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Author Topic: Round Earth reference?  (Read 152681 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Round Earth reference?
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2025, 05:11:06 PM »
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  • Even the suggestion that the spherical earth was considered legit because of the Sphere of Sacrobosco and Ptolemaic astronomy is quite damaging to the true faith, since such writings were not well received by the Church.

    "The “Commentary on the Sphere” was specifically condemned to be burned in 1327 at the same time as Cecco. Cecco also composed a long poem in Italian on the nature of the universe, with a focus on astrology and magic, called l’Acerba. This was also condemned by the Inquisition at the time of his execution.
     
    The same Wikipedia article you quote also says: "Sacrobosco's De sphaera mundi was the most successful of several competing thirteenth-century textbooks on this topic. It was used in universities for hundreds of years and the manuscript copied many times before the invention of the printing press; hundreds of manuscript copies have survived. The first printed edition appeared in 1472 in Ferrara and at least 84 editions were printed in the next two hundred years. The work was frequently supplemented with commentaries on the original text. The number of copies and commentaries reflects its importance as a university text."

    As you should know, universities during this time were Catholic institutions that operated under papal charter. Any work that spent hundreds of years as an important and influential university text was, contrary to your claim, very well received by the Church. 

    Cecco was a heretic and, not surpriningly, included heresies in his commentary on De sphaera Mundi. These heresies had nothing to do with the shape of the earth. His rightful condemnation does not indicate any problems with Sacrobosco's work.  Your claim makes as much sense as saying there is something wrong with St. Augustine because Luther wrote about him.  I proved all this the last time you made this incorrect claim about Cecco, yet here you are saying it again.

    There is no evidence that the Church had any problems with anybody teaching (as science) the earth is a globe.  Doctors of the Church, like St. Bede and St. Thomas Aquinas did so.  And it is very clear in context that they were using the Ptolemaic model and not a "snow globe".  You need to find better support for your belief in flat earth than false claims about Catholic history.





    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #76 on: February 05, 2025, 05:25:13 PM »
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  • Without having read the article yet, Wikipedia is of course suspicious. Also "mundi" means world, not earth, right? I think this because of the common translation of "who takest away the sins of the world". It could be argued that world means the whole universe, but I'd have to read his teaching to be sure of what he meant.
    The "mundi" of the title does refer to the universe, so you are right about that.  However, he does include a description of a spherical earth in the first chapter.  Here is an English translation: https://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/sphere.htm


    Quote
    THE EARTH A SPHERE. -- That the earth, too, is round is shown thus. The signs and stars do not rise and set the same for all men everywhere but rise and set sooner for those in the east than for those in the west; and of this there is no other cause than the bulge of the earth. Moreover, celestial phenomena evidence that they rise sooner for Orientals than for westerners. For one and the same eclipse of the moon which appears to us in the first hour of the night appears to Orientals about the third hour of the night, which proves that they had night and sunset before we did, of which setting the bulge of the earth is the cause.

    FURTHER PROOFS OF THIS. -- That the earth also has a bulge from north to south and vice versa is shown thus: To those living toward the north, certain stars are always visible, namely, those near the North Pole, while others which are near the South Pole are always concealed from them. If, then, anyone should proceed from the north southward, he might go so far that the stars which formerly were always visible to him now would tend toward their setting. And the farther south he went, the more they would be moved toward their setting. Again, that same man now could see stars which formerly had always been hidden from him. And the reverse would happen to anyone going from the south northward. The cause of this is simply the bulge of the earth. Again, if the earth were flat from east to west, the stars would rise as soon for westerners as for Orientals. which is false. Also, if the earth were flat from north to south and vice versa, the stars which were always visible to anyone would continue to be so wherever he went, which is false. But it seems flat to human sight because it is so extensive.


    These are standard proofs for the Ptolemaic model.  Whether or not one thinks they are convincing proofs, they establish the influence of the Ptolemaic model in medieval Europe.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #77 on: February 05, 2025, 05:25:39 PM »
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  • So, these heretical teachings were so bad, the Catholic Church actually burned Cecco at the stake for promoting them.

    Once the Church has been restored, Fr. Robinson, St. Giles, JayneK and a few others here would be next in line. :laugh1:


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #78 on: February 05, 2025, 05:29:12 PM »
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  • Quote
    And it is very clear in context that they were using the Ptolemaic model and not a "snow globe".
    Where is the evidence that Ptolemy was against the snow globe theory?  Other than he was an anti-old testament, pagan, pedophile Greek?  You’re just making assumptions. 

    Secondly, where’s the evidence that Ptolemys model REQUIRES a globe earth?  And not a snow globe?  The physics of the universe could work either way.  

    As a former Jew, Jaynek, how can you philosophically reconcile the rejection of a snow globe and your Faith?  

    The globe earth is a) anti-Old Testament and b) a Greek fantasy (much like our modern evolution), which was meant to “Hellenize” the world and this is exactly the reason why God raised up the Maccabee’s to defeat the Greeks.  

    Your support of the Greek globe earth is a rejection of your old Faith (Jєωιѕн) and your new Faith (catholic). A double error.  

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #79 on: February 05, 2025, 05:40:58 PM »
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  • Once the Church has been restored, Fr. Robinson, St. Giles, JayneK and a few others here would be next in line. :laugh1:


    If a valid Pope, said that we as Catholic had to believe the earth was flat, then I would follow?  If a valid Pope, said that the earth was a sphere (not meaning snow globe, meaning ball), would you follow?  Or would you school him on how he misinterpreted something and needed to reconsider?
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #80 on: February 05, 2025, 05:47:04 PM »
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  • If a valid Pope, said that we as Catholic had to believe the earth was flat, then I would follow?  If a valid Pope, said that the earth was a sphere (not meaning snow globe, meaning ball), would you follow?  Or would you school him on how he misinterpreted something and needed to reconsider?

    What do you mean a Pope "said"?  Popes can "say" lots of things.  So, the more you think you're making some kind of point, the more murky you make it.  Obviously if a legitimate Pope dogmatically taught that the earth is round, I would accept that ... but it won't happen, since the rotundity of the earth is not something that was revealed in Sacred Scripture or Tradition, nor can it be inferred therefrom.

    You're the one who needs some schooling and to keep silent per St. Paul.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #81 on: February 05, 2025, 05:49:55 PM »
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  • Where is the evidence that Ptolemy was against the snow globe theory? 
    If one reads how he described the earth in the the Almagest it clearly is not compatible with a snow globe.  But he is not against the snow globe model, he just doesn't say anything about it.  He is building on the work of Aristotle and other Greek astronomers.  It is a model in which the earth is a globe with people living on its surface.

    It is fine to disagree with him, but silly to pretend he didn't use that model.  Just look at any translation or summary. 

    By the way, Pope Nicholas V commissioned a Latin translation of this work, yet further proof the Church did not have any problem with this model.

    As a former Jew, Jaynek, how can you philosophically reconcile the rejection of a snow globe and your Faith? 

    The globe earth is a) anti-Old Testament and b) a Greek fantasy (much like our modern evolution), which was meant to “Hellenize” the world and this is exactly the reason why God raised up the Maccabee’s to defeat the Greeks. 

    Your support of the Greek globe earth is a rejection of your old Faith (Jєωιѕн) and your new Faith (catholic). A double error. 

    St. Augustine and St. Basil both taught that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth.  This teaching was accepted by Catholics and the norm within Christendom became to treat this as a matter for science.  This is why St. Thomas Aquinas had no problem with saying that Aristotle's  claim that the earth is a globe is true.  This was the way Catholics understood the shape of the earth for well over a thousand years.  I take the same position as my Catholic ancestors in the Faith and could not care less what ancient Babylonian Jews thought.  Of course, I reject Judaism.  There is something seriously wrong with your grasp of reality if you consider that an error.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #82 on: February 05, 2025, 06:10:36 PM »
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  • What do you mean a Pope "said"?  Popes can "say" lots of things.  So, the more you think you're making some kind of point, the more murky you make it.  Obviously if a legitimate Pope dogmatically taught that the earth is round, I would accept that ... but it won't happen, since the rotundity of the earth is not something that was revealed in Sacred Scripture or Tradition, nor can it be inferred therefrom.

    You're the one who needs some schooling and to keep silent per St. Paul.
    Lighten up.  :jester:  You were the one who implied "burning people at the stake".
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #83 on: February 05, 2025, 06:11:24 PM »
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  •  
    The same Wikipedia article you quote also says: "Sacrobosco's De sphaera mundi was the most successful of several competing thirteenth-century textbooks on this topic. It was used in universities for hundreds of years and the manuscript copied many times before the invention of the printing press; hundreds of manuscript copies have survived. The first printed edition appeared in 1472 in Ferrara and at least 84 editions were printed in the next two hundred years. The work was frequently supplemented with commentaries on the original text. The number of copies and commentaries reflects its importance as a university text."

    As you should know, universities during this time were Catholic institutions that operated under papal charter. Any work that spent hundreds of years as an important and influential university text was, contrary to your claim, very well received by the Church. 

    Cecco was a heretic and, not surpriningly, included heresies in his commentary on De sphaera Mundi. These heresies had nothing to do with the shape of the earth. His rightful condemnation does not indicate any problems with Sacrobosco's work.  Your claim makes as much sense as saying there is something wrong with St. Augustine because Luther wrote about him.  I proved all this the last time you made this incorrect claim about Cecco, yet here you are saying it again.

    There is no evidence that the Church had any problems with anybody teaching (as science) the earth is a globe.  Doctors of the Church, like St. Bede and St. Thomas Aquinas did so.  And it is very clear in context that they were using the Ptolemaic model and not a "snow globe".  You need to find better support for your belief in flat earth than false claims about Catholic history.

    Are you suggesting Sacrobosco's globe theory mattered just because it was popular? If not, why post such drivel? No one cares for science falsely so-called just because it is popular with the people getting brainwashed.  Especially when we have the Catholic Church condemnation of the theories that relieve anyone taken in by said lies.  

    As for the shape of the earth, all such theories were condemned by the Catholic Church when they burned Cecco at the stake, to include the writings about the globe. You will have to prove the Church's official condemnation, that included the death of a man promoting the globe, did not include the globe.  

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #84 on: February 05, 2025, 06:13:37 PM »
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  • The "mundi" of the title does refer to the universe, so you are right about that.  However, he does include a description of a spherical earth in the first chapter.  Here is an English translation: https://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/sphere.htm



    These are standard proofs for the Ptolemaic model.  Whether or not one thinks they are convincing proofs, they establish the influence of the Ptolemaic model in medieval Europe.
    Since the geocentric Ptolemaic astronomy was the basis of traditional astrology, the Sphere of Sacrobosco was a key introductory text for astrologers covering the basics of the celestial circles, poles, meridian, ecliptic, the Zodiac and its signs and the movement of the planets." --Wikipedia

    In case you're inclined to argue, this means that Ptolemaic astronomy was not acceptable to the Church because the root of globe theory was pagan astrology.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #85 on: February 05, 2025, 06:34:20 PM »
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  • As for the shape of the earth, all such theories were condemned by the Catholic Church when they burned Cecco at the stake, to include the writings about the globe. You will have to prove the Church's official condemnation, that included the death of a man promoting the globe, did not include the globe. 


    Cecco was writing in Latin.  You have to prove that his official condemnation does not include a condemnation of using Latin.

    (I actually did show exactly what Cecco was condemned for last time Tradman made her absurd claim.  There is no point repeating it if it just gets ignored.)

    There is no Church condemnation of believing the earth is a globe.  I would have a lot more respect for the flat earthers here if they stopped allowing this falsehood.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #86 on: February 05, 2025, 06:40:25 PM »
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  • Since the geocentric Ptolemaic astronomy was the basis of traditional astrology, the Sphere of Sacrobosco was a key introductory text for astrologers covering the basics of the celestial circles, poles, meridian, ecliptic, the Zodiac and its signs and the movement of the planets." --Wikipedia

    In case you're inclined to argue, this means that Ptolemaic astronomy was not acceptable to the Church because the root of globe theory was pagan astrology.

    It does not mean that.  This quote says that astrologers  based their understanding of astronomy on Ptolemy, not that Ptolemy based his ideas on astrology.  You have it backwards.

    How do you explain Pope Nicholas V commissioning a translation of Ptolemy's work if it was so unacceptable to the Church?

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #87 on: February 05, 2025, 06:41:06 PM »
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  • Cecco was writing in Latin.  You have to prove that his official condemnation does not include a condemnation of using Latin.

    (I actually did show exactly what Cecco was condemned for last time Tradman made her absurd claim.  There is no point repeating it if it just gets ignored.)

    There is no Church condemnation of believing the earth is a globe.  I would have a lot more respect for the flat earthers here if they stopped allowing this falsehood.
    Cecco was burned at the stake for his scientific theories that included the globe. Do you believe the Church was at fault for burning a man at the stake for his scientific spherical moving earth theory?    

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #88 on: February 05, 2025, 06:53:36 PM »
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  • It does not mean that.  This quote says that astrologers  based their understanding of astronomy on Ptolemy, not that Ptolemy based his ideas on astrology.  You have it backwards.

    How do you explain Pope Nicholas V commissioning a translation of Ptolemy's work if it was so unacceptable to the Church?
    You are right. Several good Catholic saints and Fathers of the Church patiently considered the globe theory for the sake of science and truth. Ultimately, (after study or over time) the saints and Fathers found the globe contrary to Scripture because it was not represented in the words, but based in idolatry.  You say, "it does not mean that."  Are you sure?  We know that the geocentric flat earth cosmology fits perfectly with Scripture when the pagan globe theory only promotes globe-birthing idols like Gaia and Pachamama. 



     





    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #89 on: February 05, 2025, 06:55:50 PM »
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  • Cecco was burned at the stake for his scientific theories that included the globe.

    No he was not.  The Wikipedia article you cite itself says he was condemned for "theories concerning the employment and agency of demons".  

    Do you believe the Church was at fault for burning a man at the stake for his scientific spherical moving earth theory?  
      
    At the time Cecco wrote, virtually everyone believed in a stationary spherical earth,  including Cecco and Sacrobosco.  You are so confused.

    The Church burned Cecco at the stake for what he wrote about demons and I have no reason to believe they were wrong to do so.