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Author Topic: Round Earth reference?  (Read 149263 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Round Earth reference?
« Reply #165 on: February 06, 2025, 04:28:23 PM »
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  • Correct.
    There is nothing wrong in believing that the view of the middle ages can be "overturned in response to new evidence."


    Somehow you keep arguing that the Middle Ages' view is untouchable, even as you admit (above) that it's not.  Your views are highly contradictory.

    I am not saying medieval science is untouchable.  I'm saying it reveals how Catholics interpreted Scripture for over a thousand years.  They believed Scripture was compatible with belief in globe earth.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #166 on: February 06, 2025, 04:31:17 PM »
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  •  The fact that you keep downplaying the consensus of the ancient cultures, shows you are biased. 
    I certainly am biased toward medieval Catholics over ancient cultures. You seem to think this is a bad thing.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #167 on: February 06, 2025, 04:37:07 PM »
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  • Quote
    I am not saying medieval science is untouchable.  I'm saying it reveals how Catholics interpreted Scripture for over a thousand years.  They believed Scripture was compatible with belief in globe earth.
    :laugh1::laugh2::laugh1::laugh2::laugh1::laugh2:  You just finished arguing that Scripture is "silent" on the shape of the globe, and now you're saying that the Middle Age view is based on scripture?


    I thought the Middle Age view was based on science, from St Bede and St Thomas?

    You just keep changing your story...:facepalm:

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #168 on: February 06, 2025, 04:38:21 PM »
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  • It is true that many people treat science like a religion but I am not one of them.  I have said many times that Catholics can believe the earth is flat if they base this on science, but not on false claims about theology or Catholic history.

    Over the years, I have provided lists of prominent medieval Catholics who believed in a spherical earth and quotes of many specific passages.  Every time you come up with an excuse for rejecting it or simply move the goal posts.  There is clearly no proof that you will accept.  I post these things for other people.

    I don't agree that you don't treat science like a religion. One that is equal to, or greater than, the Catholic Church.

    I do not recall the quotes from what you have posted over the years, regarding what Catholics believed throughout the history of the Church. If you are going to contribute your belief that a ball earth was commonly held throughout the history of the Church, then you should be willing to also provide proof.

    It's true that I might reject the proof that you provide, if I think that what you provide does not represent the commonly held view of ALL Catholics, not just some of your university elites.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #169 on: February 06, 2025, 04:45:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    I certainly am biased toward medieval Catholics over ancient cultures. You seem to think this is a bad thing.
    No, no, no.  You're missing the bigger picture.

    The ancient civilizations had both a) Revealed truths to Adam from God and also b) science/discoveries and c) purity of belief, prior to the Greek culture, which was anti-Isrealite.

    The Middle Ages only has (b) science, much of which was corrupted by the Greeks. 

    You're downplaying/ignoring the truths God revealed/Adam discovered, which were handed down (i.e. oral traditions of science...not to be confused with oral traditions of Apostolic dogma).  You're also ignoring that the pre-Greek cultures were not infiltrated with errors of hellenization.  You must not be familiar with how much the Greeks influenced culture and tried to destroy the Isrealite religion, much like the Modernists today try to destroy Catholicism.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #170 on: February 06, 2025, 04:56:31 PM »
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  • I have been trying to hunt this down because I've seen it, but misplaced it.  You can find it at the end of his discourse on the globe regarding the beliefs of Aristotle.

    I've tracked it down.  There was an article that took some words of St. Thomas out of context to make it look like he was saying the earth is flat.  In fact, the context shows it is the view of neither Aristotle nor St. Thomas, but of others .  We had a thread about it here: https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/flat-earth-priest-responds-to-tradidi-claims-over-st-thomas/

    H
    ere is an English translation of the passage which shows which words were removed along with comments from me.

    =============================
    This quote does not come from St. Thomas's conclusion.  It comes from an earlier section commenting on Aristotle describing and discarding incorrect arguments.  Here it is in context at 493.  I have underlined the part omitted in the article of the OP.  It clearly changes the meaning of the passage.

    "493. He gives a second argument at [352] and says that they add a further argument for the same, namely, that if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat. For a spherical shape is easy to move, because so little of it is in contact with a plane; but a wide shape is totally in contact with a plane, and is consequently apt for rest."

    This is not the position of either St. Thomas or Aristotle. This is an argument ascribed to "they" i.e. others.  This is made even more clear in the following the section: 

    "494. After rejecting the opinions of those who held false theories about the earth, the Philosopher here pursues the opinions of those who, while holding a true theory about the earth, namely, that it is at rest, assigned unsuitable explanations for the earth's rest."

    The idea that "if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat" is categorized as a "false theory about the earth". St. Thomas clearly disagrees with it.
    ========================
    Tradman you were apparently deceived by a dishonest article.  There is no teaching from St. Thomas about the earth being flat.






    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #171 on: February 06, 2025, 05:04:06 PM »
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  • It's true that I might reject the proof that you provide, if I think that what you provide does not represent the commonly held view of ALL Catholics, not just some of your university elites.
    I have already provided a reasonable amount of evidence.  You have clearly decided in advance to reject anything that does not support what you want to believe.  There is no reason for me to give any more.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #172 on: February 06, 2025, 05:05:40 PM »
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  • No, no, no.  You're missing the bigger picture.

    The ancient civilizations had both a) Revealed truths to Adam from God and also b) science/discoveries and c) purity of belief, prior to the Greek culture, which was anti-Isrealite.

    The Middle Ages only has (b) science, much of which was corrupted by the Greeks.

    You're downplaying/ignoring the truths God revealed/Adam discovered, which were handed down (i.e. oral traditions of science...not to be confused with oral traditions of Apostolic dogma).  You're also ignoring that the pre-Greek cultures were not infiltrated with errors of hellenization.  You must not be familiar with how much the Greeks influenced culture and tried to destroy the Isrealite religion, much like the Modernists today try to destroy Catholicism.

    Since St. Thomas was influenced by Greek philosophy, via Aristotle, may this have had something to do with his support of a ball earth? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #173 on: February 06, 2025, 05:13:43 PM »
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  • Quote
    "494. After rejecting the opinions of those who held false theories about the earth, the Philosopher here pursues the opinions of those who, while holding a true theory about the earth, namely, that it is at rest, assigned unsuitable explanations for the earth's rest."
    Wrong.
    St Thomas is simply disagreeing that the earth's flatness is the CAUSE of it being at rest.  He disagrees that a flat earth EXPLAINS why the earth doesn't move.

    This doesn't mean that St Thomas disagrees the earth could be flat. 


    Quote
    The idea that "if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat" is categorized as a "false theory about the earth". St. Thomas clearly disagrees with it.
    Ok.  But the earth could be both at rest and also flat....with unknown reasons/explanations (scientifically).

    Nowhere does St Thomas reject the shape of flatness.  He simply is rejecting the CORRELATION between flatness and immovability.


    Example:  Someone says that birds chirping causes rainfall.  An expert proves this untrue.  This does not mean that birds DON'T chirp.  And it doesn't mean that RAINFALL doesn't exist.  It simply means that there is no CAUSE-EFFECT/Correlation between the 2 events.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #174 on: February 06, 2025, 05:39:30 PM »
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  • So, you keep saying this, and that is in fact the prevailing opinion, but I examined the "evidence" for this assertion in at least the texts cited by Dr. Sungenis (I assume that he was relatively thorough in his many-hundred-page book), and I will have to disagree on this point.  Sungenis (as I'm sure many other thinkers do ... and some of course just repeat this assertion because they heard it somewhere else) ... Sungenis engages, IMO, in [his own term] eisegesis in interpreting the Patristic texts. 

    Yes, I have posted in the past that I disagree with many of his interpretations.  But why do you think that his exaggeration of the number of Fathers who supported spherical earth has any relevance to my assertion that there was no consensus among the Church Fathers about the earth being flat?  Are you saying there were no Fathers whatsoever who disagree with that?  You would have a hard time making a case for that position.

    St. John Damascene merely says that some Fathers said the earth was spherical and some said it was shaped like a cone (I think this latter corresponds to the snow globe model).  He does not give information on which position was more common.  And we don't need it.  He said enough to establish that there was no consensus and that is what is theologically significant.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #175 on: February 06, 2025, 05:42:42 PM »
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  • I've tracked it down.  There was an article that took some words of St. Thomas out of context to make it look like he was saying the earth is flat.  In fact, the context shows it is the view of neither Aristotle nor St. Thomas, but of others .  We had a thread about it here: https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/flat-earth-priest-responds-to-tradidi-claims-over-st-thomas/

    H
    ere is an English translation of the passage which shows which words were removed along with comments from me.

    =============================
    This quote does not come from St. Thomas's conclusion.  It comes from an earlier section commenting on Aristotle describing and discarding incorrect arguments.  Here it is in context at 493.  I have underlined the part omitted in the article of the OP.  It clearly changes the meaning of the passage.

    "493. He gives a second argument at [352] and says that they add a further argument for the same, namely, that if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat. For a spherical shape is easy to move, because so little of it is in contact with a plane; but a wide shape is totally in contact with a plane, and is consequently apt for rest."

    This is not the position of either St. Thomas or Aristotle. This is an argument ascribed to "they" i.e. others.  This is made even more clear in the following the section: 

    "494. After rejecting the opinions of those who held false theories about the earth, the Philosopher here pursues the opinions of those who, while holding a true theory about the earth, namely, that it is at rest, assigned unsuitable explanations for the earth's rest."

    The idea that "if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat" is categorized as a "false theory about the earth". St. Thomas clearly disagrees with it.
    ========================
    Tradman you were apparently deceived by a dishonest article.  There is no teaching from St. Thomas about the earth being flat.






    Thanks, Jayne.  This is the quote.  It says a lot.  St. Thomas is clear, that if the earth is stable, it must be flat.


    Concludit propositum: quod terra sit in medio mundi quia omnia corpora gravia moventur ad medium terræ. (That the earth is in the middle of the universe and all heavy bodies are moved per se to the middle of the earth ) Et sic, ex præmissis, nihil movetur in loco ad quem naturaliter movetur, quia ibi naturaliter quiescit. Sed terra aliquando movetur ad medium mundi, (from the foregoing as follows: Nothing is moved in the place toward which it is naturally moved. But the earth is naturally moved to the middle of the world.) ut probatum est, ergo, terra nullo modo movetur. (Therefore the earth is not in motion in any way)

    After all these commentaries, he concluded that to be stable, the earth must be flat: Necesse est terram, ad hoc quod quiescat, habere figuram latam:( that if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat.) nam figura sphærica facile mobilis est quia in modico tangit superficiem, sed figura lata secundum se totam tangit superficiem, et ideo est apta ad quietem. (For a spherical shape is easy to move, because so little of it is in contact with a plane; but a wide shape is totally in contact with a plane, and is consequently apt for rest and to be firm.)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #176 on: February 06, 2025, 05:46:45 PM »
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  • :popcorn:  St Thomas disagrees with Jaynek?  The plot thickens...

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #177 on: February 06, 2025, 06:04:21 PM »
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  • Thanks, Jayne.  This is the quote.  It says a lot.  St. Thomas is clear, that if the earth is stable, it must be flat.


    Concludit propositum: quod terra sit in medio mundi quia omnia corpora gravia moventur ad medium terræ. (That the earth is in the middle of the universe and all heavy bodies are moved per se to the middle of the earth ) Et sic, ex præmissis, nihil movetur in loco ad quem naturaliter movetur, quia ibi naturaliter quiescit. Sed terra aliquando movetur ad medium mundi, (from the foregoing as follows: Nothing is moved in the place toward which it is naturally moved. But the earth is naturally moved to the middle of the world.) ut probatum est, ergo, terra nullo modo movetur. (Therefore the earth is not in motion in any way)

    After all these commentaries, he concluded that to be stable, the earth must be flat: Necesse est terram, ad hoc quod quiescat, habere figuram latam:( that if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat.) nam figura sphærica facile mobilis est quia in modico tangit superficiem, sed figura lata secundum se totam tangit superficiem, et ideo est apta ad quietem. (For a spherical shape is easy to move, because so little of it is in contact with a plane; but a wide shape is totally in contact with a plane, and is consequently apt for rest and to be firm.)
    I am interested in an english translation of the whole context of this part. Also, I'm interested with an accurate english translation of the whole Summa, if you know of a particular edition for me to look for.

    What you quoted makes sense, but dare I say St Thomas appears to not cover his bases here and so may be in error, unless the context around these quotes prove otherwise.

    Having only read a few of his chapters, or whatever they are called, as posted on CI either in their entirety or close to it, I have found it confusing at times distinguishing his conclusions from opposing arguments. Given that me, a fallible human, can make this simple mistake, perhaps you did too, and quoted a false argument that St Thomas intends to prove wrong.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #178 on: February 06, 2025, 06:22:58 PM »
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  • Thanks, Jayne.  This is the quote.  It says a lot.  St. Thomas is clear, that if the earth is stable, it must be flat.


    Concludit propositum: quod terra sit in medio mundi quia omnia corpora gravia moventur ad medium terræ. (That the earth is in the middle of the universe and all heavy bodies are moved per se to the middle of the earth ) Et sic, ex præmissis, nihil movetur in loco ad quem naturaliter movetur, quia ibi naturaliter quiescit. Sed terra aliquando movetur ad medium mundi, (from the foregoing as follows: Nothing is moved in the place toward which it is naturally moved. But the earth is naturally moved to the middle of the world.) ut probatum est, ergo, terra nullo modo movetur. (Therefore the earth is not in motion in any way)

    After all these commentaries, he concluded that to be stable, the earth must be flat: Necesse est terram, ad hoc quod quiescat, habere figuram latam:( that if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat.) nam figura sphærica facile mobilis est quia in modico tangit superficiem, sed figura lata secundum se totam tangit superficiem, et ideo est apta ad quietem. (For a spherical shape is easy to move, because so little of it is in contact with a plane; but a wide shape is totally in contact with a plane, and is consequently apt for rest and to be firm.)
    No St. Thomas is not clear that the earth is flat.  A nameless (apparently dishonest) author has distorted what St. Thomas was writing.
    This claim - After all these commentaries, he concluded that to be stable, the earth must be flat - is a clear falsehood.  St. Thomas did not conclude this.  He was describing Aristotle describing the false positions of others.  And the author removed the words that made this clear.  The sentence actually starts with the words "He [Aristotle] gives a second argument at [352] and says that they [people with a false position] add a further argument for the same, namely,..."

    The position "that if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat" is the argument of "they" not the conclusion of St. Thomas.  And in the larger context one can see that "they" is referring people who hold false theories about the earth.   

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #179 on: February 06, 2025, 06:26:43 PM »
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  • I am interested in an english translation of the whole context of this part.
    I gave an English translation of the immediate context in post 170.  The is even more context in the thread I linked to when I cited it.

    Given that me, a fallible human, can make this simple mistake, perhaps you did too, and quoted a false argument that St Thomas intends to prove wrong.

    Tradman did indeed quote a false argument that Aristotle later shows to be wrong but it was not a simple mistake.  The author of the article added false comments and removed crucial content that distorted its meaning.  Tradman was deceived.