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Author Topic: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE  (Read 2588 times)

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Offline Mat183

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Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
« on: October 15, 2025, 10:29:01 AM »
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  • Grok fires away.
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    What if any speculative reasoning in Catholic theology has been propounded as to why God would create a flat earth instead of a globular earth and what if any speculative reasoning in Catholic theology has been propounded as to why God would create a globular earth instead of a flat earth?

    Speculative Reasoning for a Flat Earth in Catholic Theology

    While the Catholic Church has never officially taught or endorsed a flat earth model—and historical evidence shows that most Church fathers and medieval theologians accepted a spherical earth—there have been rare, speculative arguments from early Christian thinkers who favored a flat earth. These were outliers, often rooted in literal biblical interpretations and a desire to align cosmology with scriptural imagery and perceived logical consistency. They were not representative of mainstream Catholic theology but provide examples of propounded reasoning:

    • Alignment with Biblical Descriptions and Divine Simplicity: Early Church father Lactantius (c. 245–325 AD), a Christian apologist and advisor to Emperor Constantine, argued against a spherical earth in his work Divine Institutions. He speculated that God created a flat earth to avoid absurdities inherent in a globe, such as people on the "underside" (antipodes) walking upside down or rain falling upward, which he saw as contrary to reason and divine order. A flat earth, in his view, reflects God's rational design, where gravity and human experience are uniform, preventing such illogical scenarios. This also fits scriptural passages like Isaiah 40:22 (God "sits above the circle of the earth") and Psalm 104:5 (earth set on foundations so it cannot be moved), interpreted literally as a stable, flat plane under a dome-like firmament. God would create it flat to make the cosmos comprehensible and aligned with human perception, emphasizing His role as a logical Creator who avoids needless complexity.
    • Symbolic Representation of Sacred Architecture: The 6th-century Byzantine monk Cosmas Indicopleustes, in his Christian Topography, proposed a flat earth as part of a universe shaped like the biblical Tabernacle of Moses (Exodus 25–27). He speculated that God designed the earth as a flat, rectangular base (twice as long east-to-west as north-to-south) with a vaulted heaven above, mirroring the Tabernacle's floor and arched covering. This form symbolizes the cosmos as God's dwelling place or "tent," with the flat earth as the foundation for humanity's spiritual journey. Theologically, this allows for a clear hierarchy: heaven above as the divine realm, earth in the middle as the stage for salvation history, and the abyss below. God would create it flat to pedagogically instruct believers through physical symbolism, making the universe a "visible scripture" that points to eternal truths, such as Christ's incarnation bridging heaven and earth. Cosmas drew from passages like Job 26:7 (earth hangs over nothing) and Hebrews 8:5 (earthly tabernacle as copy of heavenly pattern), arguing this design glorifies God by integrating cosmology with revelation.
    These views were criticized even in their time (e.g., by John Philoponus, who defended a spherical model) and represent speculative fringes rather than doctrine. Modern Catholic theology dismisses them as incompatible with science and unnecessary for faith.

    Speculative Reasoning for a Globular (Spherical) Earth in Catholic Theology

    Catholic theology has long accommodated a spherical earth, with figures like St. Bede (c. 673–735 AD), St. Albert the Great (c. 1200–1280 AD), and St. Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274 AD) explicitly affirming it based on Aristotelian philosophy, astronomical observations, and scriptural harmony. Speculative reasons focus on the sphere as a symbol of divine perfection, order, and providence, though the Church has no dogma requiring a specific shape—emphasizing instead that creation reflects God's wisdom regardless.

    • Symbolism of Divine Perfection and Unity: St. Thomas Aquinas, in his Summa Theologica (I, q. 47, a. 1) and commentary on Aristotle's De Caelo, integrates the spherical earth into a cosmology where the sphere is the most perfect geometric form. He speculates that God created a globular earth because the sphere embodies completeness, with no beginning or end, uniform in all directions, and capable of eternal, harmonious motion—mirroring God's infinite, unchanging nature (as in Psalm 102:25–27). Unlike a flat shape with edges implying limitation, a sphere reflects divine unity and wholeness, allowing the earth to be a microcosm of the celestial spheres, which move in perfect circles. This design glorifies God by manifesting mathematical beauty and rational order in creation, as the sphere naturally accommodates gravity pulling toward a center, ensuring stability and balance. Aquinas cites proofs like lunar eclipses showing earth's round shadow, but theologically, it's about God's artistry: a globular earth demonstrates His supreme reason, making the universe a testament to His perfection (Romans 1:20).
    • Providential Harmony and Universal Accessibility: Medieval theologians like Roger Bacon (c. 1219–1292 AD) and later Catholic thinkers speculated that a spherical earth facilitates God's providential plan for all humanity. A globe allows for diverse climates and peoples (antipodes included), ensuring that salvation history—centered on Christ—can reach all corners without geographical barriers, symbolizing the universality of the Church (Matthew 28:19). God would create it spherical to emphasize equity: no "top" or "bottom" privileges any group, reflecting divine justice and the idea that all creation orbits under His gaze. This counters flat-earth "absurdities" by positing a unified gravitational field, where "down" is always toward the center, aligning with observed phenomena like ships disappearing hull-first over the horizon. Theologically, it underscores creation's purpose as a harmonious whole, ordered toward contemplation of God, as in St. Augustine's view of the world as a "book" revealing the Creator.

    In summary, flat-earth speculations in Catholic thought are rare and historical, emphasizing literal scripture and symbolic simplicity, while globular-earth reasoning is more prevalent, highlighting perfection, harmony, and divine wisdom. These are speculative, not binding, as Catholic teaching prioritizes faith over cosmological details, affirming that God's reasons ultimately transcend human understanding (Isaiah 55:8–9).








    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #1 on: October 15, 2025, 12:21:51 PM »
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  • I find it more interesting and useful to investigate and explore

    What is the nature of the universe God created?

    Rather than

    What reasons would motivate God to create different kinds of universes?

    It's as if they don't think the answer to the CONCRETE VERSION OF THE QUESTION is attainable. Why not ask what kind of universe DID God create? The answer should be all around us, discoverable by science. The truth absolutely is attainable, with moral certainty. Truth can be found, seized and held.
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    Offline Mat183

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #2 on: October 15, 2025, 02:27:41 PM »
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  •  A simple abbreviated, yet profound, prayer/act of Catholic faith said more or less verbatim as follows by a good number of Catholics every day around the world goes as follows:  "Oh, my God I believe that Thou are three Divine Persons in One God: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  I believe that Thy Divine Son Jesus became man, died for our sins and that He shall come again to judge the living and the dead.  I believe these truths and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches because Thou canst neither deceive nor be deceived. 

    Interesting to note is that a good number of Catholics believe that the Earth is flat and that the Church either directly and or indirectly teaches that it is flat while a good number of Catholics believe that the  Earth is a globe and that the Church either directly and or indirectly teaches that it is a globe.  And yet, it would seem safe to presume that a good number in both camps say the above prayer on a regular basis.
     

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #3 on: October 15, 2025, 09:10:46 PM »
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  • ... most Church fathers and medieval theologians accepted a spherical earth ...

    This is actually quite false.  I just accepted this until I actually requested the evidence, and nearly every single quote required reading NASA ball into every mention of sphere, and even circle or roundness, made by a Church Father ... and in some cases if you just look in the sentence just before or just after it, the ball earth reading was actually falsified in the immediate context.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #4 on: October 15, 2025, 09:27:32 PM »
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  • And can we all agree that there is ZERO mentions in Church teaching (the Magisterium) talking about the whole "NASA package". But people who push this argument swallow the whole NASA package: rockets, space exploration, other planets/moons you could land equipment and people on, possible aliens, earth spiraling through the universe, earth being located in the "boonies" of the Universe, the sun and stars being MUCH farther away than they actually are, etc.

    When "scientists" tried to prove the earth moved *in any way* they utterly failed. They even came up with the most ridiculous of excuses to explain away the experiment's results. I couldn't believe it when I learned that. And I only learned that because I was studying flat earth.

    The explanation was something like "there was a distortion in the measurement device (like a ruler), making it contract PRECISELY THE RIGHT AMOUNT which made it look like the earth wasn't moving, when in fact it was moving." You can't make this stuff up.

    These people are *desperate* to believe in the standard Big Bang cosmology. The idea that God created us, that we are all under His footstool, completely under Him, completely in His power, utterly terrifies them.

    Just look at the infamous quote from Hubble (the namesake of the Hubble Telescope):

    (From another post of mine:)
    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/balloon-footage-it's-flat/msg974646/#msg974646


    Quote
    Quote from the second video from Edwin Hubble (who the Hubble Telescope was named after) --

    "...is intolerable... and to escape the horror of a unique position..."

    Here is the fuller quote:
    "But the unwelcome supposition of a favoured location must be avoided at all costs… Such a favoured position, of course, is intolerable… Therefore, in order to restore homogeneity, and to escape the horror of a unique position..."

    Stop. Think about that. Let that sink in.

    Hubble is freaking out because the scientific evidence suggests we are NOT in a random location in "space", but in a unique position, like were were created on purpose. He is WILLFULLY CHOOSING to exclude this scientific evidence ON PHILOSOPHICAL GROUNDS because he doesn't like the conclusion it demands. He is not invincibly ignorant, but WILLFULLY ignoring the truth. Willfully fleeing from the conclusion that God created the realm we live in.

    Horror? Yes, I understand why he would think that. All who flee from God will experience horror on their deathbed, and especially at the Particular Judgment before God. All who live ungodly lives recoil in horror at the thought of having to render an account to God of their lives.

    "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

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    Offline Mat183

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #5 on: October 15, 2025, 11:16:07 PM »
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  • As an aside, does anyone know if Fr. Leonard Feeney believed in FE or GE?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #6 on: October 16, 2025, 01:45:59 PM »
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  • As an aside, does anyone know if Fr. Leonard Feeney believed in FE or GE?

    No, and I also don't know whether he liked cream and/or sugar in his coffee.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #7 on: October 16, 2025, 01:52:17 PM »
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  • As an aside, does anyone know if Fr. Leonard Feeney believed in FE or GE?

    Well, he didn't use the Internet. So I guess you need to get off the Internet.
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    Offline Mat183

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #8 on: October 16, 2025, 02:52:40 PM »
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  • Without wishing to cause any undue triggering, who are the most prominent living traditional Catholics who promote flat Earth with hyperlinks to same if they use the Internet to platform their FE beliefs?

    Online gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 03:44:59 PM »
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  • Grok fires away.

    Who cares?  Who created and controls Grok?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Online gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 03:50:39 PM »
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  • Without wishing to cause any undue triggering...

    :laugh1: Nothing like a silly, disingenuous intro to a largely meaningless query.  Do a search using your own parameters and see what you find.  That said, the two most prominent ones I know are already commenting in this thread (and I am not one of them).
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Online gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 04:18:06 PM »
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  • As an aside, does anyone know if Fr. Leonard Feeney believed in FE or GE?

    With all due respect (to Fr. Feeney, that is), who cares?

    What do you believe?  Geocentrism?  Heliocentrism?  My apologies if you have made it clear elsewhere and I just did not yet see it.

    What does Grok tell you about it and do you accept what Grok tells you?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Mat183

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 09:26:18 PM »
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  •   That said, the two most prominent ones I know are already commenting in this thread (and I am not one of them).
    :laugh2:

    Offline Mat183

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 09:28:48 PM »
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  • What do you believe?  Geocentrism?  Heliocentrism? 



    Who cares.  :laugh1:

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Speculative Reasoning for FE and for GE
    « Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 09:45:33 PM »
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  • Who cares.  :laugh1:

    We do, since we're all beginning to suspect that you're just a troll ... and so answering the question would help us determine whether you're trolling.