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Offline deutschcath

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rebuttal to Samuel
« on: February 12, 2018, 01:28:07 PM »
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  • The user called samuel posted an attempted debunking of a video on the flat earth.

    Here is the video




    And here is his post.

    Quote from: Samuel


    Flat Earth : Anacapa Islands

    Submitted by Samuel on Fri, 10/02/2017 - 16:00

    Author: Samuel Loeman
    Flat Earth - Anacapa

    In this article I would like to check out a video1 that has repeatedly been touted as absolute proof that the earth is flat. The video was taken from Miramar Beach, Santa Barbara, California looking towards the Anacapa Islands. The argument goes somewhere along the lines of "if the earth was curved we should not be able to see as much of the islands as we clearly see in this video, therefore the earth is flat."

    Bofore diving in, let me first point out the elephant in the room. We are here not arguing about flat vs globe, but about globe vs globe, in other words, how much curvature we see. It is glaringly obvious that there is at least some curvature drop visible close to sea level. It is therefore beyond me how any sane person could claim that this video proves the earth is flat.

    Some flat earthers decided to change the punch line to "we are not seeing the exact amount of curvature we should be seeing according to globe earthers, therefore.. the earth is flat". As if that is any improvement on their first attempt to be logical.

    Never mind, let's have a closer look anyway.

    I will go through this video in chronological order first, making a few remarks along the way, and at the end I will gather all the facts and do my own calculations.

    0:05

    We are immediately shown the date and time at which the video was supposedly taken: 02/07/2016 at 2:08 PM.

    Excellent, so the first thing I do is find the actual see level (or tide) at that particular date and time, as we'll need that later on for our calculations. A simple Google search2 will tell us that on that particular day there was a high tide of 6.3 ft at 7:55 AM and a low tide of -1.1 ft at 2:52 PM. Given that the first shot in the video was taken at the top of the hill, before descending to the beach, and assuming that it would take at least a few minutes to descend to the beach and to set up the camera, I believe it is fair to say that the essential part of the video was taken at or very close to low tide. In other words, at that time the see level was 7.4 ft below high tide.

    0:22

    We are given the heights of the three Anacapa islands, West Anacapa being 930 ft, Middle Anacapa 325 ft and East Anacapa 250 ft. Checking on Google Earth this appears to be correct.

    0:32

    We are given an approximate location of where the video was supposedly taken from. Going to the exact same spot on Google earth we find out that the elevation at that point is at least 9 ft, possible even more depending on where exactly the camera was placed. I hope we'll get another clue later on in the video.

    0:41

    We are given the distance to the highest point on Middle Anacapa Island: 31.61 miles.

    0:48

    We are given the height (not the elevation!) of the camera tripod as approximately 3 ft.

    0:52

    Here we see the first error creep in. We are shown a picture of the Earth Curve Calculator3 with some measurements already filled out for us. The "Eye height" value is given as 3 ft, which is incorrect. We have already seen that the camera is located at an elevation of at least 9ft, plus the 3 ft height of the tripod, making the "Eye level" at least 12 ft.

    0:56

    Now we are shown what the author would expect based on his figures so far, i.e. that islands should be hidden "by 580.68 ft of curvature drop". As already pointed out above, that figure is out (by 80ft at least) because of the incorrect elevation used in the calculations. Also note that there are still other factors which have not yet been included in the calculations. More on this soon.

    1:09

    The author tells us that there was a 5 ft ocean swell that day. I find this very hard to believe judging by the small waves we see at the beach. I would guestimate 2-3 ft maybe. Anyway, even if we go with 5 ft the author still makes yet another mistake. The swell is calculated as the difference in height between the crest and the trough of waves. If there is a 5ft swell, then that would mean the crest is 2.5 ft above sea level, and the trough is 2.5 ft below see level. For every amount of water rising above the sea level (the crest of a wave) there must be an equal amount of water being taken from below the sea level (the trough of the wave). Hence, a 5 ft swell would raise the "visual see level" by only half that amount, 2.5 ft.

    The Swell has nothing substantial to do with the video. It is an irrelevant insertion

    In this frame the author also gives us some figures about what "should" happen, but without giving us any clue how he came to these figures. Since his input variables are already skewed at this point I decided to simply make my own calculations.

    Instead of assuming an ocean swell has the same effect as an elevation change at the camera (an assumption the author seems to make), I believe the correct way is to account for the rise in horizon and calculate how much more or less of the target will be hidden. As promised, I will give you the calculations at the end. First, let's move on and see what else we're dished up.

    1:19

    The author now gives us a picture that is supposed to explain how he accounts for the ocean swell. No explanation is given, no calculations, nothing at all, except the figure mentioned before. How is any of these "critical" flat earthers supposed to verify the experiment for himself? Could it be that no one ever bothered doing this, and they are more than happy to go with what "the flat earth expert" tells them?

    1:22

    Here we finally get to the real pictures, the proof of the pudding!

    1:56

    Now we get a better idea of where exactly on the beach the camera was located: at the bottom of the steps, between the rocks, almost against the wall. Going back to Google earth, we find that this location has an elevation of 11ft. Which makes absolute sense, common sense that is. If the tripod was really located at zero elevation it would be washed away by the waves crashing onto the beach. Clearly, that is not what we see in this beautiful video.

    2:48

    We are given a picture taken from supposedly 560 ft elevation. This picture is obviously taken from a location close to the shore. However, since no location is given I went to Google Earth to find the nearest point with this elevation. Turns out that we have to go quite a long way to find such an elevation, either to the left or to the right. Problem is though that the coast line there is NOT perpendicular to the direction we are looking in. Which means, that by going either left or right, we are decreasing or increasing our distance to the Anacapa Islands. And this in turn means that the curvature drop also decreases or increases, and that we are therefore comparing apples with oranges.
    He is showing this so that we can see it is clearly the same place we are looking at and how little changes.

    If you look closely at the shape of West Anacapa Islands, you will also notice some rather significant discrepancies, which cannot be accounted for by the relatively small difference in elevation. Only a substantial move to the left or to the right can account for this different silhouette.

    And a third clue to suspect quite a different location in both images being compared is the fact that in one of them we see some offshore rigs, right in front of our target, while in the other picture we don't. No, they were not hidden by the curvature of the earth :)

    3:42

    The author indirectly admits that his camera was not really located at sea level, as now he walks towards (and down to) the sea! Now it gets really messy. Notice the funny shape in the frames around 4:18? I'll leave you to figure that one out by yourself for now.

    But notice how the camera is supposed to be at sea level now? How come then we are looking down onto the sea? How come we are not IN the water? How come the waves never reach the camera? Never mind, let's move on.

    OK, so let's do our own homework now.

    We'll start by taking a snapshot of both views, the first one taken at "sea level" and the second one at 560 ft elevation. Then we'll put them underneath each other and analyze what we see.

    Those Anacapa Islands are really nice, because the elevation figures are very cooperative. The highest peak in West Anacapa is 930 ft high. To the far left of that peak is a secondary peak, which according to Google Earth is 620 ft high. From these two elevations we can mark on the picture where the islands meet the see, i.e. zero elevation. Doing this on both snapshots gives us the following:

    Anacapa - Calc Sea Level

    The green line is the horizon, and the bottom yellow line is sea level at a distance of about 31 miles (which is how far these islands are from the camera).

    Does anyone else notice how these mountains in the top snapshot appear to be sinking into the sea? Really, this is all the proof a sane person needs to conclude that .. the earth is NOT flat. Still, some people would like the whole works, including the pudding, so let's carry on.

    Observation #1 : when standing close to sea level, there is about 300 ft of elevation hidden from view, while the rest of the island appears in perfectly normal proportions.

    Observation #2 : when looking at the same object from 560 ft elevation, there is only a few feet hidden from view.

    Let's start by calculating the amount of curvature drop we should see at 560 ft. According to the Earth Curvature Calculator4 it should be 4.6881 ft, which looks pretty close to what wee see in the bottom snapshot.

    Now let's now calculate the theoretical amount of curvature drop, close to sea level, based on the true figures mentioned above. Except, given that we are basing our three elevation lines in the above snapshots on the highest peak of West Anacapa Island, I will use that as the distance to our target, being 30.43 miles.

    With an elevation of 11 ft (between the rocks, close to the wall) plus 3 ft tripod height, totaling 14 ft elevation,  and a distance of 30.43 miles, the Earth Curve Calculator5 tells us that we should have a target hidden height of 445.5465 ft.

    Now we have to account for the ocean swell and the low tide. The ocean swell adds 2.5 ft to the level of the horizon (assuming that the 5 ft swell was an accurate assumption, which I very much doubt), while the low tide will subtract about half of the 7.4 ft difference between low and high tide (assuming that the sea level is the mean between high and low tide). Therefore, The horizon is altered by 2.5 - 7.4/2 = -1.2 ft, in other words, lowered by 1.2 ft relative to the mean sea level.

    Using simple geometry, dropping the horizon by a certain amount (h), will cause more of our target to be visible. How much more? To calculate this, we need to know the distance to the horizon (d) as well as the distance to our target (D). The amount of drop in curvature drop is : h * D / d = 1.2 * 31.63 / 4.58 = 8.3 ft. That's not much, but a 8 ft decrease in curvature drop is quite different from a 110 ft increase in curvature drop (as claimed in the frame at 1:09).

    So we're down to about 437 feet of curvature drop.

    Observation #3: the snapshot taken at 560 ft is nice and crisp, but the snapshot taken close to see level is hazy. Especially when looking closely at the smaller Anacapa Island, we see some strange anomalies. For example, look closely at the shape of the "mountains" in the following snapshots:

    Anacapa - Anomaly 1

    Anacapa - Anomaly 2

    Obviously, the Anacapa Islands are not shaped like a mushroom or like Tintin's cowlick. What we see is not what we know exists in that shape. Which brings us to the much dreaded subject of .. mirages.

    Check out the following article6 on the subject, especially this excerpt:

    Towering is quite common in polar regions and during the summer near large bodies of relatively cold water when compared to the overlying air temperatures. Such situations are common along North America's Pacific Northwest coastline during the summer. Towering can make coastal mountains appear to rise and fall in height throughout the course of the day when seen from across cold ocean waters. The illusion formed is of the peaks looming higher, and thus the mountains appear closer than they actually are. This illusion can be quite hazardous to sailors navigating by sight alone by causing them to believe they are closer to shore than they actually are.

    Given that the video was taken mid afternoon on a hot sunny day, along North America's Pacific Northwest coastline where mirages are common, I am quite satisfied that the remaining 137 ft in discrepancy is due to a mirage, combined with inaccuracies in "guestimating" the actual sea level, elevation, distances, tides, swells and calculations. No doubt some people will try to claim that this is yet another conspiracy, i.e. that mirages do not exist. Or as some have tried to claim, that mirages always appear upside down. Well, for starters, how else could we see a mushroom shaped mountain, if not because of an upside down mirage? And even so, some mirages (like the towering mirage mentioned above) are not inverted.

    Still, even if we discard what we clearly see, even then all that we are arguing about is the exact rate of curvature of the earth, and not whether this curvature exists or not.

    I know there will always be naysayers with itchy ears, preferring to believe in fables, but those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, let them hear and see.

    Stay tuned for the next episode!





    Samuel claims admits that 437 feet should not be normally visible. This is against the videos claim that 580 feet. On the difference between these two figures, there can be some discussion.

    However there cannot be a discussion with someone who thinks that 437 feet is a mirage.

    The reason is that this is clearly not a mirage because of the integrity and steadiness of the image. A simple youtube search or even our own experience shows us that mirages are very shaky, lacking in integrity and frequently (though not always) inverted. Added to this is the fact that they would not be consistently seen. Whereas this moutain would be visible on most days when the air is clear.

    We are glad to have cleared up this misunderstanding.


    Offline Samuel

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 03:34:28 PM »
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  • The user called samuel posted an attempted debunking of a video on the flat earth.

    Here is the video




    And here is his post.



    Samuel claims admits that 437 feet should not be normally visible. This is against the videos claim that 580 feet. On the difference between these two figures, there can be some discussion.

    However there cannot be a discussion with someone who thinks that 437 feet is a mirage.

    The reason is that this is clearly not a mirage because of the integrity and steadiness of the image. A simple youtube search or even our own experience shows us that mirages are very shaky, lacking in integrity and frequently (though not always) inverted. Added to this is the fact that they would not be consistently seen. Whereas this moutain would be visible on most days when the air is clear.

    We are glad to have cleared up this misunderstanding.

    Congratulations on being the first to at least try and think for yourself.

    However, you made an embarrassing mistake: According to my observations, about 300 ft of West Anacapa Island IS hidden from view (i.e. based on what we see), while according to my calculations it should have been 437 ft. That only leaves a discrepancy of 137 ft. So your claim about "someone who thinks that 437 feet is a mirage" is proof of your poor reading and comprehension of the matter.

    And you make another mistake when you insinuate that there is "clearly not a mirage because of the integrity and steadiness of the image". Anyone looking at the video, and especially at the two snapshots I took of discrepancies (mushroom and cow lick shaped blobs) must realize that the Anacapa Islands are not of that shape. We MUST be looking at a mirage, not the whole image, but a small layer just above the apparent horizon. And if you think those snapshots of the discrepancies are stable, have another look. They went by so fast that most people didn't even see them. Not very stable imho.

    Now consider all these facts which we would need to accurately make our calculations, but which we do NOT have :

    * The exact elevation the videos were taken from. The author claims they were taken "at sea level" but even a 3 year old can see they were not.
    * The exact level of the tide at the time the videos were taken. There was a difference of 7.4 ft between low and high tide on that day.
    * The exact reference point that Google uses as it's sea level, so that we can at least guestimate where the videos were taken from.
    * The amount of wave run up that day so we can at least guestimate where the actual sea level was that day.
    * The exact swell at open sea, or to be precisely, at the point of horizon, so we can calculate how much extra should be hidden from view.
    * The temperature of the sea water, as well as the air temperature, so we can judge how much of a mirage we expect to see.
    * The honesty of the author in representing his "facts" and videos.

    And now, consider that with an "inferior mirage" the true horizon seems lower than it actually is (as explained here: http://tradidi.com/etc/fe-disappearing-ship), I have no doubt that 137ft is well within the margin of error we expect to see, based on our estimated input data.

    And finally, the elephant in the room: on a flat earth we should be able to see ALL of the Islands, even at "sea level". Why can't we?


    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 03:51:35 PM »
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  • Congratulations on being the first to at least try and think for yourself.

    However, you made an embarrassing mistake: According to my observations, about 300 ft of West Anacapa Island IS hidden from view (i.e. based on what we see), while according to my calculations it should have been 437 ft. That only leaves a discrepancy of 137 ft. So your claim about "someone who thinks that 437 feet is a mirage" is proof of your poor reading and comprehension of the matter.

    And you make another mistake when you insinuate that there is "clearly not a mirage because of the integrity and steadiness of the image". Anyone looking at the video, and especially at the two snapshots I took of discrepancies (mushroom and cow lick shaped blobs) must realize that the Anacapa Islands are not of that shape. We MUST be looking at a mirage, not the whole image, but a small layer just above the apparent horizon. And if you think those snapshots of the discrepancies are stable, have another look. They went by so fast that most people didn't even see them. Not very stable imho.

    Now consider all these facts which we would need to accurately make our calculations, but which we do NOT have :

    * The exact elevation the videos were taken from. The author claims they were taken "at sea level" but even a 3 year old can see they were not.
    * The exact level of the tide at the time the videos were taken. There was a difference of 7.4 ft between low and high tide on that day.
    * The exact reference point that Google uses as it's sea level, so that we can at least guestimate where the videos were taken from.
    * The amount of wave run up that day so we can at least guestimate where the actual sea level was that day.
    * The exact swell at open sea, or to be precisely, at the point of horizon, so we can calculate how much extra should be hidden from view.
    * The temperature of the sea water, as well as the air temperature, so we can judge how much of a mirage we expect to see.
    * The honesty of the author in representing his "facts" and videos.

    And now, consider that with an "inferior mirage" the true horizon seems lower than it actually is (as explained here: http://tradidi.com/etc/fe-disappearing-ship), I have no doubt that 137ft is well within the margin of error we expect to see, based on our estimated input data.

    And finally, the elephant in the room: on a flat earth we should be able to see ALL of the Islands, even at "sea level". Why can't we?


    you're talking through your hat!

    Look at the mountains side by side. We see a good deal of the middle mountain, which shows us we are seeing at least 600 feet of the right mountain.

    Lying is a SIN samuel.

    And there's nothing to stop us from having some occasional distortion from the air, or even water on the lens, which can account for the mushroom. The image is clearly integral overall.

    YOU JUST DONT WANT TO ADMIT WHAT YOU SEE WITH YOUR EYES AND ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES OF IT. WHICH IS DISHONEST!!!
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 06:33:32 PM »
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  • you're talking through your hat!

    Look at the mountains side by side. We see a good deal of the middle mountain, which shows us we are seeing at least 600 feet of the right mountain.

    Lying is a SIN samuel.

    And there's nothing to stop us from having some occasional distortion from the air, or even water on the lens, which can account for the mushroom. The image is clearly integral overall.

    YOU JUST DONT WANT TO ADMIT WHAT YOU SEE WITH YOUR EYES AND ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES OF IT. WHICH IS DISHONEST!!!

    If lying is a sin, then why are you falsely accusing me of it?

    I was pleased to hear you're still alive, but I am not very pleased with the tone and content of your answer. It is sad to see what your flat earth obsession has done to you.

    Please, clearly state where I "lied" or else for ever hold your peace.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 06:38:28 PM »
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  • Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-



    Offline Samuel

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 06:42:35 PM »
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  • No matter how painful this whole flat earth hoax is, it has taught me a lot about people in general, and sad to say, about Traditional Catholics in particular.

    I am horrified. Maybe bishop Williamson was right after all: there is simply not enough common sense around anymore.

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 06:58:12 PM »
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  • you're talking through your hat!

    Look at the mountains side by side. We see a good deal of the middle mountain, which shows us we are seeing at least 600 feet of the right mountain.

    Lying is a SIN samuel.

    And there's nothing to stop us from having some occasional distortion from the air, or even water on the lens, which can account for the mushroom. The image is clearly integral overall.

    YOU JUST DONT WANT TO ADMIT WHAT YOU SEE WITH YOUR EYES AND ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES OF IT. WHICH IS DISHONEST!!!

    Let me try and help you once more.

    1. How much is 925 - 625? (925 being the hight of West Anacapa Island, 625 being "at least 600 feet" you mentioned "we are seeing of the right mountain")

    2. How much did I say the curvature drop is that we can clearly see?

    3. Compare your answer in #1 with the answer in #2.

    Either you must now explicitly retract your accusation of lying or explain to me where I lied. If you fail to do either of these two, I will have no other choice than to avoid you. You may then keep on spewing as much nonsense as you like, believing that you "won", I will no longer waste my time on you. But at the same time you will be held responsible for all the nonsense you spew and for proudly refusing to accept a fraternal correction in such a minor matter. Either way, God will sort you out, sooner or later.

    Offline St.Patrick

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #7 on: February 13, 2018, 06:54:46 AM »
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  • Let me try and help you once more.

    1. How much is 925 - 625? (925 being the hight of West Anacapa Island, 625 being "at least 600 feet" you mentioned "we are seeing of the right mountain")

    2. How much did I say the curvature drop is that we can clearly see?

    3. Compare your answer in #1 with the answer in #2.

    Either you must now explicitly retract your accusation of lying or explain to me where I lied. If you fail to do either of these two, I will have no other choice than to avoid you. You may then keep on spewing as much nonsense as you like, believing that you "won", I will no longer waste my time on you. But at the same time you will be held responsible for all the nonsense you spew and for proudly refusing to accept a fraternal correction in such a minor matter. Either way, God will sort you out, sooner or later.
    I think everyone should calm down here.
    I don't want to get into a long debate about this Samuel, but I think the basic point being made here is that whether it is 437 feet or 580 feet that we don't see, we ARE seeing at least 800 feet, and that can't be explained by refraction.
    I'm sure that if you have not lied, then kiwiboy will have no problem acknowledging it.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #8 on: February 13, 2018, 02:19:24 PM »
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  • I think everyone should calm down here.
    I don't want to get into a long debate about this Samuel, but I think the basic point being made here is that whether it is 437 feet or 580 feet that we don't see, we ARE seeing at least 800 feet, and that can't be explained by refraction.
    I'm sure that if you have not lied, then kiwiboy will have no problem acknowledging it.
    .
    What makes you so "sure" of that?
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 12:21:51 PM »
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  • Tena korua

    Samuel lies in two ways;

    1. by claiming that we are seeing less than we clearly are.

    2. by claiming that this is all down to refraction when obviously, it is not.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline sundance

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 11:16:21 PM »
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  •  I think Samuel is so full of pride that he does not want to entertain for a minute that he has been lied to his whole life and is defending a lie on www.
    Truth goes through 3 main processes:
    • It is riducled
    • it is vehemently denied
    • it is accepted as fact.
    All  you need to do is view all the interesting facts with an open mind, after first saying a prayer to Holy Ghost to take away your blindess.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #11 on: February 16, 2018, 08:13:47 AM »
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  • I think Samuel is so full of pride that he does not want to entertain for a minute that he has been lied to his whole life and is defending a lie on www.

    I don't think it's pride.  There's a psychological phenomenon called cognitive dissonance.  It's extremely difficult for people to let go of how they have organized reality in their minds.  It's incredibly scary and uncomfortable for most people.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #12 on: February 16, 2018, 08:16:11 AM »
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  • No matter how painful this whole flat earth hoax is, it has taught me a lot about people in general, and sad to say, about Traditional Catholics in particular.

    I am horrified. Maybe bishop Williamson was right after all: there is simply not enough common sense around anymore.

    If, indeed, the earth is flat .. you'll never know it because you've already closed your mind off to the truth.

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #13 on: February 25, 2018, 04:39:31 PM »
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  • I don't think it's pride.  There's a psychological phenomenon called cognitive dissonance.  It's extremely difficult for people to let go of how they have organized reality in their minds.  It's incredibly scary and uncomfortable for most people.

    It can be both.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: rebuttal to Samuel
    « Reply #14 on: March 05, 2018, 05:47:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Samuel on February 12, 2018, 04:42:35 PM
    Quote
    No matter how painful this whole flat earth hoax is, it has taught me a lot about people in general, and sad to say, about Traditional Catholics in particular.

    I am horrified. Maybe bishop Williamson was right after all: there is simply not enough common sense around anymore.

    If, indeed, the earth is flat .. you'll never know it because you've already closed your mind off to the truth.
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    Ludicrous.
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    The earth is not "flat" any more than water is "dry" or fire is "cold."
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    Maybe YOU will never know it because your mind is closed and you refuse to make any of the simple observations I have described.
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    As for myself, I don't have to rely on raw, unsubstantiated "belief" because I have been to the other side of the mountain.
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    I have seen for myself the reality first hand of the earth's curvature so I have no doubts.
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    If I were to say otherwise I would be like you, a liar. But what I say is true, and I'm not trying to deceive anyone.
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    Consequently, I have provided for the readers of this forum descriptions of several tests you can do yourself.
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    They are very simple experiments which provide first-hand empirical proof of the curvature of the earth.
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    But no one is interested.
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    Like Samuel, this fact and experience has taught me a lot about human nature.
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    What are you so afraid of? The vitriolic ridicule from die-hard dogmatic flat-earthers? Or crypto-Jew impostors?
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    I have given you what you need to know the truth and you still say something stupid like "If, indeed the earth is flat..."
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