Author Topic: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba  (Read 1442 times)

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Offline klasG4e

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Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
« on: November 11, 2018, 08:00:41 PM »
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  • The debate will be in Denver on November 15h.

    See "Recent News" at https://www.theprinciplemovie.com/


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    Debate On Flat Earth With Robert Sungenis & Rob Skiba
    November 3, 2018
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    Tags: Debate, FEIC 2018, flat earth, FLAT EARTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE, Rob Skiba, Robert Sungenis

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    Hey, Principle fans!
    We want to inform you of a very interesting event that will occur on November 15, 2018.
    Robert Sungenis, creator, executive producer and actor in The Principle movie, and now author of the new book, Flat Earth/Flat Wrong, will be having a public and formal debate against Rob Skiba, one of the most popular flat-earthers in the country.
    The debate will take place at 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm at the Crown Plaza Airport Convention Center hotel in Denver, Colorado. You can still make reservations at the hotel if you want to come.
    The debate is part of the International Flat Earth conference that will take place November 15 and 16. See www.fe2018.com for more details.
    Speakers include most of the heavyweights of the flat earth movement, such as: Patricia Steere (who  appeared on CBS’s morning show October 14 defending the flat earth);Mark Sargent (the Enclosed World); Bob Knodel (Globebusters); Jeran Campanella (Jeranism); Robbie Davidson (Celebrate Truth); Zen Garcia (Sacred Word Publishing),
    …and nineteen other speakers.
    As most of you know, The Principle debuted October 2014 in Chicago at Regal movie theaters. A few months prior, the mєdια got wind of The Principle and it became the third highest topic of discussion on the Internet, and was covered by over 150 new outlets around the world. By the time The Principle came to Los Angeles theaters, it became the fourth highest “per screen average” nationwide for that weekend, with American Sniper grabbing the top spot.
    But a funny thing happened on the way to Chicago. Just a couple of months later the Flat-Earth movement took off in popularity like it had never seen before. Almost overnight the whole world was talking about whether the Earth was flat or round. Was that just a coincidence? The flat-earthers say no. They freely admit they were riding the coattails of The Principle. Why? Because they figured that since both of us believed the Earth is at the center of the universe and that modern science and the press have done their best to keep this knowledge from us, we had a lot in common. Perhaps we do. But as Clint Eastwood once told us in Dirty Harry, every man has his limitations!
    So, Rob Skiba and Robert Sungenis will go at it to see what, if any, resolution can be made of these two popular movements. Robert is hoping his arguments don’t fall on flat ears 
    Questions will be invited from the audience, so come join us and offer your two cents!


    as well as

    http://fe2018.com/speakers/dr-robert-sungenis/#


    Dr. Robert Sungenis


    Robert is an international author, lecturer, debater, producer, and founder of Catholic Apologetics International Publishing, Inc., a non-profit corporation dedicated to teaching and defending the Catholic faith.  He holds advanced degrees in Theology and Religious Studies, from George Washington University; Westminster Theological Seminary; and Calamus International University. He is also the chairman of Stellar Motion Pictures, LLC in West Hollywood, California, which produces movies for scientific and religious audiences. He is the executive producer of the movie, The Principle, which appeared in AMC and Regal Cinemas in October 2014. Robert is also the executive producer, writer, and director of the movie, Journey to the Center of the Universe, which was released on DVD in September 2015. Robert is presently working on a third movie, The Church versus Galileo: An Historical Documentary which will be released in late 2016. Most recently he has written the book “Flat Earth Flat Wrong” and will be defending his stance debating with Rob Skiba at the 2018 Flat Earth International Conference.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #1 on: November 12, 2018, 11:42:31 AM »
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  • http://fe2018.com/sessions/flat-earth-debate/

    Flat Earth Debate (Skiba vs. Sungenis)
    Main Stage November 15, 2018, 7:00 pm-9:00 pm
    Rob Skiba
    Testing The Globe
    Dr. Robert Sungenis

    The topic: Defending your cosmological worldview from the Bible: What do the Scriptures have to say about the Earth and its place in the cosmos?
    Key things to address in the debate:
    * Circle or sphere
    * Nature of the Firmament
    * Heliocentric or geocentric cosmology
    Format: A 2-hour debate (with a little fudge-factor for moderation, it would likely come in at about 2 hours 15 minutes total)
    * The moderator will introduce each speaker, then reiterate the focus of the debate is to discuss what the Scriptures have to say about the shape and nature of the Earth and its place in the cosmos. This way the audience knows what to expect and the rules are set for the speakers before we begin.
    * The moderator will flip a coin to determine who goes first.
    Each speaker gets a half-hour to present opening arguments from the Scriptures concerning the topic(s) listed above.
    * After opening statements, each speaker will get 15 minutes for a rebuttal.
    * After rebuttals, each speaker will get 15 minutes for concluding remarks and that brings the debate to an end.
    As a statement of good faith, I suggested we (the flat Earth community) pay his way. Hence this crowdfunding effort. We’ll be paying for his airfare, car rental, and lodging and Robbie will be comping his admission to the conference as a speaker. So, would you be willing to help us make this happen?
    GoFundMe to help bring Dr. Robert Sungenis to FE2018 USA.
    https://www.gofundme.com/flatearthdebate2018
    Let’s do this.
    Sincerely,
    – Rob Skiba


    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #2 on: November 12, 2018, 11:44:01 AM »
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  • https://www.gofundme.com/flatearthdebate2018


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    Bring Dr. Robert Sungenis to FE2018
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    Hey guys! Rob Skiba here.
    As many of you may know, back in June, Dr. Robert Sungenis challenged me to a debate concerning Flat Earth. He did so through Dr. Kent Hovind's office. Initially, I had no interest in debating anyone. But not long after receiving Robert's challenge, Kent also issued a challenge for a debate. It was at that time that I thought perhaps I should at least consider taking on one of them. But not having the time to prepare for two debates, I issued a counter-challenge, in which I said I would debate only on the condition that Dr. Hovind agreed to debate Dr. Sungenis first, on the topic of heliocentricity vs geocentricity in the Bible. I would then take the winner. 

    For those who missed it, the following screenshot was from my YouTube video posted July 20, 2018 -  

    [img width=100%]https://d2g8igdw686xgo.cloudfront.net/33235278_1537835130133124_r.jpeg[/img]

    I even extended the deadline a few days, but Kent refused to debate Robert and was unwilling to modify any of his demands (such as putting the Bible first as I wanted instead of last like he wanted). So, as stated in my video, Dr. Sungenis "won" by default and as such he would be the one I will be debating. The following represents the proposed format for the debate:

    The topic: Defending your cosmological worldview from the Bible: What do the Scriptures have to say about the Earth and its place in the cosmos? 

    Key things to address in the debate:

    * Circle or sphere
    * Nature of the Firmament
    * Heliocentric or geocentric cosmology
    Format: A 2-hour debate (with a little fudge-factor for moderation, it would likely come in at about 2 hours 15 minutes total)

    * The moderator will introduce each speaker, then reiterate the focus of the debate is to discuss what the Scriptures have to say about the shape and nature of the Earth and its place in the cosmos. This way the audience knows what to expect and the rules are set for the speakers before we begin.

    * The moderator will flip a coin to determine who goes first.
    Each speaker gets a half-hour to present opening arguments from the Scriptures concerning the topic(s) listed above. 

    * After opening statements, each speaker will get 15 minutes for a rebuttal.

    * After rebuttals, each speaker will get 15 minutes for concluding remarks and that brings the debate to an end.

    After discussing all of this with Robbie Davidson, we thought it might be fun to have the debate live at the International Flat Earth Conference in Denver . We ran the idea by Dr. Sungenis and he agreed to the proposal.
    As a statement of good faith, I suggested we (the flat Earth community) pay his way. Hence this crowdfunding effort. We'll be paying for his airfare, car rental, and lodging and Robbie will be comping his admission to the conference as a speaker. So, would you be willing to help us make this happen?

    Let's do this.

    Sincerely,

    - Rob Skiba

    For tickets and information regarding the Flat Earth International Conference 2018 please go to http://FE2018.com 
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #3 on: November 13, 2018, 08:25:47 AM »
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  • Skiba, the Protestant, accepts Genesis as literal truth, while Sungenis, the Catholic, denies it.


    Ironic. 

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #4 on: November 15, 2018, 01:50:14 PM »
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  • Skiba, the Protestant, accepts Genesis as literal truth, while Sungenis, the Catholic, denies it.


    Ironic.

    Smed, I hope you could get your hands on Sungenis' Flat Earth / Flat Wrong.  It's really worth the price!   It might just change your mind on some stuff!

    BTW, will you be listening to the debate tonight?  I inquired of the people putting on the Conference to see if it would be for sale as a DVD or CD.  I was sad to hear them answer in the negative.  Hope they reverse their decision!  I would at least like to get a transcript of the debate.


    Offline Markus

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #5 on: November 15, 2018, 06:11:04 PM »
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  • Will there be a video of the debate?

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #6 on: November 18, 2018, 09:18:02 PM »
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 02:09:17 AM »
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  • .
    Here is a third party independent review of the debate:
    .
    http://flatearthdeception.com/review-of-the-fe2018-robert-sungenis-and-rob-skiba-debate/
    .
    Review Of The FE2018 Robert Sungenis And Rob Skiba Debate
    by DAVID on NOVEMBER 16, 2018
    This website exposes the flat earth deception and proves that the earth is globe shaped.
    Last night (11/15/18) I watched the FE2018 Flat Earth Conference debate between Robert Sungenis and Rob Skiba.
    I don’t agree with Rob Skiba’s flat earth theory explanations, but I don’t agree with all of the explanations from Robert Sungenis geocentric globe earth explanations either.
    I’m not going to review their whole debate, because it was a two-hour discussion, but I’ll point out the major things that I disagree with.
    If Robert Sungenis understood these things, then he would have totally prevailed in the debate.
    Quote
    Like Robert, I believe that the evil ones are hiding something, and that there is a grand cօռspιʀαcʏ, to hide that the globe earth is geocentric; which proves a creator.
    Rob Skiba said that the word ‘firmament‘ was key to his conversation in becoming a flat earther, as he thinks that it points to a hard-glass dome, which could only cover a flat earth.
    Firmament is Strong’s Hebrew word 7554 raqiya, meaning an expanse.
    But that doesn’t give flat earthers the meaning that they want, so they cite the word that it’s based on, Hebrew 7554 raqa, to hammer thin sheets of metal to spread/stretch them out.  The idea being conveyed here is that in those days people would hammer metals, to flatten them out, and then polish them, to make it give a reflection, like a mirror.
    Quote
    Does the expanse of heaven not like a looking glass, clear and shining?  Yes!
    If the Hebrews meant to define firmament as raqa, they would have used that word; but they didn’t, they used raqiya, meaning an expanse.
    There was much debate about the use of the Hebrew letters bet and mem; and whether the birds, stars and sun are ‘in’ or ‘inside’ the firmament.
    If the firmament is a solid dome, the birds, stars and sun, can’t be in the solid dome itself.  They can be inside of the dome, or below the dome, but that’s not the Hebrew word that was used.
    There are Hebrew words for ‘in‘, ‘inside‘ and ‘below‘; but Genesis 1 only uses ‘in’.
    Quote
    So it’s not saying that the birds, sun, moon and stars, are inside or below a dome; it’s saying that the birds, sun, moon and stars, are literally in the expanse of heaven.
    I think that Robert Sungenis won this point.
    Rob Skiba focused on the word ‘circle,’ proclaiming that it points to a flat disc earth.
    Robert Sungenis made the point that a flat disc is 3D, as it has depth; so it’s not a circle, which is 2D.
    Robert could have destroyed Rob’s claim, by pointing out that the ‘circle’ of Isaiah 40:22 is not about the shape of the earth; but rather about the circle of the ecliptic, on which Elohim sits.  Isaiah didn’t use the word ball, as he was not describing a ball.
    Quote
    It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
    The ‘he’ is our Creator. He is not sitting upon a circular flat earth. He is sitting in the heavens, where the circle of the ecliptic displays the narrative of redemption, the Gospel, through the 12 constellations.  Satan has perverted the narrative, to hide the true meaning of the constellations.
    Quote
    The word for ‘tent‘ can be rendered as ‘tabernacle‘; so it’s saying that our Creator is sitting in the tabernacle of the stars which He created.
    Let’s back up to get the context of the verse. Elohim is declaring the glory of His creation.
    Quote
    And to whom would you liken Ěl? And what likeness would you compare to Him? The workman moulds a graven image, and the goldsmith overspreads it with gold, and the silversmith casts silver chains. Isaiah 40:18-19
    He’s declaring that the works of man are nothing as compared to His creativity and power. Then He points out His mazzaroth, the twelve signs in the circle of the mazzaroth, which have proclaimed His plan of redemption from the beginning.
    Quote
    Did you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? Isaiah 40:21
    Quote
    Do you bind the bands of Kimah (Pleiades), or loosen the cords of Kesil (Orion)? Do you bring out the constellations (mazzaroth) in its season? Or do you lead the Bear (Arcturus) with its sons?  Job 38:31-32
    The CIRCLE in Isaiah 40:22 is the mazzaroth in the sky above, that has 12 constellations in a circle on the ecliptic, which declare the Gospel. It is like a curtain which covers the earth, and in which the stars dwell.  It’s a tabernacle (tent) in which the Father dwells.
    .
    .
    REPLY FROM ROBERT SUNGENIS
    .
    Robert Sungenis November 17, 2018 at 3:28 pm
    Dear David,
    Thank you for writing and sharing your thoughts about the debate. I have read most of your website on this issue and I quote you in my book, Flat Earth/Flat Wrong. Thank you for you untiring efforts to help the flat-earthers out of their dilemma.
    .
    Regarding the arguments in my debate that you believe my efforts could have been stronger, namely, Is 40:22 and Rev 6:13, I will have to disagree with your approach to these passages, although I understand and appreciate your viewpoint.
    .
    Regarding Is 40:22, this is my one paragraph comment in my book on your theory.
    .
    “Although this author’s purpose is to discredit the flat Earth theory, this is the wrong way to go about it since it conflates references to the constellations, which are in a circle, with the Earth which is a circle. Is 40:21, which introduces the context of Is 40:22, makes a specific reference to the Earth as the focus of the passage (“Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?”). Is 40:22 then follows immєdιαtely with, “It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers.” Moreover, Isaiah’s reference in verse 22 to the “heavens” immєdιαtely after (“who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in”) is not talking about the twelve constellations of Mazzoroth, but the whole heavens that includes all the stars which, in its hemispherical or spherical shape, is like a circular tent covering. Hence Mazzoroth is not even part of the discussion in Isaiah 40:21-22.”
    .
    So, basically what I am saying here is that by introducing Mazzoroth into the interpretation you are bringing in a foreign element into the discussion that the Isaiah text does not include or appeal to in any way. I believe exegesis has to stick with the context as the primary source.
    .
    Regarding Rev 6:13, in order to claim that the falling stars of the passage are speaking about the fall of the Roman leaders, you would first have to prove that the overall text of Rev 6 is pointing to the historical situation of Rome in the first century, which is the preterist viewpoint of the whole of Revelation. That is rather hard to do considering Rev 4-6 is a highly symbolic text. I’m not saying your view is necessarily wrong, but only that your view begs the question as to how Revelation should be interpreted as a whole.

    .
    My view is that Revelation is divided into seven sections that all point to the time between the First Coming of Christ to the Second Coming, and each section tells the same story about what happens between those two times but from seven different symbolic vantage points. The sections are Chapters: 1-3; 4-6; 7-9; 10-11; 12-14; 15-19; 20-22.
    .
    So, for example, in Chapters 4-6, chapter 6 is speaking about the end of the world when Christ returns. Likewise in Chapters 12-14, chapter 14 is speaking about the end of the world when Christ returns, and thus, so are chapters 19, 22 and 9, and you notice that each of these chapters (9, 11, 14, 19, 22) although they speak of the same time (the return of Christ and the end of the world), each speaks from a different vantage point and with different symbolic language.
    .
    Rev 6 is the only one of the seven sections that speaks of the stars falling because it is concentrating on the collapse of the universe at the end of time. If we compare this language to other parts of Scripture (e.g., Mt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-26; Lk 21:25-27; Is 13:10; Joel 2:10; 3:15-16; 34, et. al.) we notice that each of these contexts is speaking about the end of the world and the return of Christ. So it seems without question that Rev 6:13 is speaking about the end of the world.
    .
    I think this is further illustrated when we see that other contexts that exclude the stars and only mention that darkening of the sun and moon, it is apparent that the text is speaking only of Christ’s first coming (cf. Joel 2:31-32; Ac 2:20-21; Mt 27:45-46; Mk 15:33-34; Lk 23:44-45; Malachi 4:5).
    .
    In any case, I think the point remains that whether it is Isaiah, Joel or the synoptic gospels, the idea of stars falling to Earth is discounted as a support for the flat-earthers' idea that small stars the size of meteors fall to a large flat disc, since in the globe-geocentric universe the stars can be big or small but can fall toward the Earth because the Earth is in the center of the universe, which corresponds to the idea in 2Peter 3:10-12 that the sky is rolled up.
    .
    Robert Sungenis
    .

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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #8 on: November 19, 2018, 12:23:18 PM »
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  • Smed, I hope you could get your hands on Sungenis' Flat Earth / Flat Wrong.  It's really worth the price!   It might just change your mind on some stuff!

    BTW, will you be listening to the debate tonight?  I inquired of the people putting on the Conference to see if it would be for sale as a DVD or CD.  I was sad to hear them answer in the negative.  Hope they reverse their decision!  I would at least like to get a transcript of the debate.
    Watching the debate now.
    Halfway through and Skiba definitely has the upper hand. He's very literate and knowledgeable, confident and easily understood.
    Sungenis unfortunately starts from a place of tremendous weakness. He argues the Bible is too difficult to understand. Terrible "strategy."

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #9 on: November 19, 2018, 12:30:45 PM »
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  • A lot of sophistry from Sungenis.

    Very disappointing.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #10 on: November 19, 2018, 01:31:24 PM »
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  • Sungenis says book of Apocalypse is only figurative, not literal, and that the stars will not literally fall to earth and impact the earth because the stars are too big.

    Again, he picks and chooses which Bible verses are literal to fit his personal cosmology.

    Very embarrassing that the Catholic functions like a Protestant, while Skiba adheres to the literal truth.

    The win belongs to Rob Skiba.


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #11 on: November 19, 2018, 01:37:25 PM »
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  • Brilliant masterstroke by Skiba to use Sungenis's own words against him: Sungenis says if there's a physical dome, the earth is flat. 

    Skiba then proceeds to use the Vatican's website which acknowledges the dome.


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #12 on: November 19, 2018, 02:13:50 PM »
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  • Sungenis gives embarrassing Bill Clinton-esque rebuttal to Skiba, saying it "depends on what your definition of 'in' is..."


    Truly, subpar all the way.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #13 on: November 22, 2018, 07:17:55 AM »
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  • .
    REPLY FROM ROBERT SUNGENIS
    .
    Robert Sungenis November 17, 2018 at 3:28 pm
    Dear David,
    Thank you for writing and sharing your thoughts about the debate. I have read most of your website on this issue and I quote you in my book, Flat Earth/Flat Wrong. Thank you for you untiring efforts to help the flat-earthers out of their dilemma.
    .
    Of course, as we can see here on CI, some flat-earthdom syndromers don't want to get out of their dilemma. Their dilemma is their comfort zone!
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    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Robert Sungenis to debate Rob Skiba
    « Reply #14 on: November 23, 2018, 06:05:14 AM »
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  • here is the debate.
    Sungenis is slippery as usual....



    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth


     

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