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Author Topic: Round Earth reference?  (Read 152393 times)

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Online Gray2023

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Re: Round Earth reference?
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2025, 10:11:07 AM »
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  • Jaynek has been corrected/challenged so many times i've lost count.  She ignores all challenges to her facts, disappears for a few months, then resurfaces to re-post the same faulty facts.  It is safe to conclude from her actions that she has an agenda and is not interested in the search for truth.  Thus, she is intellectually dishonest. 
    Wow,  this is exactly what I am talking about.  I wish I could put into words why this statement bothers me so much.  It is the type of statement that renders the other party in the discussion no way of saying anything.  Many people do this a lot on this forum.  It is like a door slam to the conversation.

    This is why I do not think the Flat earth people want to truly have a discussion.
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #46 on: January 27, 2025, 10:40:22 AM »
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    It is the type of statement that renders the other party in the discussion no way of saying anything.
    No, Gray, a person like Jaynek has EVERY OPPORTUNITY to continue the discussion, but she always disappears.  She ignores challenges, disappears, then re-appears and acts like the previous challenges never happened.

    A person like Jaynek operates contrary to the scientific method, i.e. facts are challenged, debated, altered, challenged, debated, etc --- until a consensus is reached where something is either proven or disproven.

    If a person like Jaynek either a) ignores all challenges, and b) refuses to continue a debate, then she's not being scientific.  She has an agenda.  This is anti-science.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #47 on: January 27, 2025, 11:01:31 AM »
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  • Contrary to the allegation, I am in fact open to any conclusions regarding the shape of the earth that do not blatantly contradict Sacred Scripture.  I could ALMOST accept Dr. Sungenis' latest attempt as consistent with Scripture, except that I don't believe his assertion that the firmament changed after the 4th day stands up to scrutiny.  He agrees that firmament (and the source Hebrew) clearly indicate something solid, but then believes that on the 4th day it got stretched out into what is now space.  Where IMO it fails is where Sacred Scripture describes the firmament vis-a-vis the Great Deluge, long after the 4th day of creation, and the Church Fathers clearly believed that it remained as described early in Genesis to their very day.  But with some refinement, I could accept his theory as not iherently inconsistent with Sacred Scripture.

    So apart from the rule of compatibility with Sacred Scripture, from a scientific standpoint I am open to accepting any hypothesis that works.  With regard to the critical "see too far" problem for globe earth, I am open to PLAUSIBLE explanations for the phenomenon.  If someone wanted to argue that the earth is a globe, just, oh, 15 times larger than what we're told, I'd be open to looking at any evidence for it.  If someone wanted to argue that the flow of ether cause light to bend consistently around the globe of the earth, I'm open to that.  Or some other force that could plausibly account for those observations.  But refraction is absurd and can't come close to explaining it, for reasons I won't go into now, since that's not my point ... my point being that I'm open to plausible/reasonable explanations for various phenomena that currently falsify the globe.

    As mentioned, also, very few of us FEs grew up that way.  It too me close to 2 years personally to come around to it.  Some prominent FEs actually started looking into it with the intent of just debunking it, believing it to be a psy-op to discredit the people who believed the moon landing was faked ... and then were not only unable to debunk it but were convinced by the evidence.  Nor did all FEs come in with a preconception that the Bible shows a flat earth, and a couple were in fact atheists or agnostics at best, but then later came to believe in God and an Intelligent Designer AFTER they became convinced of FE.

    I also find the explanation for why the atmosphere does not just blow off out into the nearly-infinite-vacuum of space to be utterly preposterous.  There's no way the atmosphere could stay "attached to" and adjacent to the earth, per the current "explanation", as the force of gravity simply doesn't suffice.  But there too, if someone could come up with a plausible explanation for it, I'm open to it.  Maybe, again, it's some flow of either, where space isn't a complete vacuum, etc. ... and perhaps Dr. Sungenis can help articulate a hypothesis, since he does believe in there being a "Plack Fabric" and not true empty space.  But the currently-prevailing explanation ... "gravity" ... is nonsense.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #48 on: January 27, 2025, 11:20:08 AM »
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  • Search under "confirmation bias" under your name then, but you're right about "congitive dissonace" and I was wrong...
    Searching under "confirmation bias" under my name gives a total of three results, the two I already mentioned plus one more.  This is not something I constantly talk about under any term.  


    Jaynek has been corrected/challenged so many times i've lost count.  She ignores all challenges to her facts, disappears for a few months, then resurfaces to re-post the same faulty facts.  

    I drop out of threads that degenerate into personal attacks and insults.  I often take a complete break from the forum in order to resist the temptation to respond in kind.  The facts remain the same and I post them from time to time as they are relevant, especially if the discussion involves new members who might not have seen them before.  

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #49 on: January 27, 2025, 11:21:31 AM »
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  • I could ALMOST accept Dr. Sungenis' latest attempt as consistent with Scripture, except that I don't believe his assertion that the firmament changed after the 4th day stands up to scrutiny.  He agrees that firmament (and the source Hebrew) clearly indicate something solid, but then believes that on the 4th day it got stretched out into what is now space.  Where IMO it fails is where Sacred Scripture describes the firmament vis-a-vis the Great Deluge, long after the 4th day of creation, and the Church Fathers clearly believed that it remained as described early in Genesis to their very day.

    I'm still curious about why Kolbe appears to have stalled out on the series where Dr. Sungenis articulated this theory.  I bought Day One and Day Two (of "How God made the world in six days."), with Days Three through Six saying "Coming Soon".  This was over a year ago now, and still no Days 3 - 6.  I wrote them an e-mail the other day asking what happened, but have not received a response.  I wonder if he (and they) took so much heat over this particular theory, which involves at the beginning a gigantic ice ball with earth frozen in the middle (until gradually being thawed by the Light from Day One of creation).  I'm guessing it was not well received and they took a lot of heat for it.  But I also wonder if people didn't convincingly argue with them that there's no indication of this change in the firmament on Day Four of Creation, and actually a good amount of evidence against it.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #50 on: January 27, 2025, 11:29:14 AM »
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  • If a person like Jaynek either a) ignores all challenges, and b) refuses to continue a debate, then she's not being scientific.  She has an agenda.  This is anti-science.
    I make a point of avoiding the science aspects of this question.  I am not knowledgeable in that field and do not find it interesting.  The vast majority of my posts concern matters of history and theology that would apply whatever the actual shape of the earth is.

    For the record, I believe that people are free to challenge to consensus of science, especially when new evidence becomes available.  Science is not capable of determining unquestionable or eternal truths.  For that we turn to Revelation under the guidance of the Church.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #51 on: January 27, 2025, 11:51:36 AM »
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  • .
    So what exactly did I "misunderstand" from the vague argument?  I had to infer her argument that she believes that references to a globe represantation of the world are intrinsically incompatible with Flat Earth.  I (and Pax) refuted it by pointing out that the FE / Biblical cosmology does in fact hold that the "world" is a globe and that there's nothing incompatible about it that would render Our Lady a "liar" if the surface of the earth we walk on were flat.

    As I understand that argument,  the apparition in which Our Lady represented the world by a globe occurred in 1830, a time at which virtually all Catholics believed the earth to be a globe in the modern sense.  The use of such imagery would have reinforced this belief.  If this belief were a lie, it seems unlikely that our Lady would encourage it. 

    The "snow globe" cosmology is not relevant to this argument.  The vast majority of people in 1830 (and now) do not think of it when they hear someone refer to the world as a globe.  Our Lady is not someone who would say things that were technically true but would lead people to believe a falsehood. 

    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #52 on: January 27, 2025, 12:33:27 PM »
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  • No, Gray, a person like Jaynek has EVERY OPPORTUNITY to continue the discussion, but she always disappears.  She ignores challenges, disappears, then re-appears and acts like the previous challenges never happened.

    A person like Jaynek operates contrary to the scientific method, i.e. facts are challenged, debated, altered, challenged, debated, etc --- until a consensus is reached where something is either proven or disproven.

    If a person like Jaynek either a) ignores all challenges, and b) refuses to continue a debate, then she's not being scientific.  She has an agenda.  This is anti-science.
    Why do you do this?  Below is her explanation.  Do accept her words or are you going to just keep sticking to your own assumptions.

    I drop out of threads that degenerate into personal attacks and insults.  I often take a complete break from the forum in order to resist the temptation to respond in kind.  The facts remain the same and I post them from time to time as they are relevant, especially if the discussion involves new members who might not have seen them before. 
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #53 on: January 27, 2025, 12:53:34 PM »
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    Why do you do this?  Below is her explanation.  Do accept her words or are you going to just keep sticking to your own assumptions.
    :laugh2:  My post was before hers. 

    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #54 on: January 27, 2025, 01:18:49 PM »
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  • :laugh2:  My post was before hers.
    This is not the first time you have done this to her.  If you know you have a habit of misunderstanding her posts, then wouldn't the charitable thing to do be refraining from jumping to rash conclusions?
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #55 on: January 27, 2025, 01:38:55 PM »
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    :laugh2: title=laugh2  My post was before hers.
    I posted BEFORE SHE POSTED

    Quote
    Below is her explanation.
    Her explanation was AFTER I posted. 

    Quote
    If you know you have a habit of misunderstanding her posts,
    It's impossible to misunderstand her post, IF SHE HADN'T POSTED IT YET.  I cannot predict the future.


    Before you criticize someone, you should get your facts straight.


    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #56 on: January 27, 2025, 01:43:43 PM »
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  • Contrary to the allegation, I am in fact open to any conclusions regarding the shape of the earth that do not blatantly contradict Sacred Scripture.  I could ALMOST accept Dr. Sungenis' latest attempt as consistent with Scripture, except that I don't believe his assertion that the firmament changed after the 4th day stands up to scrutiny.  He agrees that firmament (and the source Hebrew) clearly indicate something solid, but then believes that on the 4th day it got stretched out into what is now space.  Where IMO it fails is where Sacred Scripture describes the firmament vis-a-vis the Great Deluge, long after the 4th day of creation, and the Church Fathers clearly believed that it remained as described early in Genesis to their very day.  But with some refinement, I could accept his theory as not iherently inconsistent with Sacred Scripture.
    I understand your perspective, and appreciate this delivery much better.  I don't understand the bolded part, so I am going to have to do some research.  Which I must admit is not at the top of my list of duties. 

    This quote from Pax below, do you agree with it?  I still do not understand, if the earth has to have 4 corners then any model anyone has come up with, fails in this regard.


    Quote

    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #149 on: December 06, 2024, 05:16:55 PM »

    Ok, so I go back to my original 4 facts, which are in the Bible and which we must believe.  None of the below are 'figurative'.

    1.  Firmament
    2.  4 corners of earth
    3.  Earth's foundation/pillars
    4.  Earth doesn't move.


    The above does not mean the earth is flat.  The above does not mean the Church has told us the shape of the earth.  What is DOES MEAN is that any theory we come up with, must align with the above, 4 facts.  Or the theory is wrong.

    These 4 facts are "guardrails" or "baseline" data that any discussion of the earth's shape or cosmos MUST include.

    I'm not saying the earth is flat, but an FE model includes the above 4 facts.  So that's a start.
    I'm not saying the earth isn't a globe, but i've yet to see a "modern" globe model which includes the above 4 facts.  That's a fail.

    That's the point.


    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #57 on: January 27, 2025, 01:50:14 PM »
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    As I understand that argument,  the apparition in which Our Lady represented the world by a globe 
    Correct, the world is a globe.

    Quote
    occurred in 1830, a time at which virtually all Catholics believed the earth to be a globe in the modern sense. 
    1.  You don't know what "all catholics believed"
    2.  It's irrelevant on "how" people understood the globe, i.e. heliocentric globe vs geocentric globe vs geocentric FE globe.
    3.  All that matters is, the earth is a globe.


    Quote
    The use of such imagery would have reinforced this belief.
    False. 


    Quote
    If this belief were a lie, it seems unlikely that our Lady would encourage it. 
    Our Lady showed a globe; she wasn't encouraging any details surrounding it....because the message wasn't about science.

    Quote
    The "snow globe" cosmology is not relevant to this argument. 
    It certainly is, because such a cosmology shows the earth is a globe.

    Quote
    The vast majority of people in 1830 (and now) do not think of it when they hear someone refer to the world as a globe. 
    :laugh1:  The vast majority of people (even catholics) go to hell and they don't put into practice what Our Lady says.

    God speaks based on the Truth; not based on "consensus" or "popular opinion".

    Quote
    Our Lady is not someone who would say things that were technically true but would lead people to believe a falsehood. 
    The earth is a globe.  This is not a technicality, but a truth of nature, which has been believed since Adam/Eve, which the 'snow globe' cosmology proves.

    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #58 on: January 27, 2025, 02:03:28 PM »
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  • I posted BEFORE SHE POSTED
    Her explanation was AFTER I posted. 
    It's impossible to misunderstand her post, IF SHE HADN'T POSTED IT YET.  I cannot predict the future.


    Before you criticize someone, you should get your facts straight.
    :facepalm: Yes.  I repeat.  I am criticizing your "a person like JayneK" statement.  It is rude and ends all conversation.  Stop getting lost in the weeds.

    Did you miss this comment?


    This is not the first time you have done this to her.  If you know you have a habit of misunderstanding her posts, then wouldn't the charitable thing to do be refraining from jumping to rash conclusions?
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Round Earth reference?
    « Reply #59 on: January 27, 2025, 02:30:26 PM »
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    I am criticizing your "a person like JayneK" statement.  It is rude and ends all conversation.
    Gray, you're relatively new to this site.  I've been on here for many, many years.  Stop being critical about things/history you're unaware of.