who knows they don't have an argument. If you think I'm wrong show me with proof and not opinion and emotion. You say you are allowed to interpret Scripture how you want. Show me proof of this from the Catholic Church's Teachings.
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #31 on: October 12, 2017, 10:42:19 AM »
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  • Quote
    John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith: "Further, some hold that the earth is in theformof a sphere, others that it is in that of acone. At all events it is much smallerthan theheaven, andsuspendedalmost like a point in its midst. And it will pass away and be changed. Butblessedis the man who inherits the earth promised to the meek (Matthew 5:5) ."


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    John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith: "The eclipse of the moon, on the other hand, is due to the shadow the earth casts on it when it is a fifteen days' moon and the sun and moon happen to be at the opposite poles of the highest circle, the sun being under the earth and the moon above the earth. For the earth casts a shadow and the sun's light is prevented from illuminating the moon, and therefore it is then eclipsed.

    Quote
    John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith: "Others have pictured theheavenas a hemisphere. Thisideais suggested by these words ofDavid, the singer of God, Who stretchest out the heavens like acurtain, by which word he clearly means a tent: and by these from theblessedIsaiah, Who has established the heavens like avaultIsaiah 40:22: and also because when the sun, moon, and stars set they make a circuit round the earth from west to north, and so reach once more the east.Still, whether it is this way or that, all things have been made and established by the divine command, and have the divinewilland counsel for a foundation that cannot be moved. For He Himself spoke and they were made: He Himself commanded and they werecreated. He has also established them for ever and ever: He has made a decree which will not pass."

    Quote
    John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith: "All, therefore, who hold that theheavenis in theformof a sphere, say that it is equally removed and distant from the earth at all points, whether above, orsideways, or below. And by 'below' and 'sideways' I mean all that comes within the range of our senses. For it follows from what has been said, that theheavenoccupies the whole of the upper region and the earth the whole of the lower. They say, besides, that theheavenencircles the earth in the manner of a sphere, and bears along with it in its most rapid revolutions sun, moon and stars, and that when the sun is over the earth it becomes day there, and when it is under the earth it isnight. And, again, when the sun goes under the earth it is night here, but day yonder."
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.


    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #32 on: October 12, 2017, 10:57:11 AM »
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    Jerome, Letter 124 to Avitus: "And concerning the heavenly bodies we must make a similar acknowledgment. The soul of the sun— or whatever else you like to call it— does not date its existence from the creation of the world; it already existed before it entered its shining and glowing body. So also with the moon and stars. From antecedent causes they have been made subject to vanity not willingly but for future reward, (Romans 8:20) and are forced to do not their own will but the creator's who has assigned to them their several spheres.

    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #33 on: October 12, 2017, 11:08:29 AM »
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  • Why should we bother with globe-earth quotes when you do not give the slightest consideration to the flat earth quotes?? You ignore all of those, but these are somehow worthy of a response? Why?
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    You already got one wrong. You thought it was a globe earth quote from Eusebius, and it was shown to be a flat earth quote!
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    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #34 on: October 12, 2017, 11:25:18 AM »
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  • Why should we bother with globe-earth quotes when you do not give the slightest consideration to the flat earth quotes?? You ignore all of those, but these are somehow worthy of a response? Why?
    Which one(s)? The Lacantius quote? I admit that he is pretty opposed to antipodes, but he excoriates the Globe Earth idea on the grounds of philosophy alone. He did NOT think it a matter of religious importance. Again, you guys have nothing when it comes to proving FE from a religious perspective. Yet you condemn those who disagree as heretics and going to hell.

    Quote
    You already got one wrong. You thought it was a globe earth quote from Eusebius, and it was shown to be a flat earth quote!
    I didn't get it wrong. You just want to trust kiwiboy, a FEer, who got his translation from the internet, more than you want to trust the translation from someone who speaks the original language.
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.


    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #35 on: October 12, 2017, 12:59:12 PM »
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  • Which one(s)? The Lacantius quote? I admit that he is pretty opposed to antipodes, but he excoriates the Globe Earth idea on the grounds of philosophy alone. He did NOT think it a matter of religious importance. Again, you guys have nothing when it comes to proving FE from a religious perspective. Yet you condemn those who disagree as heretics and going to hell.
    I didn't get it wrong. You just want to trust kiwiboy, a FEer, who got his translation from the internet, more than you want to trust the translation from someone who speaks the original language.
    You don't need google. You can use any translate website you like to look up "kyklos."
    ..
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    You don't even admit it when you are shown to be wrong.
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    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #36 on: October 12, 2017, 01:15:40 PM »
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  • Before I address the interesting quotes above, I want to establish what exactly it is your are trying to do?

    Because it seems that you are trying to say that the earth is a globe. Can you be clear what you think it is?


    For the sake of people who don't have time to read the ridiculously long threads, I will just expose the dishonesty of Even Seven. I have already explained to him that it is pointless arguing about the earth being a globe in the theological realm, because the science shows that it is not.

    I have also explained to him that the issue of the flatness of the earth, is a relatively new way of looking at things. It is creation taken as a whole. It only became emphasized when large masses of people started believing that the earth was a globe from the 1500's onwards. And especially so in the modern day since we can show it is not a globe (at least of 25000 miles) with modern high zoom technology. But even seven has refused to look at that.

    The way that the ancients looked at it was the whole of creation. Not just the flatness of earth. It is like trying to have a theological discussion on whether the sun is 3000 or 4000 miles away. What the Fathers were doing was CONDEMNING ERROR. In this case most of them thought that the idea that the earth was sphere was an error, even if it was not spelt out exactly what it POSITIVELY WAS. So we are entitled to believe that it is flat and this is what annoys him. Even without looking at the science, but this should be self evident when you consider the fact that it things like the fact that the firmament is solid.

    I just wanted to state all this for the honest reader out there, so they can judge his integrity aright.

    I will get to his points now if I have time...


    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #37 on: October 12, 2017, 01:38:01 PM »
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  • Before I address the interesting quotes above, I want to establish what exactly it is your are trying to do?

    Because it seems that you are trying to say that the earth is a globe. Can you be clear what you think it is?


    For the sake of people who don't have time to read the ridiculously long threads, I will just expose the dishonesty of Even Seven. I have already explained to him that it is pointless arguing about the earth being a globe in the theological realm, because the science shows that it is not.


    I just wanted to state all this for the honest reader out there, so they can judge his integrity aright.

    I will get to his points now if I have time...
    My point is that it is dishonest to try to prove the FE from the Church Fathers and Scripture. Why I am using the quotes from the Fathers is to prove that most of the Fathers either a) did not believe the Earth was flat or b) didn't care because it was not essential to the faith nor consider it relevant. The ones who condemned Globe Earth did so on philosophical grounds or because of all the nonsense intertwined with it on the part of the pagans. 
    My problem is that there are a lot of posters here who teach that FE is a Dogma of the Church or something close, which if denied, will result in a loss of salvation. FE is something that one is free to believe in my opinion(although it would have to be one big conspiracy) but not something that can be proven from Scripture or the Fathers nor can on be condemned for denying it.
    This is what I have maintained since the beginning and you seem to want to debate the FE with me. I really don't care what the shape of the Earth is, like the majority of the Fathers.
    If you have a problem with this and this alone, I am happy to address it, but I don't want to debate the FE because I don't want to fill my head with unimportant things that serve as a distraction to the relevant salvific issues of today.
    I am not dishonest. I truly don't care whether FE is true.
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.


    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #38 on: October 12, 2017, 03:11:36 PM »
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  • Well you have failed  on point "A" trying to prove that most Fathers did not believe the earth was flat. Wherever they talked about it, most attacked the globe idea, meaning they thought like EVERYONE else that it was flat.

    You are also dishonest because you are now saying that the majority of Fathers didn't care. That is an OUTRIGHT LIE, and you know it. (I will address the last set of quotes in a minute.) They did not reject it simply because it was pagan. Most pagans thought it was flat. It was only a minority of greeks who thought it was round. So that one won't wash.

    You say you don't care what shape the earth is, but you SHOULD care. Very much so. It is pretty foundational to the world we live it. Whatever you do, you cannot say it is a globe. If you reject the globe, you will come to flat earth eventually. But you need to study the science.

    Because it is part of Gods creation Flat Earthers are right to reject error concerning it. More especially so when they are backed up on science.


    So on the latter set of quotes,

    The Clement of Alexandria quote is seemingly the most explicit. I couldn't manage to get a proper translation of it this time, but doing some linguistic reverse-engineering I was able to see that other languages translate it as "world" and not sphere. The point is clear here that it seems that it was poetic license by the translator to put in sphere. The original greek is here http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Clement%20of%20Alexandria_PG%2008-09/Paedagogus.pdf for those who want to check it out. The wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedagogus



    The other quotes prove nothing! I mean did you even READ THEM? This is just getting ridiculous. St. John Damascus does not even say what he thought. He just says "at all events...". Again go back to basic logic please.

    The other quotes simply show that he seemed to think that the Sun and moon went under the flat earth. Not totally ridiculous because that is what appears to our eyes and Enoch thought so also.

    The last quote is totally ridiculous because it is so far removed from what we are talking about, that I honestly think you just put that in there for effect. why? Because it is talking about how the HEAVENS are a sphere not the earth! In other words the dome above and dome below.


    Believing that the earth is a globe is modernist is because it is the attachment to modern thought which is the essence of modernism (hence the name!). But also because of the fideistic nature of modernism which rejects evidence put in front of ones eyes to contradict a notion one has. Something you are doing MASTERFULLY by refusing to look into the science.


    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #39 on: October 12, 2017, 07:43:47 PM »
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  • The other quotes simply show that he seemed to think that the Sun and moon went under the flat earth. Not totally ridiculous because that is what appears to our eyes and Enoch thought so also.





    It occurred to me that maybe they came up with the erroneous idea of the globe BECAUSE they erroneously believed the sun "went under" the earth.
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    They did not understand perspective. They did not understand the sun did not "go down" or "go under." It simply disappeared at the vanishing point from their perspective. Meanwhile, the sun continued on in its level path across the sky, as we know from present day time zones: when the sun goes down in the eastern time zone it is still "up" (level) in the central time zone.
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    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #40 on: October 13, 2017, 07:43:11 AM »
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  • Well you have failed  on point "A" trying to prove that most Fathers did not believe the earth was flat. Wherever they talked about it, most attacked the globe idea, meaning they thought like EVERYONE else that it was flat.

    AES: That is a lie. I have posted more quotes for the Fathers either being for Globe Earth or indifferent to Flat Earth. This is dishonest. On top of all that, Scripture never says explicitly that the Earth is Flat and the Church has never declared it to be.


    You say you don't care what shape the earth is, but you SHOULD care. Very much so. It is pretty foundational to the world we live it.

    AES: I don't have to care. It's not a teaching of the Church and will not help or hinder me for Salvation.

    Whatever you do, you cannot say it is a globe.

    AES: It's a globe, it's a globe, it's a globe. Probably. Do you see what you made me do. The whole FE thing is discredited for me because of liars like you who disregard facts.

    So on the latter set of quotes,

    The Clement of Alexandria quote is seemingly the most explicit. I couldn't manage to get a proper translation of it this time, but doing some linguistic reverse-engineering I was able to see that other languages translate it as "world" and not sphere. The point is clear here that it seems that it was poetic license by the translator to put in sphere. The original greek is here http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Clement%20of%20Alexandria_PG%2008-09/Paedagogus.pdf for those who want to check it out. The wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedagogus

    AES: The shape that they call them isn't even the most relevant thing about some of the quotes.
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.


    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #41 on: October 13, 2017, 09:18:20 AM »
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  • - It is not a lie. You have posted quotes that have been discredited. The only one which I conceded was the Gregory of Nyssa one, but even if there were more, the point is we have more. See the video I posted. The flatness of the earth is only one aspect of God's creation. What is condemned is the globe idea. Very clearly by the fathers. http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition

    - Whether or not it affects your personal salvation is up to God to judge not me. But the truth is the truth and all who want to get to heaven must accept it.

    - When I said you cannot say it is a globe, it did not mean you could not literally say it. Why should I have to point this out? And you do have a nerve to talk about disregarding facts when you do not have the fathers to support you and you will not even LOOK at the science. All the best with that fideistic attitude.

    - On the last point, I don't know what you are talking about. I made myself pretty clear that the english translator inserted globe into the english. The rest of the quotes are unimportant for the reasons I gave. You on the other hand don't give reasons, you just parrot the same thing over and over, hoping to wear down our patience.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #42 on: October 13, 2017, 09:44:22 AM »
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  • - It is not a lie. You have posted quotes that have been discredited. The only one which I conceded was the Gregory of Nyssa one, but even if there were more, the point is we have more. See the video I posted. The flatness of the earth is only one aspect of God's creation. What is condemned is the globe idea. Very clearly by the fathers. http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition

    AES: You only discredited it in you own mind. Further, I don't care what you concede. The quotes speak for themselves. The Globe idea is not condemned. You need to prove that and you haven't. Also, the link you provide gives 4 quotes from the Fathers and only 1, Lacatius, condemns the idea. I have provided ample quotes from the Fathers that totally refute the claim that the majority of the Fathers condemned the idea of a Flat Earth. I'll compile them and put them in the Library section for all to see.


    - Whether or not it affects your personal salvation is up to God to judge not me. But the truth is the truth and all who want to get to heaven must accept it.

    AES: You cannot even see the contradiction in your statement because you are so blinded by your pride. You claim FE is Truth right? Above you say essentially that "you can't judge". Immediately after you imply that those who do not accept the "truth" of FE will not make it to heaven. You are implicitly making a judgment on all who do not accept FE.


    - When I said you cannot say it is a globe, it did not mean you could not literally say it. Why should I have to point this out?

    AES: I was having fun with you. I knew what you meant. You kiwis are a serious folk aren't you. There is no humor when discussing fake dogmas.



    - On the last point, I don't know what you are talking about.

    AES: I was speaking of the fact that some of the quotes make it clear that this whole issue is irrelevant to our salvation.
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #43 on: October 13, 2017, 10:24:54 AM »
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  • An Even Seven,

    You say that you "could care less" about the shape of the earth, but this doesn't make sense.

    To say that you "could care less" indicates neutrality, but you are not neutral. You only attack flat earthers. You've never once, to my knowledge, attacked globe earthers. It's not possible, then, that you "could care less."

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: St. Augustin and St. Macrina/St. Gregory Nyssa
    « Reply #44 on: October 13, 2017, 10:41:13 AM »
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  • An Even Seven,

    You say that you "could care less" about the shape of the earth, but this doesn't make sense.

    To say that you "could care less" indicates neutrality, but you are not neutral.

    AES: First, I think you mean "couldn't care less". "Could care less" indicates that I "care some", which I do not. If I phrased it like that in the past I apologize because I don't care even some. At least whether the Earth is shaped flat, square, or spherical.




     You only attack flat earthers. You've never once, to my knowledge, attacked globe earthers. It's not possible, then, that you "could care less."

    AES: I researched FE a while ago, before I saw it being presented on CI. Back then I was open to the idea because I had not seen it presented using Scripture and the Fathers in a religious way. When seeing the comments here on CI about it being Dogmatic and the like, that's when I thought something was wrong. The reason I "attack" (lol) FEers here is because the majority, if not all, present it as something that must be believed at least under pain of mortal sin. Seeing you all present it like this has given me great pause. I can see that it is clearly meant as a distraction from the Truths of the Faith.
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

     

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