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Author Topic: The pyramids and Noah's Flood  (Read 115486 times)

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Online Angelus

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Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
« Reply #75 on: Yesterday at 04:56:59 PM »
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  • Are you sure of your citation?

    This piqued my curiosity, so I went to Ia, Q68, A1, but I don't find these words anywhere???

    His citation was incorrect, but the words were correct:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I-II.Q54.A2.Rep2

    Ad secundum dicendum quod terram esse rotundam per aliud medium demonstrat naturalis, et per aliud astrologus, astrologus enim hoc demonstrat per media mathematica, sicut per figuras eclipsium, vel per aliud huiusmodi; naturalis vero hoc demonstrat per medium naturale, sicut per motum gravium ad medium, vel per aliud huiusmodi. Tota autem virtus demonstrationis, quae est syllogismus faciens scire, ut dicitur in I Poster., dependet ex medio. Et ideo diversa media sunt sicut diversa principia activa, secundum quae habitus scientiarum diversificantur.

    Reply Obj. 2: The physicist proves the earth to be round by one means, the astronomer by another: for the latter proves this by means of mathematics, e.g., by the shapes of eclipses, or something of the sort; while the former proves it by means of physics, e.g., by the movement of heavy bodies towards the center, and so forth. Now the whole force of a demonstration, which is a syllogism producing science, as stated in Poster. i, text. 5, depends on the mean. And consequently various means are as so many active principles, in respect of which the habits of science are distinguished.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rotundus#Latin

    Etymology

    Generally regarded as deriving from rotō (“turn, revolve”) or rota (“wheel”) +‎ -undus. First attested in the works of Cato the Elder(circa 200 BC).

    It has also been suggested that the alternative form retundus, whence most of the Romance descendants derive, actually reflects the original Latin form (despite only being attested from the seventh century CE). If so, the first element would derive from an older *retō, from Proto-Indo-European *Hreth₂- (cf. Proto-Celtic *reteti), and the Classical rotundus would reflect later influence from rota(“wheel”).[1] Both theories regardless trace back to *Hreth₂-.

    Pronunciation

    Adjective
    rotundus (feminine rotunda, neuter rotundumcomparative rotundiorsuperlative rotundissimus); first/second-declensionadjective



    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #76 on: Yesterday at 05:08:08 PM »
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  • Are you sure of your citation?

    This piqued my curiosity, so I went to Ia, Q68, A1, but I don't find these words anywhere???
    Ai often just makes things up. Basically don't use ai for things like this unless you really push it to give you the correct source, and then you need manually check if it was correct 


    Offline Freind

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 05:17:27 PM »
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  • Latin?

    You do know that a ball can be described BOTH as being round AND a sphere, right?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #78 on: Yesterday at 05:34:29 PM »
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  • So, rotundity is best translated by "round", which doesn't necessarily refer to sphericity, and neither does the Latin term ... which can be round and flat, like a wheel, or more like a ball, depending on context.

    https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=rotundus&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059

    So, the ancients, including the Romans, considered the shape of the world to be round in the sense of the "orbis terrarum" which is surround by a "circle of the Ocean", and the term rotundus would aptly describe that as well.




    Now, I can't rule out that St. Thomas believed that the earth was shaped like a ball or a sphere, but finding him using the term "rotund" does not prove that, and the other place where he mentions this was when he was doing a Commentary on Aristotle, but young students who did "Commentaries" would have been considered guilty of hubris for second-guessing and disagreeing with some of Aristotle's caliber, and it would have been out of line for him to promote his own opinion in that context rather than simply explaining Aristotle's opinion.

    But ... I'm not sure why we're wasting time on this.  Even IF St. Thomas believed the earth was a NASA ball (vs. a sphere in the shape of the ancient Hebrew cosmology, a sphere/ball like a snow globe), even IF he believed that ... with all due respect to St. Thomas ... who cares?  They didn't have a lot of great optics or other instruments for conducting experiments, and St. Thomas was not primarily a natural scientist.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #79 on: Yesterday at 05:38:21 PM »
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  • You do know that a ball can be described BOTH as being round AND a sphere, right?

    ... and, conversely, that round can refer to either a wheel (flat disc) or a sphere also?  Your point?


    Offline Freind

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #80 on: Yesterday at 05:43:14 PM »
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  • ... and, conversely, that round can refer to either a wheel (flat disc) or a sphere also?  Your point?

    No, a sphere pertains to three dimensions. A three dimensional item always contains a two-dimensional "round" description. Not vice versa. 

    The context of use means everything.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 07:22:16 PM »
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  • No, a sphere pertains to three dimensions. A three dimensional item always contains a two-dimensional "round" description. Not vice versa.

    The context of use means everything.

    No, the context is merely that which you decide to "read into" it, your personal "eisegesis".  I'm not sure what the babble above means.  What I said is that the word "rotundus" in Latin done not necessarily mean a sphere, but could be something two-dimensional.  St. Thomas simply uses the Latin "rotundus", which globers claim refers to a sphere, but that's not necessarily true, and there's no "context" in the citation above that requires that it be read as a "sphere" other than your own wishful thinking and confirmation bias, where you imagine that he used a word that means "sphere", which he did not.

    No one has yet provided a citation of the Latin for the Commentary on Aristotle that someone translated as "sphere".

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #82 on: Yesterday at 07:32:39 PM »
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  • You do know that a ball can be described BOTH as being round AND a sphere, right?

    All spheres are round, but not all round things are spheres.  You get that, right?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Freind

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    Re: The pyramids and Noah's Flood
    « Reply #83 on: Today at 06:22:20 AM »
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  • All spheres are round, but not all round things are spheres.  You get that, right?

    A "yes" would have been sufficient.