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Author Topic: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus  (Read 727 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
« on: June 12, 2018, 08:22:03 AM »
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  • While I still need a longer break from these discussions, I recently came across some information that I have not noticed appearing on this forum before.  I thought I would post it now, but probably won't be available to discuss it for a while.

    The Catholic Church never taught a specific shape for the earth (at the level of magisterial teaching) because it is not important to the faith.   She clearly, however, had no problem with her members believing that the earth is a globe.   Throughout the medieval period, from at least as early as St. Bede (circa 700 AD), globe earth was taught and/or accepted by multiple Saints.  It was also the cosmological model taught in the Church-run universities of that time. The overwhelming evidence from primary sources is that virtually all educated people believed the earth was a sphere.  There is also some evidence that the less educated knew this  too.  For example, vernacular works by Chaucer and Dante contain references to the globe earth. 

    In spite of all this evidence, it is a common contention by the flat earth proponents on this forum that the idea of a spherical earth was introduced to the Catholic world by Copernicus in his work De Revolutionibus published in 1543. They are simply wrong.  In addition to the above evidence, there is an official Church docuмent, published 50 years before this, which shows acceptance of globe earth . 

    When both Spain and Portugal were exploring and laying claims to non-European territories, the Church issued a docuмent in 1493 describing the boundaries for these claims, called Inter Caetera.  In this docuмent we see references that clearly assume a globe earth, such as,

    Quote
    ...all islands and mainlands found and to be found, discovered and to be discovered towards the west and south, by drawing and establishing a line from the Arctic pole, namely the north, to the Antarctic pole, namely the south...
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Alex06/alex06inter.htm

    There is no flat earth model in which one can draw a straight line from the North Pole to the South Pole.  Pope Alexander VI, like all other educated Catholics, obviously thought of the earth as a globe.

    What then is the origin of the false idea that globe earth came from Pythagoras by way of Copernicus?  It does not come from secular history books.  While there have been (probably Freemason-influenced) false claims that Catholics believed the earth was flat until Columbus proved otherwise, they do not attribute the change to Copernicus.  That idea comes from heretical anti-Catholic sites like this one: http://greggfetter.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-flat-earth-movement-is-it-for-real.html


    Quote
    Then in 1543, just three days before he died, a manuscript entitled “Small Commentary”,  written by Nicolaus Copernicus became public.  This manuscript contained Copernicus’ theory for a Heliocentric earth— an earth that revolved around the SUN.

    In addition to this, Copernicus theorized, as had other philosophers before him that the earth and celestial bodies were spheres.

    Although there was no way to prove these theories, because no one could get high enough to see the earth from a distance, Copernicus’ Heliocentric and globe earth model became the prominent world view for the next 500 years.

    This site sounds very much like the flat earthers here when it comes to condemning Copernicus,  NASA, and the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr, until it gets to this part: 


    Quote
    To understand why NASA would fake a globe earth you have to understand the PLAYERS and their motivation.

    The REAL players are those who observed nαzι Germany from a far and tried to influence their decisions.  Those players came from the Roman Catholic Church.  Why would the Catholic church be interested in nαzι Germany?  Because the goals of nαzι Germany matched those of the Catholic church—that of a nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr.

    As I discussed in my article Misdirection, the Catholic church is the embodiment of the MYSTERIES, a Satanic religion formed in ancient Babylon.  The Mysteries were trying to create a one world government until God put an end to it at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9)

    The modern flat earth movement is based on historical inaccuracies and the lies of anti-Catholics. These are people who claim that Catholicism is a Satanic religion. No Catholic should believe anything they say or have anything to do with them.


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #1 on: June 12, 2018, 09:13:30 AM »
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  • It's sad that you have to make it a conspiracy that  "someone" wanted to make it look "as if" the Church believed the earth was flat.

    The Church is made up of its believers who all believed their senses and the Bible. Not some priest holed up in a tower studying Pythagoras against Scripture.



    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #2 on: June 12, 2018, 10:18:35 AM »
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  • Jayne,

    Repeating the same stupid thing over and over again, won't make it true. You have run out of things to say.

    The poles work on a flat earth as well. It just means from one "end"  to the other.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 10:24:54 AM »
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  • While I still need a longer break from these discussions, I recently came across some information that I have not noticed appearing on this forum before.  I thought I would post it now, but probably won't be available to discuss it for a while.

    The Catholic Church never taught a specific shape for the earth (at the level of magisterial teaching) because it is not important to the faith.   She clearly, however, had no problem with her members believing that the earth is a globe.   Throughout the medieval period, from at least as early as St. Bede (circa 700 AD), globe earth was taught and/or accepted by multiple Saints.  It was also the cosmological model taught in the Church-run universities of that time. The overwhelming evidence from primary sources is that virtually all educated people believed the earth was a sphere.  There is also some evidence that the less educated knew this  too.  For example, vernacular works by Chaucer and Dante contain references to the globe earth.  

    No one said the Church (at the level of magisterial teaching) directly taught earth is flat, but She defended against the cosmological models of paganism to include the globe.  What is maintained in these threads is that between Scripture and the Fathers, there is enough evidence to know where the Church stood and that the earth is not a globe.  As such, on that evidence alone, it is to be believed by Catholics.  Everything the Church teaches can be sourced from Scripture and the literal interpretation of Scripture with regard to science, according to the encyclical PD, must not be ignored or denied. To say that the globe was the cosmological model taught in the Church-run universities in the 700's is not only inaccurate, it misses the point entirely.  Universities have been notorious for teaching error, Catholic or not.  Consider Notre Dame.  This was such a problem in St. Thomas Aquinas's time as to be a scandal of epic proportions.  

    In spite of all this evidence, it is a common contention by the flat earth proponents on this forum that the idea of a spherical earth was introduced to the Catholic world by Copernicus in his work De Revolutionibus published in 1543. They are simply wrong.  In addition to the above evidence, there is an official Church docuмent, published 50 years before this, which shows acceptance of globe earth .  

    Why do you say the flat earth proponents on this forum contend that the spherical earth was introduced to the Catholic world by Copernicus?  We've had many discussions about Pliny the Elder, Pythagoras and other BC characters who promoted the globe.  Copernicus is credited for re-introducing the globe to greater numbers of people because he wrote a book that spread via the printing press.  It would have been near impossible to teach another cosmology than Scriptural cosmology to the masses prior to that.   Not one person here says Copernicus invented the globe earth.

    When both Spain and Portugal were exploring and laying claims to non-European territories, the Church issued a docuмent in 1493 describing the boundaries for these claims, called Inter Caetera.  In this docuмent we see references that clearly assume a globe earth, such as,
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Alex06/alex06inter.htm

    There is no flat earth model in which one can draw a straight line from the North Pole to the South Pole.  Pope Alexander VI, like all other educated Catholics, obviously thought of the earth as a globe.

    Why do you say there is no flat earth model in which one can draw a straight line from the Arctic pole to the Antarctic pole? While it is true that most maps do not agree with each other, there are maps that show development of thought between flat earth and the globe.  In this particular specimen, it shows more or less Jerusalem in the middle, with the poles at top and bottom, where a line can be drawn straight through.   https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/OrteliusWorldMap1570.jpg

    What then is the origin of the false idea that globe earth came from Pythagoras by way of Copernicus?  It does not come from secular history books.  While there have been (probably Freemason-influenced) false claims that Catholics believed the earth was flat until Columbus proved otherwise, they do not attribute the change to Copernicus.  That idea comes from heretical anti-Catholic sites like this one: http://greggfetter.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-flat-earth-movement-is-it-for-real.html


    This site sounds very much like the flat earthers here when it comes to condemning Copernicus,  NASA, and the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr, until it gets to this part:  


    The modern flat earth movement is based on historical inaccuracies and the lies of anti-Catholics. These are people who claim that Catholicism is a Satanic religion. No Catholic should believe anything they say or have anything to do with them.

    I'm not certain what you're getting at here, but rest assured, there are many people from many differ religions who can see with their own eyes that earth is not a globe.  And since the true religion predated all others, reality is logically going to follow, at least at first and for some (in honor of their traditions) forever.  History attests to the flat geocentric earth and few in the first 1/2 of human existance, believed earth to be a ball, except pagan elite who corrupted as far as possible, every one they could including Catholics.  Interestingly, the real promoters (not just passive believers) are all of the occult pagan persuasion.  

    https://books.google.com/books?id=rAUIAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA4&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=twopage&q&f=false
    Page 17  You will find this quote: "Throughout the theological world there was an outcry, "atheism" and war raged fiercely."  This happened as a result of Kant and Newton promoting aspects of their pagan notion regarding nebula.  So, already it can be seen the Church was at war with the pagans of that time and their heresies.   On page 19, in the references at the bottom of the page, there are several books sourced that expound on the raging war between the Catholic Church and the pagan theories of cosmology.   There is quoted on the same page, a professor at Cambridge who said: "No attempt at reconciling Genesis in the exacting requirements of modern sciences has ever been known to succeed without entailing a degree of special pleading or forced interpretation to which, in such a question, we should be wise to have no recourse."  

    People back then knew they were going against the Church and Scripture.  The reason no one spoke much about flat earth prior to the 1500's is because flat earth was a given.  Afterward, war raged with the pagans BECAUSE of the Copernican Doctrine.   




    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #4 on: June 12, 2018, 10:40:37 AM »
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  • There is no flat earth model in which one can draw a straight line from the North Pole to the South Pole.

    You're assuming that there is in fact a single-point South Pole.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #5 on: June 12, 2018, 11:04:06 AM »
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  • You're assuming that there is in fact a single-point South Pole.
    There is often an assumption of a single point for the South Pole, and although I'm not saying there isn't, there are other depictions of earth that show the North Pole at the top of the map of earth, and the South Pole at the bottom of the map of earth.  And if one were to include the mind of the Pope that wrote the encyclical Jaynek sources, you can see the Pope thinks of both North and South in terms of a single pole.  This map also shows Jerusalem more or less in the center, something no Catholic worth his salt at the time would contest, and the layout of earth with single points for North and South.  It seems to be a hybrid introducing the globe or promoting the globe, yet giving quarter to the understanding of the Church regarding the size, shape and layout on a flat map.   https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/OrteliusWorldMap1570.jpg
    This map found here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cartography#Earliest_known_reference_to_a_map,_or_'tu'

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #6 on: June 12, 2018, 11:37:27 AM »
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  • The Fra Mauro map upends Jaynek's applecart.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #7 on: June 20, 2018, 06:00:01 AM »
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  • You're assuming that there is in fact a single-point South Pole.
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    So you're suggesting that all the circuмpolar flights of aircraft for the past 70 years have been fake?
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    And the one currently scheduled for late October is likewise a hoax or a hologram or a magician's trick, or what?
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    What about the available photographs of the permanent structures built at the south pole, are those all CGI or what?
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #8 on: August 24, 2018, 12:50:11 PM »
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  • .
    JayneK goes out on a limb (as usual) to hold out a banner of fact for all to see! 
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    Quote
    The modern flat earth movement is based on historical inaccuracies and the lies of anti-Catholics. These are people who claim that Catholicism is a Satanic religion. No Catholic should believe anything they say or have anything to do with them.
    .
    And immediately, flat-earthdom syndromers demonstrate their intractable nescience by kicking the goad. Interesting.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #9 on: August 24, 2018, 10:28:56 PM »
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  • Thanks for unearthing all these great arguments against the globe, Neil.  

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Proof the Church accepted Globe Earth before Copernicus
    « Reply #10 on: August 25, 2018, 06:16:24 PM »
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  • Thanks for unearthing all these great arguments against the globe, Neil.  
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    Another typo for happenby -- great arguments against the "flat" earth. But flat-earthdom syndromers make lots of typos.
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    In your own words, "Just sloppy."
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